[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

Also is his official name actually Black Battler because that would be a little awkward. I keep imagining Blaxploitation Umineko or something.

Black Battler is the only name we've got for him, but within the TIPS and any other narrative-based thing, he's just called Battler Ushiromiya.

Except he's a dick.

If I recall, "Black Battler" as a name came from a bunch of fandom stuff, like MilkyTea's doujin comics and such. I'm sure you can call him anything and people'll get it, like "Dark Battler" or "Evil Battler."

@Main Project: I CANNOT WAIT FOR THAT TO BE DONE.

[Renall]

I'll stick with "Evil Battler" then.

Wait... but which one is the evil Battler!?

[AuraTwilight]

The one that's literally getting a thrill off of killing people, obviously.

AKA the black one.



What? What'd I say?

[cronnoponno]

''Not understanding anything seems to be the job that I was hired for, madam''.


.......BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOLOLOLOL


Anyway, I read ep 8 and like...

Well, I'm good on the magic ending, it ended nicely and I picked that first and all.


But come on, I was seriously disappointed with the trick ending....what the hell did that really say? ''Lol magic is not real and because I'm a little smart I'm like totally gonna shoot them carelessly, I also have a RAGING FUCKING BONER FOR DEDUCTIVE REASONING, END''

I see that he was trying to make that case about the truth being known and all, but I was just utterly confused at what that proved....?

Maybe I'm just not like, reading it properly. Does it end differently depending on what item she gets?

[AuraTwilight]

The Trick Ending is basically a troll ending. If I had to give what the "moral" of it was, it was "Magic is a metaphor for something, and if you dispense with that metaphor and what it means, you're giving up happiness itself."

At the end of the day, what is 'magic' as Beatrice and company defined it, but the feelings of hope and love?

And no, the ending only determines what she throws away in that scene. Interestingly, that includes stuff like the Beatrice doll, implying that either A) magic is literally real and Ange's not realizing it, or B) this entire kakera of Ange becoming a psycho asshole bitch isn't real.

The Trick Ending is basically the "You didn't get what Ryukishi was trying to say" Ending.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Renall

Anyway the actual current project is still doing pretty well.

That first screenshot there puts me in mind of a fragment where Battler comes to Rokkenjima with his girlfriend Erika in tow, causing bizarre mystery catfights with Shannon while Battler and George aren't looking.

[UsagiTenpura]

Okay, this will come out pretty randomly cause I'm not entirely sure all to make out of it, but in the middle of a conversation it flashed to me how Umineko could be making a whole lot of references to Jungian psychology.

Namely, that symbols of alchemy are used for symbols of phases of growing up/evolving while Beatrice is the family alchemist, and the Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice logic takes on an interesting meaning when considering they could represent the Anima/Animus/Shadow archetypes within Yasu. I'll think about all of that in more details and post more about it, I sorta feel stupid for never considering that before actually right now.

[battle22]

omg just finished it.. i went with magic ending. lol. is the trick ending sad?

[Aspirety]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Okay, this will come out pretty randomly cause I'm not entirely sure all to make out of it, but in the middle of a conversation it flashed to me how Umineko could be making a whole lot of references to Jungian psychology.

Namely, that symbols of alchemy are used for symbols of phases of growing up/evolving while Beatrice is the family alchemist, and the Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice logic takes on an interesting meaning when considering they could represent the Anima/Animus/Shadow archetypes within Yasu. I'll think about all of that in more details and post more about it, I sorta feel stupid for never considering that before actually right now.

Oh WOW! Thinking of Shkanontrice as Anima/Animus/Shadow fits a little too well... Coincidence or intentional?

Originally Posted by battle22

omg just finished it.. i went with magic ending. lol. is the trick ending sad?

Depends on your interpretation. None of them are really 'bad ends', more like they satisfy different tastes.

Personally though, I felt a lot more satisfied after watching both endings.

[Thunder Book]

I finished Episode 8 hours ago. Not quite sure what I was supposed to be getting out of it to be honest. Seems contradictory to the stuff Ryu was saying before in the other Episodes.

Someone earlier mentioned the idea of Battler being the true culprit. For some reason really appeals to me, even though it probably isn't true. I certainly feel more comfortable with thinking of BATTLER's bizarre view on why the truth needs to be hidden as a way of "protecting Battler-Prime" and his crime being found out in the futue than just "lol the truth doesn't matter."

Telling Ange to not want the truth just seems so...villainous the more and more I think about it. What BATTLER is doing here reminds me of that North Wind and the Sun thing from Episode 3.

I haven't had much sleep, and I'm rambling at this point and probably sound stupid, but basically I can swallow this ending more easily if I think BATTLER was trolling Ange up until the very end. It makes Tohya wanting to kill himself make sense if he thinks his repressed personality is a murderer, too.

But oh well, this is just silly speculation from me. This theory goes against the ideas expressed in a lot of the story too. But then again, so does the ending we got.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The Trick Ending is basically the "You didn't get what Ryukishi was trying to say" Ending.

Or also: "If you chose the trick answer, I suppose you are the kind of person that will enjoy this kind of ending, so I'll reward you with it."

And what horrifies me the most is that apparently there are in fact people that liked that ending.

[Pika_power]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

And what horrifies me the most is that apparently there are in fact people that liked that ending.

Hi there. Nice to meet you, too.

Trick was, to me, the ending in which Ange realises that shutting out reality and holding out for her family to return was unhealthy and ridiculously childish, not to mention the thing that ultimately led to the 1986 tragedy in the first place. Acknowledging the truth, accepting it and moving on is far better than trying to bury one's head in the sand.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Or also: "If you chose the trick answer, I suppose you are the kind of person that will enjoy this kind of ending, so I'll reward you with it."

And what horrifies me the most is that apparently there are in fact people that liked that ending.

Not even liked it, but I knew a couple people who actually got the Trick ending and thought that just was the actual ending. They thought it was surprising, but I don't know if I'd say they enjoyed it.

I didn't even realize there were people who didn't save and choose all options. I suppose if you'd only ever read Umineko you would do that, but on the other hand, the entire eight VN series only had a whopping one substantial choice, you'd think that means there's something interesting to see both ways.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

That first screenshot there puts me in mind of a fragment where Battler comes to Rokkenjima with his girlfriend Erika in tow, causing bizarre mystery catfights with Shannon while Battler and George aren't looking.

You can't see my hand right now but I'm waggling it in a "You're kinda on track but kinda not" gesture. It's not actually some great big shocking twist, I'm just intentionally posting only misleading screenshots because I'm a dick.

Also I'm not actually waggling my hand.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Pika_power

Hi there. Nice to meet you, too.

Trick was, to me, the ending in which Ange realises that shutting out reality and holding out for her family to return was unhealthy and ridiculously childish, not to mention the thing that ultimately led to the 1986 tragedy in the first place. Acknowledging the truth, accepting it and moving on is far better than trying to bury one's head in the sand.

Bolded part is relevant here.

When I judge a story I judge it for what it is, and for what the author wanted to convey with it, not for what I see or wanted to see in it.

I've nothing to say against what you have written there, if that was the trick ending I would have liked it too.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by AspieSincerity

Oh WOW! Thinking of Shkanontrice as Anima/Animus/Shadow fits a little too well... Coincidence or intentional?

The more I think about it, the more sense it overall makes... so I really think it can't be a coincidence. Finally Sayo Yasuda/Beatrice is starting to make some sense.

The problem is that this is ... complex to talk about in a theories and spoilers forums as I'd have to explain much about Jungian psychology, then about how Ryuukishi used it (he clearly has his own take) and then make theories about it concerning Umineko, so I end up not really wanting to deal with the complexities of that.

Still to name a few things I think it's likely by now that... (and going to overly simplify things but...)
Kanon represents Yasu's reason as well as an embodiment of how she interact with women. The male side of her psyche.
Shannon represents Yasu's feelings as well as an embodiment of how she interacts with men. The female side of her psyche.
Beatrice represents everything Yasu denies or cannot see about herself, which are things that comes to the surface even tho she denies them and ultimately what really controls her choices. Yasu still loves Battler, but denied it, seems to be one of the main point of the whole thing.

Battler by fully accepting everything about Yasu would push her to also accept a lot of things about her own self, which ultimately would result in "Beatrice's death".

Anyway I'd get more into this, but I have the feeling most people here won't give that theory/logic a chance at all. Don't really want to write all of that in that situation.

[AuraTwilight]

Taking that a step farther, can't all of Yasu's imaginary friends be archetypes? Virgilia and Ronove are almost perfect embodiments of the Mother and Father archetypes, for instance.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Anyway I'd get more into this, but I have the feeling most people here won't give that theory/logic a chance at all. Don't really want to write all of that in that situation.

Personally, I think you've just uncovered something big and am absolutely riveted by the idea. By all means, continue.

[UsagiTenpura]

Yes I've thought of exactly that Aura, didn't want to get into it but I guess you see it.
Thanks a lot actually ^^

Sins aren't "typical" archetypes either, but they seem to be in Yasu's case.
The whole logic of having an ancient image from your youth sorta "burned" into your psyche to represent these archetypes seems to be extremely dominant of Umineko.

The relation between Maria and Sakutarou among things makes a lot of sense under that light as well.

Now the really "messed" up side that I'm not entirely sure about, but seems to make some sense, is that the "Meta-World" appears to be the "psyche" of Battler himself.

Or perhaps that's even true of the gameboard... but now I'm starting to lose it a bit. Still thinking of Battler as Yasu's "hero" archetype (which fits considering the Kinzo/Battler lookalike logic seems to be rooted in that too) who "died" (Kinzo died) and thus resulting in the different sides of Yasu's psyche not working together anymore seems to be sound... but very much incomplete...

Another thing I suggest anyone that's interested in this to look for is the symbols of Albedo, Rubedo and Nigredo of alchemy as used by Carl Jung, they make too much sense to me ^^;;
Ah, thanks Wanderer, Aura, actually I have to leave in like 5 mins so I'll have to get more in depth about this later tonight it seems...


I just want to add this cause it feels like it's been screaming it at us: "Shadows are the domain of witches and demons".

[Renall]

I'm always wary of trying to read Jung into anything, because either it wasn't intentional and is interesting only as a neat coincidence, or it was intentional and the author is being kind of pretentious.

That's not to say the archetypes don't map or anything. I just don't think it was that well thought-out.

[AuraTwilight]

I'll have to agree with Renall if only because I'm not very confident in Ryukishi's subtlety. He tends to make his symbolism very much visible in the plaintext.

That being said, Shkanon as Anima/Animus/Shadow is probably a valid interpretation. And hey, fuck it, Metafiction is pretty much "Death of the Author" embodied, you know?

Another thing I suggest anyone that's interested in this to look for is the symbols of Albedo, Rubedo and Nigredo of alchemy as used by Carl Jung, they make too much sense to me ^^;;

Yea, I've no idea what the heck to do here. The best I can come up with is matching them to Virgilia, Beatrice, and Clair, but any relevance you can draw is totally overshadowed and made redundant by the much more elaborate and much more clear Dante's Divine Comedy thing.