2011-11-23, 03:12 | Link #25881 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Hey, further to the point I was making about Maria and Yasu, the people who separate into different personalities and my theory that they were immature because of it. Guess who introduces the subject? Judoh got it...
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2...orgepoint3.jpg !!! I'm getting the feeling George knew all of this already! |
2011-11-23, 04:13 | Link #25882 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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The other thing is that there are numerous situations where people who where in on the murder "game" would have realized that there were real murders going on, but then they don't mention anything about the original game to anyone else. And at that point there's absolutely no reason to hide the game any more. For example, if Genji was only participating in a game, but had realized that Yasu really killed Nanjo and Kumasawa, then why didn't he warn Battler and Rosa? ...never mind allowing Yasu to run off alone with Gohda and George. Quote:
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2011-11-23, 05:16 | Link #25883 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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- Shannon somehow convinces George and Gohda to go to Natsuhi's room and kills them there. - Then she goes to meet Nanjo and Kumasawa in the courtyard and kills both of them. - Then she goes all the way to the gold chamber and sets the bomb. (Since the bomb must be set after noon on the 5th, this is the only time she's available in EP2 to do it.) - Then she goes all the way back to Natsuhi's room, locks it, and kills herself. That's an awful lot of running all over the mansion and shooting people without Genji noticing, especially since he was allegedly on patrol in the hallways.
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2011-11-23, 07:38 | Link #25885 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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What I think happen in EP1 and 2 was that a game of sorts was planned and the adults initially went along with it. Yasu then capitalized on it and murders them for real. I guess you can claim that its easier to just murder them, but then you'll have to drag their corpses to wherever you want them and properly set them up and the area. Its easier to just have them be there and help out, take a break and have a servant give them some refreshments watch them fall face first and then start ripping their guts out. Its still pretty silly in some parts. For people like Eva and Hideyoshi to be wholly innocent, they'd have to believe that those 5 where still alive. As mentioned before thats pretty low on the list of probabilities unless they never actually checked the corpses in detail. GENSAWAJO would be doing it to try to spare themselves, which although is something human to do under the circumstances is still pretty scummy when they could have easily overpowered Yasu. Rosa would need to have noticed it and rebelled instantly against any plan they might have had, which means that she would have shot Yasu in her face the moment she noticed they where really dead or when she found Jessica stabbed. So it comes back to some form of collusion with Yasu. Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-11-23 at 07:52. |
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2011-11-23, 07:59 | Link #25886 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Also, regarding Yasu's accomplices. Gensawajo seem wholly committed to this girl, and are essentially at her beck and call all the time. We can assume from EP3 that Kumasawa is probably the least culpable of them, but she's still, at best, complicit in it. There's no wiggling around Genji and Nanjo pretty much going along with what they HAD to know were real murders. At best, EP3 seems to say Kumasawa didn't really -like- this plan, Nanjo has been consistently portrayed as having his loyalty for sale, and Genji is a freakin' robot, so whatevs. XD |
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2011-11-23, 08:02 | Link #25887 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Does it have to be Yasu? From my reading of the stories, it could be anybody who took advantages of the situation and started to murder people for real. Besides, I'm not actually following Yasu logic if she really used the game to murder people. Setting up a detective games in hope for Battler to remember her is fine, trying to find a way to deal with her multiple personality or whatever it is is fine, but from that to murder is such a big jump that I cannot understand her logic. |
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2011-11-23, 08:09 | Link #25888 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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1) Yasu sets the trigger on "on" when everyone is asleep somewhere between 0:01 and 5:00 of October 5th 2) Yasu kills Kumasawa and Nanjo at the very time they disappear (or shortly after) in secret place "x" 3) Yasu brings Gohda and George to Natsuhi's room where she kills them. 4) Then Yasu makes a phone call to Genji (who is her accomplice, albeit he won't kill people himself) telling him to prepare Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpses and so on. 5) Before Genji finishes the preparations Yasu kills herself creating the final closed room. 6) profit (sort of...) Quote:
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-11-23 at 08:26. |
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2011-11-23, 08:09 | Link #25889 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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I agree with the sentiment that'd been expressed at multiple points that her motive kinda lies in the Meta, instead of making any real world sense. |
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2011-11-23, 08:18 | Link #25890 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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2011-11-23, 08:56 | Link #25891 | ||||
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I like the idea of the military base -massacre alluding to October 4th-5th 1986.
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AuraTwilight said that Tohya wrote the stories and Ikuko edited. I remember reading that Tohya gave ideas and Ikuko wrote. Which is it? I haven't actually read the second half of EP8, but you can see I have spoiled myself a bit. Can't really help it if I frequent this thread. Quote:
The gun falling through the gaps in the well in EP4 and the EP2 dresser solution sounded very wrong when I thought that a Winchester was flying around. Someone said that the only clue to that solution was that there was a dresser in the room, but there's also the fact that Rosa stopped Battler from investigating further around it (hints as Rosa's involvement as well). I came to suspect from what people have been saying that 'no-one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room' is actually a line from And Then There Were None. Is that it? In that case I can accept that the solution has relatively enough hints. Though I couldn't remember the line and relate to it when I read Will's solutions. Might have something to do with my book being in Finnish. It's missing right now for some reason, so I couldn't confirm this or if it was a revolver the culprit used. It's very possible. Quote:
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What I got as Yasu's motive is the creation of the catbox leading to the Golden Land. But that might be the motive constructed for the fictional Yasu. A case of love-madness, as you say. The real person might be different, to justify why Battler would forgive her. Unless Ryuukishi thinks that Battler can justify mass-murder when it is done out of 'love', some kind of act of mercy towards the Ushiromiya, who are stuck in pitiful situations and could be happy in the Golden Land. In that case it could be the Rokkenjima-Prime solution. About Kinzotrice, I think it's not only a joke. Who made the theory might have intended it as a joke anyway. But we can look at the Kinzo we see during the question arcs as Yasu, who is also preparing the roulette and leaving everything to fate. Maybe everyone acknowledged the existence of Kinzo means they accepted the present Yasu as the new head. I'd interpret it as someone being designated Kinzo or everyone agreeing to lie about the death of Kinzo, playing into the story of him moving around, killing people and giving tests. I'd say it's the latter, but I can say the former just to give something to Kinzotrice. Last edited by Bluemail; 2011-11-23 at 09:09. |
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2011-11-23, 08:58 | Link #25892 | ||||
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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At this point Rokkenjima Prime is like that italian sub's mission. Lost, beyond recoverable. From my POV you are mixing up what should morally be done (should it actually have happened) with what the game is about. It's pretty simple too. If Ryuukishi really intended as the goal of his game for us to solve Rokkenjima Prime, he did a ridiculously awful job at it. You wanting to "solve Rokkenjima Prime", and your disliking of Ryuukishi, IMO, are two sides of a single coin. That's really well made, you should probably leave it in your signature or something and add to it? Quote:
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I also sorta think actually that most people could imagine killing "someone" due to love, for various reasons depending on the specific situation. What makes Umineko weird is rather that love leads to murdering Gohda, Maria, Kumasawa and such characters. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-11-23 at 09:36. |
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2011-11-23, 10:00 | Link #25893 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Just because we know very little of it doesn't mean we can write it out, its a major theme in the story even if its writer started playing down its importance and never gives us an answer to it. |
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2011-11-23, 10:24 | Link #25894 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I don't know if you get what I mean, but if it was as you say Ryuukishi would whine that people are misunderstanding his story or jumping to conlcusions. He knows that people have difficulties at accept something, and we know that that something that people have difficulties to accept is that a person would kill for love and not that a person would write a story about killing someone. And he says that it is sad that people cannot accept that and that if they loved they would.
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2011-11-23, 10:27 | Link #25895 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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You can't just give up on it. What kind of Justice would that be?
It's probable that we'll never fully comprehend all mysteries and truths of science. There are areas of biology and geology that have been apparently settled for ages, then somebody discovers something new because they kept looking. Should they give up? And that aside, it may not be as impossible as it sounds to actually know the truth of Rokkenjima, depending on what Eva wrote down and what Touya actually remembers (and Ikuko, if she has memory of it herself). There may be far more detailed primary-source information than anyone ever expected, it's just we haven't seen it. So saying we should just give up on it becomes even more silly. If you existed in R-Prime, you'd have the ability to see and read about things we've never been able to see. So at the very least we'd know a lot more than we do. The only reason we "can't" is because Ryukishi doesn't want to show us, and he's releasing a booklet where he's going to give us even more info so presumably we eventually "can" learn more. It may not lead to a perfect final conclusion, but hey, gotta keep trying.
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2011-11-23, 10:45 | Link #25896 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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At this point I wouldn't be surprised if someone will refuse to trust what he will write in that booklet. Or anyway argument that the truth lies in unlikely interpretations of his words.
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2011-11-23, 10:53 | Link #25897 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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What Im going at is, Is your problem with motive with the real Yasu in prime or fictional Yasu in the stories? From your previous posts it feels like the issue is with fictional Yasu. As mentioned before, she could have whatever reason to actually murder them. Ultimately it doesn't matter, she never intended to satisfy you with their conclusion. Its a personal thing she did to vent her frustration. Chances are she did it because of the love triangle thing. If its the whole "Blame me! I did it! Nobody else did!" thing with Beatrice then yeah I still wouldn't trust it. If its actually something well constructed with information from Prime that actually makes sense, even if it includes Yasu as culprit then I'd be ok with it. He'd have to move heaven and hell for it to be satisfying though. |
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2011-11-23, 10:58 | Link #25898 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2011-11-23, 11:12 | Link #25899 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Now what Ryuukishi said in that interview is quite evident. You can still work it out by claiming he was talking about fictional Yasu, but I don't think it's reasonable to deny that he wants the readers to accept that "love and madness" is a valid explanation for mass murder... in general. That's a good point, but the story was very particular in saying that it will only explode at "midnight". Maybe the device is made it so it can recognize whether it is midnight or noon, regardless of what the grandfather clock itself is capable to display.
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2011-11-23, 11:43 | Link #25900 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Well...that exaggerated view is something Ryukishi is fond of, in Higurashi we have Spoiler for Higurashi culprit:
However...in Higurashi it kinda work somehow. I don't know, maybe it's just my personal view. Maybe because the villain is still...villainous, however sympathetic she is. And she's depicted as somewhat, uhm, crazy, so for some reason I could follow her logic. It's not really sympathetic, it's just I feel it understandable that such a person may have such a decision in such a situation. But for some reason, it did not work that way with Yasu. |
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