[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[rogerpepitone]

The Halloween party in Episode 2 was almost certainly set up by Kumasawa and possibly Jessica as a surprise for Maria.
Reasons for Kumasawa:
1) She was described as having disappeared earlier on the 4th, when they were cleaning up in preparation for the visit. (She was working in the chapel.)
2) She wasn't present when they were outside the chapel on the 5th. (Anybody innocently involved would have explained it.)
3) On the 5th, right after everyone arrives, she suggests eating some "delicious pumpkin-shaped cookies".

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

How is Kinzo's death a good thing for Krauss? °°;

Anyway I don't think I understand your logic. Some of things you said are true, but how are they related with our current problem? Or how are they related with each other?

let's try to make order

first: I disagree that in EP3 the truth about Kinzo was uncovered. If that was the case there's no way the younger siblings would be that cooperative with Krauss and Natsuhi. Cocealing someone's death is a crime! Eva would never let that pass and allow Krauss to run around with a gun.

Second: why would that lead to the death of all the servants?

third: "the barrier is dead" could simply mean that they couldn't hide Kinzo's death anymore and so they made him a first twilight victim. In EP5 that you mention, the barrier was also broken, and yet the truth about Kinzo was not uncovered. Therefore the barrier of Kinzo's study being broken doesn't necessarily means that Kinzo's death status was exposed.

1) We don't know the state of Kinzo's corpse, or where it is kept. And the only way to be certain that a lot of time as passed since it's death would be to look at that corpse. So as long as the siblings doesn't see the corpse they cannot tell when did he die. So i'm not saying that they found out that Krauss hid the corpse for more then 1 year, they just understood that he is certainly dead. So the illusion of him being alive could no more being mantained (and that is, the barrier)

2) This i don't really know, trying to understand the killing order i've just taken it as a fact. Kinzo truth discovered (before 1st twilight)---> servants killed. Maybe Krauss blamed them for Kinzo's death...

And also, this is related to ep4 becouse i don't think that they saw Kinzo's corpse to "recognize his existance"

Well... this is just one possible truth, i'm not sure myself that this theory is true, but it explain a lot of things, including Lamba and Bern wanting to "save" Kinzo in ep5

[Judoh]

The weird thing I find about episode 5 and beyond is that they completely contradict a statement made by Beatrice in episode 3. Of course it was in white text, but I thought there was truth in it when I first heard it. Basically she said the more Battler surrendered to the existence of magic the more power Beato had and the more people she could summon. She basically said that the more power she gained the more reality would degrade and would seem less and less comprehensible. That was basically her excuse for why Ronove was suddenly added as a character. In episode 5 though Beatrice has just suffered a great loss. She's stopped thinking and has lost her power. Yet Ronove, Gaap, the siestas and even more characters still appear even though she's lost all her power and has stepped down as Battler's opponent.

So the only way I think I can justify this is if Battler somehow gave more power to the witch's side (Lambda and Bern) by getting Beato to stand down and therefore new characters can still appear in future games. Or that the new characters are not supernatural entities and represent the strength of the Human side. But if the reason new characters appear in Chiru is because they represent the strength of the human side it makes even less sense since the humans side should want even less people to suspect.

[Honoakari]

Since Beatrice wanted Battler to actually reach the truth, what she said can be interpreted like this: the more it takes Battler to reach the truth, the more people will be introduced in the story in order to secretly help him (like Virgilia, Ronove and Gaap). However, since Beatrice died and Battler found out the truth, I doubt this can be applied to the new characters from now on.

[imaginari]

Originally Posted by D0rYn

Since Beatrice wanted Battler to actually reach the truth, what she said can be interpreted like this: the more it takes Battler to reach the truth, the more people will be introduced in the story in order to secretly help him (like Virgilia, Ronove and Gaap). However, since Beatrice died and Battler found out the truth, I doubt this can be applied to the new characters from now on.

Or she could have made it up. Until EP5, nearly everything that we've heard about magic and the game rules came from her.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The weird thing I find about episode 5 and beyond is that they completely contradict a statement made by Beatrice in episode 3. Of course it was in white text, but I thought there was truth in it when I first heard it. Basically she said the more Battler surrendered to the existence of magic the more power Beato had and the more people she could summon. She basically said that the more power she gained the more reality would degrade and would seem less and less comprehensible. That was basically her excuse for why Ronove was suddenly added as a character. In episode 5 though Beatrice has just suffered a great loss. She's stopped thinking and has lost her power. Yet Ronove, Gaap, the siestas and even more characters still appear even though she's lost all her power and has stepped down as Battler's opponent.

But that's exactly it.

Since Battler has become both the Game Master and a witch, he's completely surrendered to the existence of magic, and so the story has become even less comprehensible than it was in the Question Arcs.

It has nothing to do with Beato anymore... or does it?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

But that's exactly it.

Since Battler has become both the Game Master and a witch, he's completely surrendered to the existence of magic, and so the story has become even less comprehensible than it was in the Question Arcs.

It has nothing to do with Beato anymore... or does it?

Dlanor and the others appeared before that though. So that doesn't explain why they appeared.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

In other words can we be 100% sure that the ones at the family conference in EP4 didn't simply recognize Kinzo's corpse?

If someone rolled his corpse out and displayed it to everyone, why did it end up getting burned later? Or if it was burned and then discovered afterward, it would look like a horrific murder, so why didn't anyone tell the cousins about it on the phone?

--

Actually, Kinzo's burning raises a lot of difficult questions for EP4. It seems to stink up the whole mansion very quickly, and anyone who doesn't know about Kinzo's death and comes looking for the source is going to immediately assume a murder has occurred. The burning makes no sense unless the burner wanted that assumption to be made. But who was supposed to find the body, and why?

Spoiler for Possibilities:

Battler would be the obvious first choice. But Kinzo was supposed to be running around murdering people with witches and magic, so having him show up murdered without an explanation tends to break the illusion being presented. How come nobody, not even Beato, said anything to Battler about it? If anything, the fact that Beato didn't say anything to weave it into her story should imply that she didn't even know about it (maybe the stench hadn't made it up to the second floor yet).

You could argue that Beato burned the corpse deliberately in order to leave a hint for Battler. On the other hand, the letters in the first two games suggest that the objective of this magic show was never for someone to "catch the culprit", and they actively scold the survivors for wasting time trying to do so. It's a fantasy, not a mystery, and it wasn't intended to be solvable by the survivors in the first place.

If not Battler, then the corpse was put on display for someone else. But unless other murders had already been discovered by some survivors in the mansion, even exposing the corpse at all would be bad for Natsuhi and Krauss, since they were already under suspicion. Add on the burning, and now it looks like they're guilty of murdering him and trying to dispose of the body too. And yet only their co-conspirators knew where the body was hidden. Maybe one of them was trying to frame Natsuhi and Krauss for some reason, but what would that accomplish that just leaving the body out in the hallway wouldn't?

If murders had already occurred, then maybe the Kinzo conspirators were trying to camouflage his death as the work of the culprit. That would mean they had a lot of freedom of movement though, so why didn't any of them break character and warn the cousins that a real murderer was on the loose?

Alternately, you could say that Kinzo was actually burned by the murderer to create an additional fake victim, completely separate from Beato's illusion. That seems odd though, since he's listed as a 9th twilight victim and there's already a couple of extras. He doesn't fit with the first twilight since there's already six victims, and he wasn't staked either.

And could the person who burned the body actually be sure that it would be identified as Kinzo? It's been largely taken for granted, but the polydactyly is a pretty small detail and not everyone would necessarily know about it or notice the six toes on the corpse. The burner would have to be with the discovery party and point it out themselves, or otherwise be content with the body being potentially unidentified. On the other hand, if it was identified, the other Kinzo conspirators would immediately know that one of their own was a traitor.

Can we even really be sure the corpse belongs to Kinzo in EP4? While somewhat rare, polydactyly is not uniquely identifying, and we are missing the corpse of one other islander. Polydactyly is also not so rare that Kinzo couldn't have conceivably found an orphan at Fukuin who had it and deliberately hired or adopted him on that basis.

[rogerpepitone]

Kanon is a small kid, and I'm pretty sure Kinzo's a big guy. Besides, it's almost certainly the same corpse in episodes 1, 3, and 4, and everybody's ruled out as the corpse in one of those episodes.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Kanon is a small kid, and I'm pretty sure Kinzo's a big guy. Besides, it's almost certainly the same corpse in episodes 1, 3, and 4, and everybody's ruled out as the corpse in one of those episodes.

I was under the impression that they were roughly the same height. I don't think it really matters though, because we're talking about thoroughly burnt skeletons. Battler hasn't even seen Kinzo since he was twelve, and isn't really in a position to judge whether a skeleton is the right height to be him.

As for it being the same corpse as EP1 and EP3, assumptions are made to be abused by mystery authors, and Ryukishi said he loves nested traps. I actually suspected for a long time that the burnt corpse in all episodes belonged to Beatrice since its gender wasn't identifiable, so it's kind of satisfying to be able to revive that theory in some form.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Dlanor and the others appeared before that though. So that doesn't explain why they appeared.

Because Battler had begun to accept Beatrice's existence long before that, right?

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

If anything, the fact that Beato didn't say anything to weave it into her story should imply that she didn't even know about it (maybe the stench hadn't made it up to the second floor yet).

Wait, are you saying that Beatrice didn't show Kinzo being burned in a magic scene in Ep4? If so, I'd like to remind you that it was shown, in much the same way as in Ep3.

If that wasn't what you were talking about, please just ignore me.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Wait, are you saying that Beatrice didn't show Kinzo being burned in a magic scene in Ep4? If so, I'd like to remind you that it was shown, in much the same way as in Ep3.

Piece Beatrice didn't say anything about it to Piece Battler. We only have Meta Beato's word that it was part of the narrative. Piece Battler had no idea why the corpse was burned or who did it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Because Battler had begun to accept Beatrice's existence long before that, right?

In episode 2 and 3 he stopped thinking and accepted her. Episode 4 was different because the exact opposite happened. Beato was the one that stopped thinking when Battler basically denied magic having any part in the murders and she lost all her power as a witch. So what your saying makes absolutely no sense until after he becomes a sorcerer.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Piece Beatrice didn't say anything about it to Piece Battler. We only have Meta Beato's word that it was part of the narrative. Piece Battler had no idea why the corpse was burned or who did it.

Does he ever have any idea about things like this?

Originally Posted by Judoh

In episode 2 and 3 he stopped thinking and accepted her. Episode 4 was different because the exact opposite happened. Beato was the one that stopped thinking when Battler basically denied magic having any part in the murders and she lost all her power as a witch. So what your saying makes absolutely no sense until after he becomes a sorcerer.

Hmm. I'll have to think about this some more.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Does he ever have any idea about things like this?

Well, no. But at least this time he's got an excuse, right?

[Judoh]

I just noticed something. Ange called herself Gretel in episode 4 right? You think that's what inspired the character Gretel that works for Dlanor?

Actually now that I think about it... Maybe Ryukishi planned to have Ange come to the island in episode 3 and that was the trick?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I just noticed something. Ange called herself Gretel in episode 4 right? You think that's what inspired the character Gretel that works for Dlanor?

Actually now that I think about it... Maybe Ryukishi planned to have Ange come to the island in episode 3 and that was the trick?

That's what I was thinking, actually (and posting elsewhere about two minutes ago o_O). Somebody needs to write that fanfic, I mean it.

The character that works for Dlanor is Gertrude, though, isn't she?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That's what I was thinking, actually (and posting elsewhere about two minutes ago o_O). Somebody needs to write that fanfic, I mean it.

The character that works for Dlanor is Gertrude, though, isn't she?

Oh yeah I guess she was.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Can we even really be sure the corpse belongs to Kinzo in EP4? While somewhat rare, polydactyly is not uniquely identifying, and we are missing the corpse of one other islander. Polydactyly is also not so rare that Kinzo couldn't have conceivably found an orphan at Fukuin who had it and deliberately hired or adopted him on that basis.

Hrmm, no one would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight, but on the other hand, there is no objective means of proving that a particular corpse belongs to Ushiromiya Kinzo. Those two reds can't contradict each other, so...

• Kinzo != Kinzo's corpse for the purposes of red truth?
• The two statements refer to two different people named Ushiromiya Kinzo?
• Everyone can be certain a corpse belongs to Kinzo, but they can't prove it? (Does that even make sense?)

[SeagullCrazy]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Hrmm, no one would mistake Ushiromiya Kinzo by sight, but on the other hand, there is no objective means of proving that a particular corpse belongs to Ushiromiya Kinzo. Those two reds can't contradict each other, so...

• Kinzo != Kinzo's corpse for the purposes of red truth?
• The two statements refer to two different people named Ushiromiya Kinzo?
• Everyone can be certain a corpse belongs to Kinzo, but they can't prove it? (Does that even make sense?)

Two more possibilities I can think of:

-"Ushiromiya Kinzo" only refers to "the living Kinzo"
-The corpse is burnt before the game starts, so there is no way for the detective to confirm it before the identity is questioned

And this makes me wonder something else: If the identities of all unidentifiable corpses are guaranteed, and therefore no body double tricks exist, would Kinzo's corpse be considered unidentifiable? Or a body double? Or would it prove that it is definitely Kinzo?