ViVid Strike! Anime General Discussion Thread

[Nachtwandler]

I will simply say "haters gonna hate" because mods will not allow any discussions here anyway.

[Diluc]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

I will simply say "haters gonna hate" because mods will not allow any discussions here anyway.

Rather hate more like a rant. But i wouldn't entertain that further.

[TYxTxYT]

Originally Posted by Roxis

The problem in striker...

I give you on other points, however,
If you look back to S1, Chrono X Amy is pretty hinted.

[Gx Hero]

Personally I liked Strikers. I am not a fan of politics or the illegal research but he made it work. I respect Tsuzuki for trying to write a good story.

Vivid strike has a good story but how it is animated and how the scenes themselves are done leaves something to be desired. AN example from nanoha season 1, Fate didn't just take the jewel seed and leave but rather flattened nanoha leaving a strong impression on us the viewers. Also the conversations between Nanoha suzuka and arisa. With Fuuka everyone but nove and einhart feel like side items, fuuka really never talks with them, also how fuuka learned about and reacted to what happened to rinne was flat.

Hope I made sense and didn't rant too much.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Gx Hero

Personally I liked Strikers. I am not a fan of politics or the illegal research but he made it work. I respect Tsuzuki for trying to write a good story.

Vivid strike has a good story but how it is animated and how the scenes themselves are done leaves something to be desired. An example from nanoha season 1, Fate didn't just take the jewel seed and leave but rather flattened nanoha leaving a strong impression on us the viewers. Also the conversations between Nanoha suzuka and arisa. With Fuuka everyone but nove and einhart feel like side items, fuuka really never talks with them, also how fuuka learned about and reacted to what happened to rinne was flat.

Hope I made sense and didn't rant too much.

I think Vivid Strike has been doing fine in terms of leaving enough impact on the points that matter. The Rinne flashback had plenty of extremely powerful points. And it explores the problems that Rinne has a lot more than the original series did for Fate. It never deeply explored the physical and emotional abuse that Fate endured. And can't say I cared in how the show basically just had Fate forgive all of that and still reach out to Presea.

There are always pros and cons for how a show goes about things. It spent a lot of time here in terms of Rinne's backstory, developing Fuka's skills and giving enough attention to other characters. While comparatively Nanoha didn't focus to the same degree on Fate's situation or Nanoha developing her skills. The positive gained from that was a bit more time for Nanoha herself and her personal relationships. Suzuka and Arisa didn't remotely have the same amount of time spent on them as Vivio got in the latest episodes or Miura going into her fight. And between the two of them Arisa had more than Suzuka who basically had little presence or fleshing out. That time has to come from somewhere. Heck Chrono got basically no character moments in the original series. There was a cost there. A single cour is what it is, only so much screentime to pass around.

Comes down to what matters more to individuals. And I don't think Fuka's reaction was remotely flat. She simply handled it maturely. It is in line with her character when given time to process information to handle it calmly. And she's absolutely right. She can't do anything about what happened in the past and trying to take responsibility for it would be pointless. Focusing on what she can do in the present is rational and intelligent.

[Gx Hero]

I guess that is true. I rewatched all the episodes and wondered what I was thinking when I wrote that.

[novalysis]

The issue with Vivid and Vivid Strike has very rarely been about characterization - the gaps in Einhart's backstory notwithstanding. It's the disappointment revolving around world-building.

That being said, Vivid and Vivid Strike is the kind of series that lives and dies on making their characters sympathetic , likable and well developed, in part due to its' disappointing world-building. But this means that it's hard for Vivid to elevate itself above another good Slice of Life series with strong characterization.

[4th Dimension]

As someone who is relatively new to both the anime in general and the fandom I have to say I liked the StrikerS. It had loads of problems, but I liked that they were trying this new thing a military sci-fi using magic as cover for flashy fights. And that thing was something that I enjoyed, magic allows us to hand wave a lot of physics breaking stuff (although seeing Vice's helicopter made my head hurt every time) and at the same time it clearly has scientific rules (it's not based on bat's eyes and blood pacts and demons and other "edgy stuff") and the setting is sci-fiish which gives great opportunities to include whatever the writers want. And it had flashy aerial dogfights with loads of dodging and weaving where the fight was not decided purely on who screams stronger and whose beam will win in a beam on beam combat.

I also have the dissenting opinion that I enjoyed the first half until the annoying NUmbers show up a lot more than the later part. And that is where StrikerS failed for me. Sure the later fights were fun, but the opponents were not interesting simply because there was simply too bloody many of them and they had like 0 character development. Hell out of all of them (another I guess dissenting opinion) I kind of found most interesting Regius and at times Zest. The first one was a horrible politician but at the same time he was also human and a believable character that wanted to do good and was trying to the verry end but has also been clearly corrupted by cynicism of politics. Zest could be annoying with his persistance on stupid revenge but also had believable goals given his honor bound character.

As I said apart from above I am willing to give that StrikerS had loads of problems (character weak opponents, Nanoha and Fate stealing a lot of thunder from Subaru and Leana, them trying to cram too much lore and plot into too short a series to the point they had to offload the entire backstory of L&S and a lot of setup into manga, putting characters on a bus for no reason (Yuno and Arf) etc. etc. etc.) and was a mess, but for me it was a bit of an endearing mess. And I also understand people who wanted a more regular magical girl plot as in As set on Earth because that was what the franchise was about up till then and As was excellent. But considering the ending of As that pretty much showed them practically preparing to move to Midchilda I don't know if more adventures of school going crew on Earth could have been arranged. Or maybe that ending was later tacked on in later releases I don't know.

Still there are loads of other magical girl shows, and considering that the technical number for their number is shitton, there are probably quite a few that are also excellent. So the change here was not as much of a loss and it allowed us to see something I have yet to see anywhere else.
In fact I used to consider the changes in focus and plot between seasons a big plus of the series since it kept things fresh. But that fell into water once releases ran dry.

Greeeeeaaaatt. I made a long ass offtopic rant as my second post. Real cool 4th Dimension. If we have and there is a need I'm willing to move this to a StrikerS toppic?

Anyway back to the Vivid: Strike.

So far I have mixed feelings. And I should be able to distill those feelings into a single sentence description of the show. It's a "ViVid show done by the Force people/ideas". I say people/ideas since for the long time I thought Force and Vivid were being made by two different teams given the large differences in their tones, art style, story and characters. So it's a fighting tournament type of thing that because it's a fistfight competition eliminates most of the magic as if it's ashamed of it for some reason?!? while ramping up the elements of darkness and violence a la Force. And it's good that they did the second since otherwise it would have simply been a bland Vivid knockoff with uninteresting fights.

But the addition of dark Rinne's background for whom the adoption and new family failed catastrophically through no fault of hers or her adoptive parents is an interesting alternate take on Fate and Einheart. Maybe Einhart could have become Rinne, cold aloof and seemingly ruthless had she come under Jill's paws? Basically it's something new to watch in the familiar setting.

Or is it a familiar setting? Along with a much greater focus on physical injuries (seriously don't they use the Crash Emulator?) as I said they have nearly completely eliminated the visible magic from the setting, leaving the fighs to seemingly be pure competitions of strength and bloodletting. Oh sure there is lip service given to how they still use intelligent devices for protection but in practice these are pure bland fistfights, with the deliberate changes in rules and age limits to eliminate anyone with interesting fight style, which for some reason keep not using the Crash Emulator. Seriosly in Vivid there were like two instances of combaters getting seriously hurt where Sig did not participate and both were practically self inflicted and Sig is an abnormality. Yet here we have Rinne regularly hospitalizing her opponents.
Another thing about blandness is the fact that in past 8 episodes this was the first episode where Rinne did not stupidly dominate the fight and where the competitors had actually interesting and opposing styles. They were still a bit bland since again only fistfighting, but they were different and interesting to watch. This all is not helped by the fact that Fuka is not doing her own thing but is being trained in the same style as Einhearth. Which for some reason she will be able to master in a couple of months?

Add to that the fact that while Rinne's background is interesting and I understand how she got where she is now she is cold gray and kind of dull on screen. She doesn't need "befriending" via copious application of firepower, in fact as we will probably see defeating her will pull the supports from below her by removing her coping mechanism and if no one is there to catch her and talk to her she is going to get even more depressed and angry.
Basically the last thing she needed post her bullying trauma was to train for martial arts competitions. She needed some good therapy.

What I fear now is that the organizers are going to pull some sort of stupid rule from out of their ass that would allow Rinne to continue to fight. Which would be stupid, since Rinne was clearly eliminated.

[Jimmy C]

You know, once, the Nanoha franchise had the reputation of not wasting time reusing the transformation sequences. But, in Vivid Strike, there have been transformations in 6 of the 9 currently aired episodes, half of them have been repeats, multiple repeats, even.
It's a bad sign. It means, for at least three of those episodes, they had nothing else to show for over a minute.
Now, all they need is "stock" attack sequences and they'll be just like any other show out there.

[4th Dimension]

To ne fair before Vivid it was only 2/3 that were fanservice/ttansformation light. The original had the SAME extended transformation in EACH episode.
On the other hand fanservice was back since Vivid and while this is Force like in terms of plot and themes, it does use Vivid artstyle. To be fair to Strike, when compared to Vivid, it's considerably tamer, except for the fact that the bust sizes have grown to ridiculous degree and "jiggle" physics was added *groan*.

[RDNexus]

With all due honesty, I haven't been liking much how the story has been going this time.
Too much martial arts, Fuuka has almost been relegated to secondary role when she seemed to be the protagonist, way more focus on the ViVid Main Cast...
Well, that's the feeling I've been getting.
Unless they manage to remediate that with next episode's events, I'll end up feeling they're failing big time with this franchise.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by xrick

With all due honesty, I haven't been liking much how the story has been going this time.
Too much martial arts, Fuuka has almost been relegated to secondary role when she seemed to be the protagonist, way more focus on the ViVid Main Cast...
Well, that's the feeling I've been getting.
Unless they manage to remediate that with next episode's events, I'll end up feeling they're failing big time with this franchise.

Yeah. Kind of my opinion too. And the martial arts aren't nowhere near as visually and technically interesting as the actual fights in previous seasons were.
As you say probably the main problem is that apart from the antagonist the protagonist recieved like no development where we could be shown why she is the MC and what makes her unique and interesting.

The Vivid cast kind of feel tacked on. There for Rinne to beat them bloody to show how "good" she is and more importantly to draw in the Nanoha/Vivid crowd, coz otherwise i don't thing many people would watch the show. Also possibly the idea was to create something that could move far enough from Nanoha not to require her appearance ever again.

[RDNexus]

Such a shitty move...the franchise will end up depending on Nanoha Movie 3rd to manage to last on it's own legs...in my opinion

[4th Dimension]

Well, the franchise has been technically dead already as far as anime side is concerned ever since StrikerS. And with the break up with Nanoha's voice actress, that has pretty much put a nail into it's coffin I'm afraid. The only thing the movie will determine is if it ends on a totally sour note.

If they would like to continue they will need to find a setting and characters that are separate from TSAB and Nanoha far enough so their absence can be explained. A timeskip might do the same though.
This has sort of felt like that kind of attempt. And attempt to create a new group of characters to base stories around with two new leads who would remind us vaguely of Nanoha and Fate, and their relationship. But as far as I'm concerned it failed miserably.

[DKN117]

I forgot: how old are Fuuka and Rinne?

[Gx Hero]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

If they would like to continue they will need to find a setting and characters that are separate from TSAB and Nanoha far enough so their absence can be explained. A timeskip might do the same though.
This has sort of felt like that kind of attempt. And attempt to create a new group of characters to base stories around with two new leads who would remind us vaguely of Nanoha and Fate, and their relationship. But as far as I'm concerned it failed miserably.

I agree and yet I don't. Vivid strike is basically that new setting. THe characters though are a different story. Nove and einheart are fine in their roles even if they are from vivid. The problem is too many old characters return and are noise taking up time and the spotlight. Miura Rinaldi would have actualy have been fine as a charecter if not for vivio and the rest being there as well.

One of the things that made nanoha great was the fact that throughout each season we got a look into both protagonist and antagonist heads. THis also allowed previous characters to be put into the next seasons easily. This is one other major problem with vivid strike is while we get into the head of the antagonist RInne, we really don't get into fuuka's head.

On another note I wonder how the story would have gone if sieg had trained Fuuka, or if the story was Rinne's depression after losing to vivio and siege teaching her, or something like it.

[4th Dimension]

Vivid is a fine setting and I like it's characters and their interactions. Allthough some of them still don't have much to them like Rio. On the other hand Hayate was also a bit bland in the original group.

The problem with ViVid for me is twofold. One was one of presentation with ridiculous amounts of creepy fanservice. The other problems are based around plotting and the tournament plot was never as interesting as previous seasons. The stakes and the scope of action is really limited. I like my air duels damn it. Also the tournament mechanics make any match an all or nothing affair and rematches are kind of rare. Think back to the first season if Fate and Nanoha could only fight once. It kind of limits the amount of interaction. Also this mechanic forces only one match/pair into the limelight for extended periods of time limiting the appearance of others meanwhile.
Much bigger problem in using base ViVid, that is Vivio and Ein as protagonist is that interaction with Vivio's family and Nanoha in particular (since Fate's absence can be explained by her being on a mission) and Nanoha is essentially not available any longer.

Here they tried to move away by introducing new leads, but the format bit them on the ass. The format of 1v1 matches meant that for episodes at time the focus was only on the two characters that were fighting. Also you could not pit two main characters from the start because once one looses due to the tournament it's over. This has SERIOSLY hampered character interaction, and has in the end led to the probelm that since Fuka could not be involved in Rinne's matches, she could not contribute to the plot in the middle that dealt with Rinne. This has meant that Fuka is as you say completely underdeveloped.
They managed to create an interesting if for me unsympathetic antagnist character which is good, but utterly failed at creating an MC that we could get behind.

Compare that to a hypothetical scenario where normal combat was used. In that case it would be a team battle giving the opportunity practically to teh entire cast to show off theri stuff practically each episode. Also Fuka could be shown multiple times facing Rinne and getting better, and we could see how her character is progressing through all of that.

The mistake in other words was that they wanted to create an interesting and series tropes subverting antagonist with close ties with protagonist, but due to the constraints of the format they had to put walls between them for like 80% of the show since they were on opposing teams. With no opportunity for confrontation the plot collapses.

Thing what would have happened if they did this in Vivid with Einhart. If the only place where Vivio could have interacted with her was in the ring of DSAA. There is no way they would have been able to put all the needed character development and interaction into their ONE match.

They tried to make a hybrid of Nanoha original (Fate and Nanoha interaction) and Vivid's setting (tournament) but in the end the hybrid did not get the best characteristics of both.


If they had focused on introducing only ONE character. Even if it was from the point of antagonist, like you say somebody sympathetic teaching Rinne (not that trashfire Jill) ti would have been much better.

[Gx Hero]

you make a good point and sometimes I just don't think things through. Bottom line is there was much they could have done to improve the series. I like the idea of the team battle.

Fuuka could have been a likable charecter had they bothered to try.

As for future series, the setting of midchilda is a great setting for different type of stories I think.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by Gx Hero

As for future series, the setting of midchilda is a great setting for different type of stories I think.

That is true, and that is one of the pluses about the franchise. Each tried to do something different. But we have been stuck in this Tournament/martial arts thing that while I don't hate it (I hate the anime version of Vivid though mostly for the presentation issues outlined before), did not grab me as much as previous seasons did. It's like Vivid did well so they try to fit EVERYTHING into it no matter if it fits or not.

[TwoZeroTwo]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

That is true, and that is one of the pluses about the franchise. Each tried to do something different. But we have been stuck in this Tournament/martial arts thing that while I don't hate it (I hate the anime version of Vivid though mostly for the presentation issues outlined before), did not grab me as much as previous seasons did. It's like Vivid did well so they try to fit EVERYTHING into it no matter if it fits or not.

Yeah, that's why after the original short preview to Vivid Strike I was hoping that Fuuka fighting people on the streets was going to be a much bigger part of the show. Something down on that level, on the street level, figuratively and literally below the flashy, superpowered air mages and their battles would be interesting. And instead that part is literally like two minutes of setup at the very beginning of the show before Fukka then joins Vivio and friends and it's a tournament anime.

Isn't it Madoka Magica that has a bunch of spinoff manga following other groups of girls that all put their own spin on the plot of the original and maybe have a couple characters from the main series show up sometimes to tie it in? I always thought that was a cool idea and a good way to do it. Of course, an anime is so high-budget that ViVid Strike needed to bring a lot of recurrent characters in and connect this show tightly to the main Nanoha series, but there definitely could be a manga or two that does the 'same universe, different type of enviroment/plot' aspect.

I didn't post when you were all talking about StrikerS a page or so back but the best part about that season was how much they expanded the world and how much potential they provided for other plots and other events. There's infinite planets out there, magic can allow for basically anything to happen/exist if it's justified, and even Midchilda alone is big enough to have a lot of options. Give me more cool Nanoha stuff! Show us some more cool magic and whatevs. At least go back and finish Force so I know what the flip happens! But oh well, that's why we just do it ourselves BOIS, amiright amiright?