2011-11-19, 20:50 | Link #25741 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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------------- I think that Fictional-Yasu's motive has been very clearly exposed as love-insanity. Episode 7 is it; there's really nothing "deeper" to find about it. Didn't RK07 say the mystery was over with episode 7? I mean we got Fictional-Yasu's woe-is-me motive and Will's deconstruction of most of the "how"dunnits. Umineko really is at least partially answered. The biggest questions that remain are about R-Prime. And regarding those, I still think that Yasu is innocent, that Ikuko is Yasu, and that the bottle-stories were written after the incident. |
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2011-11-19, 22:07 | Link #25742 | ||
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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I'm thinking this because in his interviews he still talks about wanting to protect something; and that there are still lines of questioning where he doesn't want to answer yet. Mostly to do with Yasu, I think? This is in the March interview that Lyrical is still translating, I believe. Unless I missed the posting... 8) So there's still some stuff left over, as you say. |
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2011-11-20, 05:58 | Link #25743 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
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What happened in Rokkenjima Prime was never meant to be revealed in the story, I think. This, however, does not mean the story can't also be played as a mystery. This very thread should be a clear indicator of that. We got the love story Ryukishi intended to tell and seven episodes worth of mysteries which can all be solved with the knowledge Battler acquired before becoming a sorcerer. The mystery was to be solvable based on the first four episodes, remember? I understand you people feel cheated but this continued discussion has misdirected people a lot and calling Ryukishi a bad writer based on your weekly changing interpretations. As stated some time ago, I'd like to hear some theories and interpretations on the series.
I'm sorry for the rant. I just felt people were getting stuck on saying Ryukihi's stupid so there's no reason to reason, as the writer is just a stupid cheat. Gather yourselves |
2011-11-20, 06:07 | Link #25744 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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We've already gone trough that and we basically feel that if thats the case then RK07 is just a lazy writer. There's no reason to not create an adequate and satisfying interpretation of prime, if he isn''t capable its more likely that he's just a lazy writer, which would put him in the category of "bad" in my book.
We've already reached the point of getting "stuck" with our current theories, we just cant come up with more with the current information. We can wait till comiket and get a copy of Our Confession or wait till Lyrical finishes his translation of the last interview so we can have more to work with. If you want to read the other theories you can always jump 200 pages back and work yourself up. |
2011-11-20, 08:59 | Link #25745 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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In might seems a pretty meaningless challenge if it wasn't for the fact there's people who say 'I'm not satisfied with the ending you created but I couldn't come up with anything better'. Challenging readers in this way people who couldn't come up with anything better can't really complain. Also if Higurashi's novel ending is the same as the anime... well, in my opinion the reader can come up with everything. Ryukishi's solution included making Hanyu part of the group and allowing her to use magic powers to stop Takano's bullet... or so it looked. Plus later we see Takano's past was changed so that her parents didn't die in the incident. If doing this is allowed... then everything can be allowed. The problem with Umineko is that the setting seems to be much more strict. Ange goes back in time? Cool but she can't stop the tragedy or influence it in any way. Magic is used? Cool but it's actually all a trick. New characters are added? Also cool but it's all a lie. In truth those guys never went on Rokenjima and never influenced anything. Umineko denies any chance at reaching a good ending that includes 'The Rokkenjima tragedy never took place'. The best we can get is 'someone survived to it' and 'Ange dealed with the tragedy in a way that didn't lead her to die or to kill people'. In short, if there's a duel between the writer and the reader, it's not a duel about who can think at the better ending but if either the reader can figure out what lead the characters to such ending or can't. Due to this we have a single answer that, due to lack of details can be interpretated in different ways, sort of like saying that: Single answer: the culprit is X Different interpretations: he did it for this reason or this other or this other. Or there could have been something else that will be subjected to different interpetation that's not the reason. |
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2011-11-20, 09:09 | Link #25746 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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I generally don't think of George as the main possible culprit.
At best I think he might have had a scuffle with Battler... however I saw some pics of Cross that made me suspect there could be something more in him. One was the pic with him and the money someone showed in the forum (I can't remember if in this discussion thread or in the one for Ougon), the other has him sitting on a throne like chair and it's on the main page of the Cross game. They seem to imply George has a craving for money and power... when in the visual novel he looked like he was ready to give up everything and try to rebuilt his life on his own for Shannon... Of course I could only see the pics out of contest so maybe I'm mistaken but... anyone has thoughts about this? Is George deep down greedy and ambitious? Has he found out that Shannon is the real heir to Kinzo and wants to marry her just for this? Did he murder someone on Rokkenjima Prime and Eva took the blame to cover up her son's sin? |
2011-11-20, 09:26 | Link #25747 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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George has been like that since X, the xbox game. I still havent seen any of his endings though so I cant really comment if it plays into it or if its just a joke by the developers.
And there was a point where he was misogynistic egotistical bastard but we dont really see it in the novel. He just kinda explains it that he used to be like that before he met Shannon.Whether or not he's still like that and is just using Shannon for gain is up to our interpretation. Either way he does have a tendency of getting shot in the face in the stories, then again this could be said of all the characters |
2011-11-20, 09:30 | Link #25748 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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You might be right but, if you are, I'm going to be disappointed since I don't find this solution really satisfing... -_- |
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2011-11-20, 09:32 | Link #25749 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Unable to make a final decision she decides to create a "Kinzo-gamble". She creates a situation with a very low probability to give a positive outcome with a huge threat in case of failure as incentive. The system of the "bomb" already existed and she only needed to use that. The improbable positive outcome is supposedly Battler remembering the promise and\or finding the whodunit, whydunit, howdunit of Yasu's serial murder scenario. Clair's attitude however makes me think that she didn't really believe that such a "miracle" would happen, and if the stories were written before (as I believe) then definitely she didn't believe so, since in at least two of them Battler fails (and I think "Land" is no exception). The epitaph challenge was probably meant for the adults, to give them a condition to win and adding to herself a condition to lose. Albeit if we can trust EP7 tea party to some degree she planned a secondary trap even in that case, by creating the condition to make them kill each other (that's still her loss though). So far I think this reconstruction is pretty solid. However a few pages before we were discussing about how very little sympathy we can feel for the Yasu of this scenario. The fact that it's a "fictional Yasu" and not "real Yasu" to me bear little importance. In fact there's no real Yasu in the end, they are both fictionals. I see no reason why should I use different standards to judge them. Quote:
The final plan involved several accomplices in a fake murder scenario. It had to be fake until the end because 1) she couldn't get many accomplices otherwise. 2) she couldn't really hope in a "good outcome" if she actually killed someone, and the gamble would have been pointless. I think however that she planned to let the bomb go off in case of failure. So therefore she still planned to kill everyone if worse came to worst (albeit not directly). Th problem here is that something had to have gone wrong to make the pieces of the puzzle fit. The first element we have is the head's ring which is said to be in Eva's possession in EP4 and confirmed to be authentic. While it's not impossible that someone pried that ring from Yasu's cold hands, I believe it's very unlikely. Yasu probably never carried that ring with herself and I don't think she would tell where it is so easily. So the easiest explanation is that someone, if not Eva herself, solved the epitaph, causing Yasu to relinquish her head's status as per her plan. The second important element is the fact that both Battler and Eva survived the explosion. As long as it was Eva alone I could still think she happened to be there by chance, but Battler too makes it too much of a coincidence. So the only explanation is that they knew the bomb was about to explode and they escape to safety. This has important implications, because Eva wouldn't escape without George and Hideyoshi, and Battler wouldn't escape so easily without his cousins and his parents. Yeah... unless he's the culprit! But I don't really buy that. Anyway all these facts strongly suggest that people already died before the explosion, which in my opinion isn't something that was supposed to happen according to Yasu's plan. I also thought about the possibility that Eva and Battler were fooled so much by the fake murder scenario that they thought everyone died while they didn't. But I don't think it's very likely because the fact they knew about the bomb and the fact Eva has the ring shows that Yasu's identity and plan was already exposed. So they'd know about the fake murder plan too. So some kind of murder happened, probably after the discovery of the gold, probably because of the discovery of the gold. Needless to say it, but Kyrie is a prime suspect here. I just hope the scenario Ryuukishi imagined isn't as retarded as what was shown in EP7 tea party. The last element we need to consider is Eva's decision to not disclose any information about what happened on those two days. If the culprit was someone she didn't care about or she even hated, she probably wouldn't have any reason to hide it. Another explanation would be that she decided to protect Ange from a harsh truth (which was more than hinted), however that points directly to Rudolf, Kyrie and Battler. Her behaviour could be also explained if George and Hideyoshi were involved. To a minor degree in case it was one of her other close relatives, you know, to protect the family name. It could even work if it was Yasu. Because Eva at that point would probably know enough to realize that Yasu is family as well. Not only that... she'd have to explain all that Kinzo did, and she probably wouldn't want to do that. Telling to the world that her father was a psycho who prepared a kiloton bomb in the basement and was ready to blow it up any moment is also something that she wouldn't want to tell. So there are several explanations for her silence in the end. But if we put everything together the Rudolf family murder theory is indeed the most probable. I guess the "goats" aren't so irrational in the end.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-11-20 at 09:48. |
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2011-11-20, 10:16 | Link #25750 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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- loving Yasu to the point you'll forgive her for committing a mass murder (which, I fear, is asking too much to the readers) - beliving her situation was so dramatic that killing everyone was the only plan that would make sense to her (and we already discussed how that's not the case as she wasn't in a dangerous situation or mistreated so horribly that killing those people was her only way out, etc, etc...) - not killing anyone but merely planning a game in which people would fake their murder and then see this game going hijacked as someone else started killing people So if the motive we're given in EP 7 is the one that pushed her to commit murders in fiction or reality or both it draws no sympathy. Quote:
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If the bomb works like in EP 7 she should have set it after midnight of the first day but all the games seem to imply the game started prior to it. I think the bomb was set when the real murders started by someone who thought he would escape from the island, either the culprit or someone who wanted to get rid of the culprit. If that person wasn't the culprit she might have thought he would have the time to save the others or that the others were already dead so there was no one to save. Quote:
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A thing I pontered about though was that Battler reached the 'exit' by mistake, or so he said. He actually planned to reach Kuwadorian so it's possible he planned to meet Eva (or someone else) there. However, since he didn't return back and searched for the right path to Kuwadorian either he was escaping and realized there was no more time or someone hit him in the head, caused him to go unconscious and put him on the vehicle that lead him away from Rokkenjima (which would explain how he hadn't started screaming while being on it). If he planned to go on Kuwadorian we've to wonder if he was merely escaping there or he knew that Eva was there (or believed that someone else was waiting him there). If he wanted to join Eva... why didn't they escape together? If he wanted to join someone else... who that person was? If he was escaping... either he was the culprit or managed to escape/kill the culprit. If instead he didn't know about the bom, wanted to go on Kuwadorian and ended in the tunnel by mistake... who hit him on the head? And if he was escaping... how did he manage to travel on that vehicle while the sea wasn't calm when we all know he tended to panic and scream like a banshee? Quote:
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Kirye is the worst (note that she's not related to Eva), Rudolf is bad but got dragged into it by Kirye and he wanted at least to save Battler and Rosa is just a jerk who cares only for her own gain. George's death is highly dramatic while Jessica's pretty fast and the servants are only mentioned in passing. No one notices there's no sign of Shannon or Kanon and we're not told what happened to Battler. It's possible if the same scenario were to be told from... let's say Kirye's perspective, we would have a less horrible portrait of Kirye and a less good portrait of Eva. Quote:
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2011-11-20, 10:48 | Link #25751 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway consider that I take in account the letters she sent with the bank account information, as I refuse to believe Ryuukishi went on a great length to explain that if it hadn't any relation to the real world. Quote:
Anyway in the end he really DID fall...
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2011-11-20, 11:13 | Link #25752 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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During the 5th the weather was still bad. |
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2011-11-20, 11:23 | Link #25754 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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And yes it becomes murder, but that my whole point. Do not forget however that if what was told was true, Kinzo set the bomb on "on" several times before. If that simple action alone made her a mass murderer then Kinzo has been a mass murderer several times long before her. There is still the chance that she might have found the urge to turn the trigger off before it was too late despite what she was planning. Quote:
Why do you think Battler had to have left the island before that? Eva didn't either. The explosion didn't engulf the whole island, the Kuwadorian and the submarine base were safe. also EP8 confirms that the explosion happened exactly at midnight. There might be an error of a few seconds but not minutes. Quote:
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-11-20 at 11:39. Reason: 6 hours not 8 |
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2011-11-20, 11:43 | Link #25755 | ||
Senior Member
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We basically have different characters who have different classes and different strengths. Then we have some overarching roles that can basically be applied to any character at whim based on the authors knowledge of the actuall truth. Those roles are The Detective, The Accomplice, The Culprit, Beatrice and basically also the two "species" of the game "The Wolves" and "The Sheep". Those roles are placed on the different characters at the start of each game session, but it does not have to be the actuall truth, rather it's a test wether it would make sense if certain characters had accquired those roles and what the consequences are if certain characters had those roles. The fact that the culprit in case for Kanon-culprit for example is killing without reason reveals that it cannot be a sufficient answer. Quote:
The problem we encounter is that it would either make Beatrice accompanying Battler completely fictional or we'd have to assume that she (or Yasu for that matter) did not die before or in the explosion. For me though, Battlers confusion about wether he was accompanied or not at that time stemmed from submerged guilt about the fact that he let Yasu kill herself to hide the crime. Let's assume the murders or at least some of the events actually continued until the late hours of the 5th. Battler, Yasu or Eva is finally able to stop the culprit(s). Now they encounter a problem. On the morning of the 6th Kawabata will arrive to pick them up and will definitely want to see the island if only 2 people are at the shore. They have only little time left to set off the bomb so that it destroys the evidence on October 5th and prevents anybody from knowing. So Yasu, Battler and Eva (in case Battler is the culprit he may be excluded, but I'd doubt that) form a pact which will make Eva the legal guardian of Ange and provide her with the legal rights to Rokkenjima but makes her give up the money that was sent to the relatives. Battler was supposed to accompany her, but something went wrong which Eva blamed herself for (that would explain why Eva "killed " Battler in the end of EP3 if we consider part of that scenario to be her feelings of guilt). Yasu decided to stay on the island and set off the bomb with not enough time to escape the radius, because she was never actually "alive" anyway and wouldn't be missed...instead it would have created more of an impact had she suddenly turned up. So BATTLER jumping in the ocean in the scene during EP8 could also show what happened to him. That basically Battler tried to commit suicide, knowing that somebody actually killed herself to absolve his family of their sins. |
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2011-11-20, 11:59 | Link #25756 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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There is a reason to do the murders.
Make an interesting "puzzle" to solve. *shrugs* I know most of you don't like that way of thinking at all, but I'm fairly certain this was Ryuukishi's intent. No matter what "reason", what "why dunnit" a writer gives to their "culprit" character, ultimately even these reasons exists only to suits the writer's own reasons. I think Umineko was his attempt to make us see beyond "Takano" and into "Ryuukishi's own intents", to use a Higurashi comparison. |
2011-11-20, 11:59 | Link #25757 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But the problem I have with the "meta-movent" interpretation is that, in my opinion, ignores what is a requirement of the game. In cluedo you can only win if you tell who is the culprit, the weapon and the room where the crime occurred. In Umineko you need to tell who is the culprit, how he performed the murder and why. For the game to be fair, all of these must have a human explanation, and metalogic is not a human explanation. That's why I don't believe it is possible to explain the movent of fictional Yasu that way. Quote:
I can hardly explain elseway how he could be so euphoric after that tragedy. Not to mention he was talking to an imaginary Beatrice.
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2011-11-20, 12:05 | Link #25758 | |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Surely you can device a sort of reason as to why Erika on the gameboard would've killed everyone in arc 6, but it doesn't change that the "point of origin" is metalogic. |
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2011-11-20, 12:15 | Link #25759 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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It doesn't matter, that could be said of any mystery novel. The culprit of novel X killed victim Y because if he didn't then there wouldn't be an interesting story for the author to narrate.
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2011-11-20, 12:20 | Link #25760 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Well that'd be fair if in Umineko the "message bottle and forgeries" authors wouldn't be characters in the story themselves.
But they are. The reader/writer relationship is true of any given story that has readers (even tho some writers are seemingly entirely unaware of it...). Usually however it's not the emphasis of most stories. If you say that it's not an emphasis of Umineko I guess we got 100% different feelings while reading the story so I can't really add to that. |
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