Macross Delta - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Some form of wierd superiority thing?

I don't think so, Gramia was sad in that old picture, so something sad should have happened back then. A superiority complex wouldn't explain the sadness.

Saying that, it's possible that Gramia's reasons behind starting the war and the reasons he used to push his people to revolt seven years ago aren't the same.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Your "problem" is you look on whole thing from position of your average citizen.

Of course I do, that's what I am.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

You, too (and @Triple_R this is also my response to you.), are missing the basic point, which is:

What if they had no other recourse for action, because of the system that UN Spacy had set up in the region?

I don't see how that point applies yet. It might later. And if so, I'll adjust my take on the Windermere people then. I'm almost always willing to change my perspective on characters or specific groups of characters while I'm watching through a show. Granted, positions can firm or harden after awhile, but usually not this early on.

I'm just saying that based on what we've seen so far, I think viewers being kinda disgusted with Windermere's actions is reasonable and understandable. And that terms like "terrorism" or "war crime" can be used to describe Windermere's actions, at least with some degree of validity (maybe not perfect validity). I haven't had time to read every post in this thread, but I feel like magnuskn's points have received more backlash than what's warranted, at least based on posts made in the first 5 or 6 pages of this thread.


Windermere's actions so far seem to be rooted in hubris, as was mentioned in an earlier post. To put it in a nutshell, they seem to think that they're the one people to rule them all. That honestly makes me think of something that's probably worse than terrorism, frankly, but maybe we're not supposed to take it that seriously. Maybe it's just basic paper-thin motivation that nonetheless gets the writing job done - Like a supervillian who's primary motivation is "I want to take over the world!"

Is Windermere doing this because their people are dying, and more resources are necessary for survival? Or something similar to that? Maybe, but if so, none of their Episode 5 dialogue gives me any indication of that. And Windermere did in fact receive decent focus in this episode, I felt.


Anyway, it's not that I hate the Windermere people. I don't particularly care about them either way, honestly. It's just that I completely get where magnuskn is coming from, and so I felt like supporting magnuskn some. Windermere is doing really bad shit, and their stated motivations so far is roughly on-par with a supervillian who wants to take over the world because he genuinely believes that would be to the world's benefit. Not exactly the picture of sympathetic antagonists, in my opinion. If Macross Delta's writing staff wants viewers to sympathize with Windermere, then they're not doing a very good job of it so far. So maybe that isn't the aim? Maybe we are supposed to view Windermere as dangerously extreme here, and in need of course correction? Maybe this is all leading to Freyja reaching out to her people in some fashion, in order to bring greater balance to them?

Just some thoughts that might be worth considering, in my view.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Of course I do, that's what I am.

I see you have changed avatar...

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Tak

I see you have changed avatar...

Oh. God.

RUN!

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I Maybe this is all leading to Freyja reaching out to her people in some fashion, in order to bring greater balance to them?

She's already reaching out to Bogue, considering how... excited he got after seeing a picture of her.

Images

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[DragoonKain3]

I think people are mistaken in what the Wind Kingdom is doing. Hubris? Galaxy domination? The one people to rule them all? This is the transcription of the sub of eps 5...

Children of the Protoculture! We, the Windermere Kingdom, hereby declare war on the New Unified Government!

Forty years ago, the New Unified Government reached out to us Windermereans. However, under their cooperative guise hid true evil. They crafted a profoundly unequal treaty and sought to monopolize all profits. Having struggled for so many decades, we rose up against this foe seven years ago and successfully took back our mother sky.

Nevertheless, as long as they exist in this Brisingr Globular Cluster, we may never find true peace! Rise and spread your wings to freedom!

Looks to me they are just bringing some FREEDOM to those who they think needs it.

Seriously speaking, this is just Roid though, who seems to be the ONLY Windermere not out there who wants everyone dead. Sure he thinks they are the 'true heirs to Protoculture', but I can excuse that being that he's from Windermere, a planet that has been oppressed by earthlings for forty years. Note though that Windermere's are extremely shortlived, so this 40 year oppression is roughly equivalent to 100 human years!

He obviously thinks he is 'better' than the humans because he (and presumably his parents) was subject to their 'evil deeds' for so long, but unlike the others, he just wants the enemy to follow his 'better' path. From his viewpoint, if his planet has been wrongfully 'ruled' by the NUNs even before since he was born, then surely the surrounding cluster needs to be liberated as well? There is a saying that "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing", so I can't fault him for wanting to liberate the surrounding cluster.

That's why I love Roid as the antagonist, because compared to his more blood thirsty compatriots, he is trying to take the high road. Of course it's still early and he might really be truly EVIL, but so far I like what Roid has to show.

Remember, episode 1 the Drakens ONLY appeared after the Walkure made themselves known by suppressing the Var. Roid has only explicitly stated he wanted the data (and gave no such orders to 'terrorize' the citizens), which we can safely assume is about Walkure. This is how the Aerial Knights pretty much ECM'd the Walkure out of submission in episode 4, due to the data gathered in episode 1.

Heck one can argue that the Windermere didn't even cause THAT particular Vars outbreak, because the Walkure did NOT hear Heinz singing, unlike in episode 5. (A reminder also that eps 5 tells us that Windermere was only associated with a subset of the Var syndrome, not ALL of it.) The Aerial Knights were just there to neutralize the Walkure upon knowing that they were there, or at the very least collect the data about them.

Is he totally right in his actions though? No, not in the slightest. I personally think that experimenting on unsuspecting populations to perfect their mastery over mind control is a real low-blow (which I assume was on other worlds not shown in the series itself). But compared to say, Keith or even the King? Roid is an antagonist I can respect, and I'll take him over the Boddoles, Laplamizs, Leons and the Graces of the Macross world. In fact, Roid is on pace to be up there with Commander Britai, IMO one of the best well-balanced antagonists in the entire anime medium.

[Annorax]

So the rune can be erected by strong emotion and apperently is some form of "private" thing according to Freyja...

Speaking of Var, pretty sure the first episode had a short scene of what seem to be the ruin and the song was heard by a Zentraedi before he went nuts.
Every maniac have justification.
You excuse the part of "legitimate heri of protoculture" and guiding the cluster's people, why? No really I am not see how he and his people being supressed(according to himself) can be excused for his interesting ideas
Heck we havent even seen how the colonists were supressing anyone in that region.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Speaking of Var, pretty sure the first episode had a short scene of what seem to be the ruin and the song was heard by a Zentraedi before he went nuts.

Maybe the weird singing is just the cause of them going VAR mode in general, not necessarily from Heinz? I mean, I don't understand how the Walkure can hear Heinz in eps 5 where we are 100% sure that they induced it, while they couldn't hear it in eps 1 if he DID induce it.

Every maniac have justification.

Some of them more understandable than others, yes.

You excuse the part of "legitimate heri of protoculture" and guiding the cluster's people, why? No really I am not see how he and his people being supressed(according to himself) can be excused for his interesting ideas

I dunno man, having played lots of RPGs, a lot of the time you play the part of a revolutionary against an empire that's been taking advantage of your country for years. Now you liberated your country against the empire, but what of the surrounding countries that the empire still holds?

Yeah, that's just my perspective on things.

Heck we havent even seen how the colonists were supressing anyone in that region.

To be honest, I'm more inclined to think that somehow Windermere got the short end of the stick of the NUNS 'uplifting'. Their civilization looks practically IDENTICAL to when the first Macross fleet arrived to their world (see beginning of epsiode 5). Compare this to other, like Zondor, Al-shahal, and Ragna, worlds where technology is present every step of the way.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Heck one can argue that the Windermere didn't even cause THAT particular Vars outbreak, because the Walkure did NOT hear Heinz singing, unlike in episode 5.

Mikumo says "a song?" in episode 0.89 right before the VAR outbreak happens (I don't remember if the scene is in episode 1). They just didn't know who was responsible back then.

Originally Posted by Annorax

Heck we havent even seen how the colonists were supressing anyone in that region.

Mercats and Walkures exports filling all the markets of course!

[Tak]

Originally Posted by azarhal

Mercats and Walkures exports filling all the markets of course!

So much that an entire planet of apple farmers with next to no visible industry to speak of on their picturesque world decided to rebel against a faction that dominated 1/3 of the galaxy.

Hot damn, some export that must have been!

- Tak

[Annorax]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

I dunno man, having played lots of RPGs, a lot of the time you play the part of a revolutionary against an empire that's been taking advantage of your country for years. Now you liberated your country against the empire, but what of the surrounding countries that the empire still holds?

Yeah, that's just my perspective on things.

Extending influence to secure yoru world is one thing, but having ideas of "legitimate heri of protoculture" and guiding the cluster's people is another...

Lloyd didnt mention this when his was holding the big reveal speech about kicking NUN out etc etc, he said that in private when he was talking to a knight, even if he doesnt believe it himself other Windamere did.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Heck one can argue that the Windermere didn't even cause THAT particular Vars outbreak, because the Walkure did NOT hear Heinz singing, unlike in episode 5. (A reminder also that eps 5 tells us that Windermere was only associated with a subset of the Var syndrome, not ALL of it.) The Aerial Knights were just there to neutralize the Walkure upon knowing that they were there, or at the very least collect the data about them.

Wrong Mikumo. Freyja and Hayate heard it in Episode 1.

Chaos can't correlate Var incidents without Biological Fold Waves to Windermere's actions.

There may be a biological component they haven't figured out yet. Like say the apples Windermere is exporting.

On another note as those on /m/ has stated there is possible reference to Macross Zero if Chuck gets to talk with a Aerial Knight. Windermere are the Bird Human while Ragnans are Fish Human. In response to Windermere's being in the sky Chuck could ask if they knew how deep the ocean is.

In any case the Kadun of Conflict a curse that is a wind of ruin coming from across the sea which bring about the Bird Human destroying the world could be the Var syndrome and what Heinz is doing with the relics.

[Tenzen12]

^^^I would buy one instantly.

[Annorax]

Speaking of farmers, I heard manga confirmed that their planet is pretty big on export apples and onyl that.
Can anyone confirm?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Speaking of farmers, I heard manga confirmed that their planet is pretty big on export apples and onyl that.
Can anyone confirm?

And glasses?

- Tak

[Annorax]

Well, either that or he is just into some weird shit
But glasses is hardly the strangest...
Pretty sure some people would have less-than-noble interest in erectable rune of Windamere
As I said it is from the internet...

[Annorax]

Originally Posted by Tak

So much that an entire planet of apple farmers with next to no visible industry to speak of on their picturesque world decided to rebel against a faction that dominated 1/3 of the galaxy.

Hot damn, some export that must have been!

- Tak

Maybe it will be a plot point. While normal colonists were upplifting locals properly some a-holes on that Megaroad did something else to the rune-people. Otherwise I dont really see how crafting "profoundly unequal treaty and sought to monopolize all profits" can have benefits, I mean a bunch of middle age farmer and production capability of such aint gonna bring profits compair to modern industry anyway. A facorty can produce more than half the Windamere
Land? What is land without any useful things on it? There is really no sign of development of land and building a modern colony.
Ruling Windamere? Doesnt have much benefit from the effort...
Resources? Yes but not fighting so hard over it that dimension weapon is somehow involved, NUNS have plenty on all the other planets and asteroid belts.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Maybe it will be a plot point. While normal colonists were upplifting locals properly some a-holes on that Megaroad did something else to the rune-people. Otherwise I dont really see how crafting "profoundly unequal treaty and sought to monopolize all profits" can have benefits, I mean a bunch of middle age farmer and production capability of such aint gonna bring profits compair to modern industry anyway. Land? What is land without any useful things on it? Ruling Windamere? Doesnt have much benefit from the effort...

It may be Windermere wanted to be treated special by the NUN but don't have the economy or resources to be so. They just another race they met.

Windermereans believed they are special due to having relics on their planet.
It is a slap to the face a weaker and longer lived species is uniting the Children of the Protoculture when they believed that was their destiny. Unlike Humans the Protoculture didn't nerf their Space Time Resonance ability.

Also while Earth allows colonies, member worlds like Zola and fleets to develop on their own including technology Earth won't give its most advanced military technology outside of the immediate colonies around Earth. As they have far too much experience with their technology used against them by rebel Zentradi and Lost Zentradi groups like the 63254109th Zentradi Outer Space Army who were upgraded by rebel Anti-Earth Zentradi. Earth was nearly invaded by the medium fleet of 63254109th Zentradi Outer Space Army and a recovered main fleet fortress which was buried on the abandoned colony world of Elysium, which was located at the edge of the galaxy.

[DragoonKain3]

Yeah my bad on eps 1, but still, it's not as if I condone experimenting on the unsuspecting masses. In any case, if Wind Kingdom REALLY wanted to terrorize Al-Shahal, they would have kept attacking. Yet Roid still pulls back? Looks to me that they wanted to experiment on Al-Shahal, Walkure shows up to block their attempt, they send Aerial Knights to collect data on the Walkure, then bail out.

Originally Posted by Annorax

Extending influence to secure yoru world is one thing, but having ideas of "legitimate heri of protoculture" and guiding the cluster's people is another...

Again, you can't think of the other race as the 'legitimate heir' if all they've been doing is oppress you. Of course you're going to think that its your race that is the legitimate heir.

And if the other race has been doing all things wrong, there are two ways to go about it. You either annihilate them (Kieth and King's opinion) or you try and change their ways and 'guide them to the proper path' (Roid's way). I personally prefer the latter method for the antagonist... gives them another dimension than good ol' Saturday Morning Cartoon villain "I JUST WANNA KILL THEM ALL".