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Originally Posted by Perishthethought
regarding the point about third person perspective - there are plenty of occasions where the girls are aware that Motoko is otherwise engaged. Sekai re: Kotonoha, Setsuna re: Sekai etc.
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Sekai knew it, and tried to act accordingly. However, Makoto was too persistent, and she succumbed as well, since he was blatantly choosing her.
Setsuna knew it only way later, and her behaviour should have been effective to make Makoto clear with his stance (which worked only lately, but when Setsuna used the huge means)
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Isn't Otome aware as well? While he may placate them in the short term, surely the prudent course of action for the girls would be to wait until they know for sure Motoko is detached?
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i won't debate about Otome, since it is self explanatory already.
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Both Sekai and Motoko have plenty of opportunities to reveal their infidelity to Kotonoha, for example, but simply do not.
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That is mainly Makoto's fault for this, as he is a plain coward.
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When it does become clear to Kotonoha (the scene outside Motoko's flat), it's far too late, the damage has been done. My judgement in these situations is not with the benefit of hindsight etc - I simply think it is wrong of them and very poorly thought through for them to acquiesce to Motoko even if they don't have access to a full and accurate picture. It's the fact that they give it up so easily despite this.
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Characters don't have the same possibility to realize the extent of the problems, as they don't have the clear image of what the other (mainly makoto) thinks and does.
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About Setsuna, I have real difficulty accepting that anybody would allow themselves to be used a physical bargaining chip for their friend's wellbeing. This isn't like swapping a school lunch. Desperate? Yes, most definitely. Would it possibly have some sort of benefit for Setsuna in the long run? Well, that's doubtful. Encouraging Motoko to sleep with her is at best a band-aid solution, and that's even if we discount the fact that she IS getting something out of it, too.
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This isn't like swapping a school lunch, but if it is the only way, i don't see the "problem" for a character build like this to act like that. If some people can sacrifice their well being or even their life, i don't see how it is unrealist to see a girl using her own body to do that.
Everything so far failed with that idiot, even the emotional promise they did, and her trust was kinda shattered. The only think makoto wants is "this", and he even assaulted Setsuna, just because he knew her weakness.
Therefore, it isn't a weakness anymore, and she was able to demonstrate her determination, as she is able to do anything for Sekai. She didn't imply they have to do it, but she hinted that if she must do "this" for the promise, she will. The difference is subtle, but present, as if it is something else, she will do it as well. It isn't an encouragement.
Finally, i can't understand how she can get "something out of it", while it is absolutely not romantic etc. heck, even if she was lustful, it wouldn't be great under these conditions.
Thus, the "excuse" or "gain something in the process" isn't exactly what i would agree with her desperate attempt.
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Even if they don't sleep together (and for what it's worth, having rewatched that scene, I don't think they do), the mere suggestion of the act - by Setsuna (even though it was Motoko who manhandles her to the bed) is tantamount to a betrayal.
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That isn't a betrayal, as she won't even go through stealing his heart. He wants a specific thing, and so, if she can force him in exchange of it, it will be a benefit for sekai. Makoto almost forced her to go in such extreme manner to make him realize of what Setsuna REALLY wants.
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She's leaving anyway, so how could she ever know that Motoko would make good on his promise?
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That's why it has a huge impact. She doesn't know if he will keeps his promise, thus her action is even more desperate. It adds much weight on her determination.
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Furthermore, having had her eyes opened to Motoko's true behaviour (i.e. he just wants sex), wouldn't a good friend warn Sekai to stay away? Essentially, it's something she doesn't have to think about as she's done 'her bit' for Sekai and got herself a piece of Motoko in the bargain, a nice memory.
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Setsuna wants Sekai happy. If it is makoto, so be it. That's why, instead of making her going through the break-up galore, if she is able to "tame" Makoto for her, she will do it.
Again, i can't believe we can say she "gain" her bit, as it is completely tasteless considering the condition (even before the bargain).
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I stand by my accusation that the girls are very, very misguided - even if we make allowances for what they 'know' about Motoko and the situation. Sekai shouldn't have got involved with him oweing to the fact that she knew he was pursuing Kotonoha, despite diverting his attention to her, and never broke it off. For me, that makes her an idiot. An idiot in love? Yeah.
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I don't question about some of her stupid actions, but it is far from your very first claim. At the very least, Sekai never had the intention to make him change his heart, and the consequences were completely not expected, as she didn't know Makoto was that influenced by his hormones (thus, the horrible turn of the training)
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Setsuna should have steered well clear, even if her attempt is to get Motoko to be faithful - meddling and offering herself as a physical sacrifice is never going to help. To me, that makes her an idiot.
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already covered setsuna "issue" above.
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Kotonoha is in a dream world, ignorant to reality and on the verge of a breakdown - she needs perspective and a good psychiatrist (although you can hardly blame her for that, which is why I mentioned I felt sorry for her in my original post, as she's taken the lion's share of the punishment in this anime).
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The problem isn't she is in a dream world, the issue is she cannot give up, as it is something deep in her mind.
She has a sense of reality considering her behaviour and several thoughts. Unfortunately, her clinging behaviour is more like a non sensical attempt to keep what she found for her life. She doesn't exactly need a psychiatrist, as she is lacking of experience. Of course, she snapped, but that doesn't mean she is past the broken point. Again, madness is kinda peculiar in her case.
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Otome isn't ignorant of Motoko's conquests, either. Their liasons are under the blanket of secrecy. She doesn't even know if Motoko will ever come clean. To carry on in such a way, to me, makes her an idiot.
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Otome explained clearly why she is fine like this. it doesn't have anything with idiocy, but that's what she wants.
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Hikari's pursuit of a perverted moron like Taisuke, who has demonstrated his perversion to her on many an occasion (like the pool party), makes her an idiot - I'm fully aware of the fact that she doesn't know he's capable of rape. Even without the rape in the picture he's a class 1 moron.
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Perversion doesn't mean someone helpless. Again, we don't know how she fall for him (It would be the same for setsuna if we didn't have that flashback). You can't force anyone to love or to NOT love because the objective is not a "good" choice for you. It is subjective, that is.
I don't believe i have to comment about the rest, as Makoto is really a peculiar case, and is nowhere to "redemption" to me, as he is only for "this".
Again, i'm just curious how Setsuna's trigger was powerful, which might turn the tide.
But i'm not really expecting forgiveness, or i think i will be vulgar with the scripters. (which became hard to not be, considering the messed up added "extravagant events" in the plot)
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) and who disagrees needs to burn *dont take that last point seriously*
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