[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Their meeting in EP4 was a whole 24 hours before the thing in EP2. It's not hard to imagine that Beatrice to be really Yasu in costume. She was far away from Battler and never used any magic. Plus Battler even refers back to the scene while he's investigating on Oct. 5th.

I mean the meeting at the end, when they had the battle with blue and red truth. Not the meeting he had with Beato when she was standing up on a balcony like in a twisted version of the Romeo and Julieth scene.

[Renall]

Basically the argument I am seeing here is essentially this:

"Well, it's possible Erika could have known about <x> (be it Kanon's location, who her piece saw in the parlor, etc.), however it was necessary that she specifically inquire about <x>, otherwise she was allowed to simply assume those things. What we see narrated is based on her assumptions."

That is just phenomenally, unfathomably, unimaginably stupid. And, since Shkanon is also unfathomably, unimaginably, phenomenally stupid, you guys just might be on to something here.

The problem of course being that it makes everybody's victory over Erika (whether Battler, Lambda, or even Bern really) a factor not of their ability to pull one over on somebody like her, but Erika's incredible ability to ask for every piece of relevant information that could possibly help her except the ones that would have immediately derailed everything, which she conveniently never once thinks to ask about.

Damn, man. I never thought I'd have to get up and defend Erika or anything, but if that were the case she's basically getting full-on boned in the rear by Ryukishi's decision to selectively and arbitrarily make her ignore things no person with her personality ought to ignore. Erika is, in D&D terms, the asshole player who never stops asking if this particular spell can be used in that particular unconventional way. We even witness her doing this with Battler. Going by this theory, Battler doesn't beat her with a clever "everyone else" usage in fake-defining Kanon into a room; rather, that's just one of many lines of inquiry regarding Kanon that Erika should be including in her incredibly anal line of questioning, but doesn't. For basically no reason.

She loses because she has to lose, even though her personality ought to have accounted for it. Not because she was outwitted. Not because she was outplayed. Not because of one mistake, but an entire series of intentional omissions that are more the writer's fault than her own as a character.

...Damn, man.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Renall

Basically the argument I am seeing here is essentially this:

"Well, it's possible Erika could have known about <x> (be it Kanon's location, who her piece saw in the parlor, etc.), however it was necessary that she specifically inquire about <x>, otherwise she was allowed to simply assume those things. What we see narrated is based on her assumptions."

That is just phenomenally, unfathomably, unimaginably stupid. And, since Shkanon is also unfathomably, unimaginably, phenomenally stupid, you guys just might be on to something here.

I fear that's the premise.

If this is a mystery roleplay with a subjective narration and the visual aid is just that and not something that's really taking place the only insurance Erika might have that her piece is seeing what's in the narration is constantly asking for confirmation.

It's kind of the same thing with red.

Since the word 'dead' was used with a subjective meaning we should have asked what Beato meant when she used it.

We get lot of definitions, what do you mean when you say closed room, what do you mean when you say knock but no one asks what do you mean when you say dead.

I guess that, as far as roleplays go, Erika isn't the good detective she paints herself to be, or better her piece has the potential to be a good detective but her player is incompetent.

Sort of like when in a roleplay you've a character that's amazingly strong and amazingly skilled with weapons but you always fail to use the properly so... hum... you've him to use his amzing swordskill against spirits and his amazing magic spells against someone who can't be hurt by magic.

Hey, your knight is cool but you're moving him all wrong!

Though MetaErika's failures are mostly due to her overconfidence.
She doesn't think it's useful to check the corpses... so she doesn't do it.
She doesn't think it's useful to check if Kanon is really in the other room... so she doesn't do it.

However part of this might be explained with Erika not really wanting to solve the games, merely to frame someone.

In Ep 5 she wanted to frame Natsuhi, in Ep 6 she wanted to trap Battler in a logic error so basically she was never interested in the truth, merely in proving what she wanted to be the truth.

This info might be useful for her theory? She'll investigate on it. It's not useful for her theory? She won't investigate on it.

Note however that in Ep 5 she's left free reign.
Lambda, who represent the magic side, doesn't fight down her assumptions.
She could have been the one saying that Kinzo was dead so he couldn't move the corpses. Or that Natsuhi wasn't the culprit.

Intead her theory, which was wrong, wasn't shot down by Lambda. The fantasy side, Beato, couldn't respond because they weren't in charge for the game and so they didn't know how the murders had been carried on.
Battler had to respond with another human culprit theory, which, by the way, was wrong.

It's possible that Erika knew that, differently from Battler in the previous games, she didn't need to provide THE TRUTH, but just a possible truth so she overlooked searching for it because she didn't need it (and Bern didn't seem to want it).

In fact in EP 6 she grasped the real truth in the first twilight but, instead than exposing it she deliberately twisted the game to create a reality that would please Bern.

We expect Erika, as the detective, play the role with the moral standards of... let's say Hercule Poirot, but actually she's just using her power to twist the game... and gets punished for it both in Ep 5 & 6.

In short, the key to understand Erika's mistakes is that she didn't plan to win exposing the truth, as we try to do, but exposing a plausible explanation that would please Bern. Since said plausible explanation isn't the truth and she likely knows, she loses by default in exposing THE TRUTH and, if she were to manage to win, it would be just because the refeer were to decide to let her win.

If Lambda had insisted for her exposing the real truth in EP 5 she would have lost with her theory about Natsuhi without the need for Battler to step up and accuse himself.

[RoW]

Originally Posted by Renall

She loses because she has to lose, even though her personality ought to have accounted for it. Not because she was outwitted. Not because she was outplayed. Not because of one mistake, but an entire series of intentional omissions that are more the writer's fault than her own as a character.

...Damn, man.

IMHO whole Umineko is a mix of Battler’s hallucinations during epileptic seizures and fighting against the restoration of his own memory and novels written by him and Ikuko.

I don’t agree what Erika’s loss is inevitable. I even don’t agree what she lost. Bernkastel and her “daughter” symbolize the brutal truth of Rokkenojima. They exposed the truth and Battler couldn’t suppress his memories. But they also didn’t win, because Battler and Eva keep silence about the accident, but Ange doesn’t trust the Eva’s diary and doesn’t want to find a truth. As result, despite the fact what Beatrice is dead, Bernkastel can’t kill the Legend of Golden Witch.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Renall

The problem of course being that it makes everybody's victory over Erika (whether Battler, Lambda, or even Bern really) a factor not of their ability to pull one over on somebody like her, but Erika's incredible ability to ask for every piece of relevant information that could possibly help her except the ones that would have immediately derailed everything, which she conveniently never once thinks to ask about.

Same thing happened with Battler vs. Beatrice. In any case, the more Reds that the player gets the easier it is to narrow down the answer. If a player has access to infinite Reds they should never be able to lose, whether they are Erika or anyone. So the fact that Erika didn't persist in asking questions is just something you have to hand-wave regardless of your take on the EP5 parlor debate.

Originally Posted by Renall

Going by this theory, Battler doesn't beat her with a clever "everyone else" usage in fake-defining Kanon into a room; rather, that's just one of many lines of inquiry regarding Kanon that Erika should be including in her incredibly anal line of questioning, but doesn't. For basically no reason.

Well, the narrative explained that her thinking with "everyone" was to cover for any possible person X that could be allowed for by name-play and if it covered for a given person X it should cover for Kanon just fine. I don't see it inconsistent with her "annoying-intelligent" personality to not pursue what she would consider a meaningless question.

The problem was that she had no notion of a "sleeper person" inside of another person that would not blip on the Red Text sonar. And heck, even if she had Kanon's location verified there could still be a "sleeper person X".

Originally Posted by jjblue1

If Lambda had insisted for her exposing the real truth in EP 5 she would have lost with her theory about Natsuhi without the need for Battler to step up and accuse himself.

Lambda might just have been treading carefully due to a fear of logic errors.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

detective authority would be pointless if it didn't affect its meta counterpart that's the real player.

How so?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Lambda might just have been treading carefully due to a fear of logic errors.

To me it's more that either Lambda has nothing to lose even if the fantasy side loses (the fantasy side loss means merely that Beatrice disappeared) or that she's still betting on Battler to solve things.

Basically Lambda provided no fight when Erika began her reasoning, discharging the task of defending the fantasy side on Beato.

Maybe she and Bern came to an agreement that said that if she were to let Erika win Lambda would suffer no punishment game or something like that (didn't Bern want to beat up Lambda or somethng like that in the beginning? Or is it my memory playing tricks? *sighs* I need to re-read Umineko...).

[RoW]

I'll try to explain what 5th and 6th parts mean for real world. Beatrice-slayer (witch who killed family members and servants on Rokkenojima) is dead. "Dead" means it's recognized by Battler (real Battler in Ikuko’s home). She never existed, and Battler already knows real criminals. His goal is to prevent exposing of the truth, to protect Ange and Illusion of the Golden Witch. That is why Bernkastel told what she is unsatisfied, despite Beatrice is dead. Her main goal is to expose truth to the world and annihilate Ange, because the truth of Rokkenojima will send Ange to the hell and this fact will become a great pleasure for the most brutal witch. And 7th and 8th parts became a battle for Ange’s soul.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Same thing happened with Battler vs. Beatrice. In any case, the more Reds that the player gets the easier it is to narrow down the answer. If a player has access to infinite Reds they should never be able to lose, whether they are Erika or anyone. So the fact that Erika didn't persist in asking questions is just something you have to hand-wave regardless of your take on the EP5 parlor debate.

Well, the narrative explained that her thinking with "everyone" was to cover for any possible person X that could be allowed for by name-play and if it covered for a given person X it should cover for Kanon just fine. I don't see it inconsistent with her "annoying-intelligent" personality to not pursue what she would consider a meaningless question.

The problem was that she had no notion of a "sleeper person" inside of another person that would not blip on the Red Text sonar. And heck, even if she had Kanon's location verified there could still be a "sleeper person X".

The only meaningful part of your point here is the comparison of Battler and Erika, because it's pretty apt actually according to this idea.

Basically, both Battler and Erika got fucked over by being lied to about the rules. So they weren't playing the game they were told they were playing. As Beatrice lied to Battler, so too did Lambda, Bern, and Battler lie to Erika.

Now I feel almost bad for her. Ryukishi managed to cheat his hero and his villain.

[Judoh]

What meta level is Erika on in episode 5? We do see her in a lot of scenes with Dlanor, but I've always had the impression she didn't get to Bernkastel's level of the meta world until the Witch trial scene with Natsuhi. Since she talked to Bern on the gameboard level a lot. So I thought she was kind of inbetween the gameboard and meta world levels until the end of the game. Is there a point in episode 5 before the witch trial where she talks to bern in the tea room or something like it?

maybe I should just reread the episode...

[unsuspectingvisitor]

random thought. An idea just come to my mind. Did the mass murder on Rokkenjima prime really happened ? I kinda doubt that everyone on the island were dead.

The evidence that the police got wasn't enough to confirm that they are dead though. Anyone could just planted that jaw after the explosion and the message bottle was obviously a lie to begin with. Maybe everyone agreed to take part on a what Maria called "Magic". It's basically to make everyone believe that they are dead even though they are not. Well the parents seems like the one that will benefit from it and it seems like this idea was said in all the four games. With Battler not believing in magic.

Also i think Battler doesn't want Ange to know the truth because he knows Ange will be piss off.

Random post. Ignore this if you want.

[UsagiTenpura]

Ahaha, I actually sorta like that.
Everyone are in debts up their necks so they take the 10 tons of gold and vanish from the face of the earth after faking their deaths. But oops, they forgot Ange.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

random thought. An idea just come to my mind. Did the mass murder on Rokkenjima prime really happened ? I kinda doubt that everyone on the island were dead.
...
Random post. Ignore this if you want.

It's a devil's proof!

and we have this theory in comic form! enjoy!

Spoiler for very large image:

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Ahaha, I actually sorta like that.
Everyone are in debts up their necks so they take the 10 tons of gold and vanish from the face of the earth after faking their deaths. But oops, they forgot Ange.

poor Ange. Well she was sick so no dice.

Originally Posted by Judoh

It's a devil's proof!

and we have this theory in comic form! enjoy!

Spoiler for very large image:

Ahaha Cute. Fat Hideoshi is fat.

Anyway, This theory was hinted in episode 1 to 4 right? "Everybody go to the golden land thing".
And it's kinda similar to Higurashi in a way that everyone was still alive. This must be the truth i think.

[RoW]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

poor Ange. Well she was sick so no dice.


Ahaha Cute. Fat Hideoshi is fat.

Anyway, This theory was hinted in episode 1 to 4 right? "Everybody go to the golden land thing".
And it's kinda similar to Higurashi in a way that everyone was still alive. This must be the truth i think.

It’s something like devil's proof ignoring the red truth and actions of characters. Why did they disappear leaving wounded Battler, Eva and Marias’s jaw? In same way I can tell what doctor Nanjo or Kumasawa massacred everybody.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

It's a devil's proof!

and we have this theory in comic form! enjoy!

Spoiler for very large image:

Well that's really amazing. Never thought I'd agree with Bernkastel so much.

Edit: Am I the only one who thinks the "ocean" part of Battler/Beato in arc 8 seems to be actually figurative? There are just too many similarities between it and Bern/LD's "sea of fragments". The first thing LD did in arc 5 when bringing Battler there was asking him who he is, and talked about becoming scraps of seaweeds and forgetting yourself (which sorta happens in a literal way to Battler). There Bernkastel tells Battler "these aren't memories, but they might appear that way to you" and we have a Toyah who says he's unable to consider Battler's memories his own. It almost sounds like Toyah is to Battler what LD/Bern are to Takano/Rika.
Also anyway even if you do want to take it as a literal event in Rokkenjima Prime, there's too many things that are obviously figurative. I mean there's a literal catbox in it.
Anyway the parts with Toyah and Hachijou are a bit hard to take as fully real, seeing as Hachijou is ageless in it.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Well that's really amazing. Never thought I'd agree with Bernkastel so much.

Edit: Am I the only one who thinks the "ocean" part of Battler/Beato in arc 8 seems to be actually figurative? There are just too many similarities between it and Bern/LD's "sea of fragments". The first thing LD did in arc 5 when bringing Battler there was asking him who he is, and talked about becoming scraps of seaweeds and forgetting yourself (which sorta happens in a literal way to Battler). There Bernkastel tells Battler "these aren't memories, but they might appear that way to you" and we have a Toyah who says he's unable to consider Battler's memories his own. It almost sounds like Toyah is to Battler what LD/Bern are to Takano/Rika.
Also anyway even if you do want to take it as a literal event in Rokkenjima Prime, there's too many things that are obviously figurative. I mean there's a literal catbox in it.

That's an interesting take on it.

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Anyway the parts with Toyah and Hachijou are a bit hard to take as fully real, seeing as Hachijou is ageless in it.

Apparently ageless. I wish I knew when the EP8 Ura took place. I've always found it strange how Yukari seems to think of herself as old, because Touya doesn't look all that old to me and Yukari is 12 years younger than him. Never mind how young Ikuko appears to us, and how Yukari "senses" something ageless about her.

But it's quite likely that it's mostly just RK07 being too lazy to draw new character art sets.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

Apparently ageless. I wish I knew when the EP8 Ura took place. I've always found it strange how Yukari seems to think of herself as old, because Touya doesn't look all that old to me and Yukari is 12 years younger than him. Never mind how young Ikuko appears to us, and how Yukari "senses" something ageless about her.

Based on the recent interview, I think it's at least 20 years after her disappearance, and possibly much longer. Ryuukishi said he isn't as old as Yukari was in that scene, and he's 38 this year.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Well, a lot of the women in Rokkenjima were pushing or exceeded 40 rather easily right? They all looked pretty young to me all things considered. Maybe its in the blood

Also Lyrical, when will you release more of that interview? We need things to hold us down till Confessions comes out.

VVV
Nice!

[LyricalAura]

After I finish my grant proposal that's due in 10 hours.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Based on the recent interview, I think it's at least 20 years after her disappearance, and possibly much longer. Ryuukishi said he isn't as old as Yukari was in that scene, and he's 38 this year.

Which would make Touya at least 50, and Ikuko is almost certainly older than Touya.