Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel Movie Discussion Thread

[GreyZone]

It would be interesting if they switched the perspective of the whole route to Rin, hearing her monologues instead of Shirou's, which would give useful background information and would possibly give a good reason for "original content by Nasu". The problem is that in that case the whole Shirou/Archer thing would possibly not work so well, so while I'd welcome it, I think it is rather unlikely. What I think is plausible though, is that the perspective jumps between Shirou and Rin multiple times instead of just prologue and rest.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It would be interesting if they switched the perspective of the whole route to Rin, hearing her monologues instead of Shirou's, which would give useful background information and would possibly give a good reason for "original content by Nasu". The problem is that in that case the whole Shirou/Archer thing would possibly not work so well, so while I'd welcome it, I think it is rather unlikely. What I think is plausible though, is that the perspective jumps between Shirou and Rin multiple times instead of just prologue and rest.

Yeah that'd completely miss the point of the route. The route is called UBW, for a reason because it's about Shirou and Archer's constant struggle. What you gain by switching perspectives no way outweighs what you lose. Rin acts as a proxy for the reader in many cases in that she points out what the reader is generally thinking about the contraditions and distortions in Shirou, but ultimately it should be mainly about what Shirou is thinking as that's what sets up the climax and main point of the story.

Even if you were to switch Rin gets sidelined in the end during Archer vs Shirou and then Shirou vs Gilgamesh. It's better to further developed but keep the focus mainly on Shirou.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Yeah that'd completely miss the point of the route. The route is called UBW, for a reason because it's about Shirou and Archer's constant struggle. What you gain by switching perspectives no way outweighs what you lose,

Not all scenes are essential for the Shirou/Archer story arc. In cases it's not this adaption has the potential to get over the short-comings of Rin in this route. I would not mind to hear Rin's thoughts while she attacks Shirou at school. One can always say that it's most likely her "pride and responsibility as a Magus" what drives her, but hearing her actual thoughts is still something else.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Not all scenes are essential for the Shirou/Archer story arc. In cases it's not this adaption has the potential to get over the short-comings of Rin in this route. I would not mind to hear Rin's thoughts while she attacks Shirou at school. One can always say that it's most likely her "pride and responsibility as a Magus" what drives her, but hearing her actual thoughts is still something else.

The thing is those things are largely inferred in her actions. That's kind of the major point why she's a tsundere, you can largely read what she's thinking like an open book and you'll often see shirou's monologue comment on this. It's not as if UBW doesn't focus on what she thinks about it actually does more so than most heroines. Her conversations with Archer are a major part of Archer's characterisation since Archer doesn't actually directly interact with Shirou all that much,

[mirakura]

Well, since it's Archer's route too, the normal prologue till Saber's summoning would probably fit. They could counter switch, kinda like in Zero, but people who watched UBW and Rin's monologues got what was happening, and people coming from Zero will get her character. I imagine it switches, after all, most of the scenes shown so far have both Rin and Shirou monologues. Like Rin in her bedroom and Shirou where Kerry died, watching the stars.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Well, since it's Archer's route too, the normal prologue till Saber's summoning would probably fit. They could counter switch, kinda like in Zero, but people who watched UBW and Rin's monologues got what was happening, and people coming from Zero will get her character. I imagine it switches, after all, most of the scenes shown so far have both Rin and Shirou monologues. Like Rin in her bedroom and Shirou where Kerry died, watching the stars.

I think that's the beginning of story if they're actually following the VN with the UBW chant being the first thing you see and then Shirou talks about the fire and Kerry. It would be the perfect start to episode 1 and links into F/Z the best.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Yeah, exactly. I think they looked less like sisters in the VN for sake of plot twist. But now, they don't need to look different. In fact, if they did look too different, it would be strange.

Nah, it's not obvious that they're sisters in the VN because Takeuchi only really has one basic character template, which he then sticks hair, breasts and eyes on....

Originally Posted by mirakura

Shouldn't it inter-switch from Rin to Shirou? Cos without his monologues, Shirou will come off as another idiot, lol. Even without the comments.

Well, I would not expect them to focus directly on any one character in the way that the VN does, they'll find another way to make Shirou look like less of an idiot.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

It would be interesting if they switched the perspective of the whole route to Rin, hearing her monologues instead of Shirou's, which would give useful background information and would possibly give a good reason for "original content by Nasu". The problem is that in that case the whole Shirou/Archer thing would possibly not work so well, so while I'd welcome it, I think it is rather unlikely. What I think is plausible though, is that the perspective jumps between Shirou and Rin multiple times instead of just prologue and rest.

It wouldn't work because it would require too many original scenes and would leave out a whole bunch of stuff from the VN that Rin does not see.

I would expect, however, for them to not focus directly on any one character, and instead to switch as appropriate. Which will likely include more scenes from Rin's viewpoint, showing things she did or thought that Shirou never sees.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Not all scenes are essential for the Shirou/Archer story arc. In cases it's not this adaption has the potential to get over the short-comings of Rin in this route. I would not mind to hear Rin's thoughts while she attacks Shirou at school. One can always say that it's most likely her "pride and responsibility as a Magus" what drives her, but hearing her actual thoughts is still something else.

I'm not sure why you assume we will be directly following anyone. Anime works differently from a VN. With the VN, we follow Shirou as if we are him, and see his thoughts from a first-person perspective. The anime, conversely, will be third-person and, whilst it may well focus more on Shirou and will likely show some of his thoughts, we're not going to be inside his head permanently in the way that we are in the VN, because that simply doesn't work for an anime.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

The thing is those things are largely inferred in her actions. That's kind of the major point why she's a tsundere, you can largely read what she's thinking like an open book and you'll often see shirou's monologue comment on this. It's not as if UBW doesn't focus on what she thinks about it actually does more so than most heroines. Her conversations with Archer are a major part of Archer's characterisation since Archer doesn't actually directly interact with Shirou all that much,

Honestly, that's really not true. There are plenty of things that we simply do not see about Rin as a person.

The reason Rin couldn't be the POV character for FSN is because she simply knows too much. Not only about the nature of the Grail War, but also her relationship with Sakura etc. Covering that up for two and a half routes would have been impossible.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Nah, it's not obvious that they're sisters in the VN because Takeuchi only really has one basic character template, which he then sticks hair, breasts and eyes on....



Well, I would not expect them to focus directly on any one character in the way that the VN does, they'll find another way to make Shirou look like less of an idiot.



It wouldn't work because it would require too many original scenes and would leave out a whole bunch of stuff from the VN that Rin does not see.

I would expect, however, for them to not focus directly on any one character, and instead to switch as appropriate. Which will likely include more scenes from Rin's viewpoint, showing things she did or thought that Shirou never sees.



I'm not sure why you assume we will be directly following anyone. Anime works differently from a VN. With the VN, we follow Shirou as if we are him, and see his thoughts from a first-person perspective. The anime, conversely, will be third-person and, whilst it may well focus more on Shirou and will likely show some of his thoughts, we're not going to be inside his head permanently in the way that we are in the VN, because that simply doesn't work for an anime.



Honestly, that's really not true. There are plenty of things that we simply do not see about Rin as a person.

The reason Rin couldn't be the POV character for FSN is because she simply knows too much. Not only about the nature of the Grail War, but also her relationship with Sakura etc. Covering that up for two and a half routes would have been impossible.

That's also simply not true because apart from Shirou she has by far the largest amounts of POV and by far the largest amount of screentime in general.

There's a reason why she's the second main character of the whole VN because apart from Shirou she's the one that gets the most development and exploration in all 3 routes.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

That's also simply not true because apart from Shirou she has by far the largest amounts of POV and by far the largest amount of screentime in general.

There's a reason why she's the second main character of the whole VN because apart from Shirou she's the one that gets the most development and exploration in all 3 routes.

I mean "POV character" in the sense of "the character we follow", i.e. the character whose POV we see the story through. Sure, Rin has more screentime than other characters, and is the only one to really get development in all three routes, but we don't often actually see things through her eyes (the Prologue aside). Sure, she gets a few interludes, but I don't recall many (the only one that immediately comes to mind is the end of HF).

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I mean "POV character" in the sense of "the character we follow", i.e. the character whose POV we see the story through. Sure, Rin has more screentime than other characters, and is the only one to really get development in all three routes, but we don't often actually see things through her eyes (the Prologue aside). Sure, she gets a few interludes, but I don't recall many (the only one that immediately comes to mind is the end of HF).

Again you use prologue aside, and then interludes aside we actually see a lot from her point of view, the prologue itself is pretty damn long.

The reason we don't see more than the huge amount we already see is because we don't need to see it, all the major points of her character can be inferred from the hundreds of times we do see her. Comparatively we barely see and understand Saber and Sakura at all. So as far developing more on Rin is on the absolute lowest priority. There's dozen's of characters that are in need of development well before more development of her even enters the picture.

Now if you were to take UBW on it's own as a standalone product then yes she does need more development because a large proportion of her development does take place in other routes, e.g why she's in love with Shirou initially and why she stalks Sakura. But that's not the same as requiring large sections of the story being told from her point of view. She's a very important part but she's not core of that story. The core of that story is Shirou's struggle with Archer which is why she gets side-lined a bit in that route in the first place. That's why you interact with her so much rather than actually be her (she was actually original supposed to be a second MC you could pick and then follow and then join with Shirou in the later half but they decided against that, which why prologue exists at it's current length.)

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Again you use prologue aside, and then interludes aside we actually see a lot from her point of view, the prologue itself is pretty damn long.

Well, yes, the prologue is very long, but it also comes at the very beginning, so we are necessarily limited in what we see of her. We don't see a lot from the Grail War, for instance.

The reason we don't see more than the huge amount we already see is because we don't need to see it, all the major points of her character can be inferred from the hundreds of times we do see her. Comparatively we barely see and understand Saber and Sakura at all. So as far developing more on Rin is on the absolute lowest priority. There's dozen's of characters that are in need of development well before more development of her even enters the picture.

Yes, that's somewhat true but, also, seeing things from her viewpoint would often be a spoiler (outside of HF, anyway).

Now if you were to take UBW on it's own as a standalone product then yes she does need more development because a large proportion of her development does take place in other routes, e.g why she's in love with Shirou initially and why she stalks Sakura. But that's not the same as requiring large sections of the story being told from her point of view. She's a very important part but she's not core of that story. The core of that story is Shirou's struggle with Archer which is why she gets side-lined a bit in that route in the first place. That's why you interact with her so much rather than actually be her (she was actually original supposed to be a second MC you could pick and then follow and then join with Shirou in the later half but they decided against that, which why prologue exists at it's current length.)

I'm not saying that you need to tell the story from her viewpoint, though. At no point did I argue that....

[mirakura]

Well 'Shirou will be portrayed more as a MC' means most things that we see in third person will be near him. Rin is the route heroine, not the MC, so Shirou needs to have more screen time and monologues than her. That, or the prologue is Rin. It switches to Shirou, when they get to Lancer chasing him, till Saber's summoning. Seeing as the prologue was originally Rin, we will have known her character by the time it switches to Shirou POV.

[Nayrael]

The Prologue will DEFINITELY be the mix of Rin's and Shirou's POV. Not only would not mixing them be bad for a TV series, but in the trailers we had already seen scenes from both of them.

As far as POV's in general go, they already said that the TV series will have more POV's than just Shirou, and I doubt that they would mention it if they only meant the Interplays.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

The Prologue will DEFINITELY be the mix of Rin's and Shirou's POV. Not only would not mixing them be bad for a TV series, but in the trailers we had already seen scenes from both of them.

As far as POV's in general go, they already said that the TV series will have more POV's than just Shirou, and I doubt that they would mention it if they only meant the Interplays.

Well obviously they specifically mentioned the gil and Kotomine scene which wasn't in the VN the question was to what degree. There's any number of ways one could interpret that quote. Could mean a lot more Rin perspective it could mean more Fake assassin persepect or medea etc. We're arguing specifically over one interpretation.

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

The Prologue will DEFINITELY be the mix of Rin's and Shirou's POV. Not only would not mixing them be bad for a TV series, but in the trailers we had already seen scenes from both of them.

As far as POV's in general go, they already said that the TV series will have more POV's than just Shirou, and I doubt that they would mention it if they only meant the Interplays.

Exactly...

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

The Prologue will DEFINITELY be the mix of Rin's and Shirou's POV. Not only would not mixing them be bad for a TV series, but in the trailers we had already seen scenes from both of them.

As far as POV's in general go, they already said that the TV series will have more POV's than just Shirou, and I doubt that they would mention it if they only meant the Interplays.

Yeah, I think it is absurd to assume that they will follow Shirou to the extent that the VN did. There is simply no reason to do so in an anime. But, even so, they will cover the contents of the VN, and the VN follows Shirou. Therefore, the anime will spend most of the time following Shirou also.

[mirakura]

Exactly...

[Tenchi Hou Take]

It's less about following shirou but more and Shirou's thoughts (and Archer's thoughts), which takes up 50% of VN the issue was whether they'll bother to show that or not

[mirakura]

Not that they bother. They have to, it is UBW after all....

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Not that they bother. They have to, it is UBW after all....

No they don't, it's an artistic choice. If they want to adapt it properly they will but it's not a foregone conclusion (UW movie barely monologued at all). They could easily skip the majority of it as it's not common in visual medium like this to have a character monologue the entire time. It does happen but it's actually quite rare. Shirou monoluges a heck of a lot, it's not the occasional thought here and there or during battles he does it through everything.