2012-01-17, 18:18 | Link #27101 | ||
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If that's not the case: I provide you evidence that a piece might not know what the player know. You say that's not enough evidence however the whole of Umineko will not provide you enough evidence for nearly everything. In some cases we have 'commonly accepted theories' that have a high probably to be true, and that in some cases is so high we take them as truth and don't bother to discuss anymore if it's true or not. In some other cases we don't get such luxury. In short we're close to Erika's problem in EP 6. She could check very accurately the 'corpses' but the only way to prove for sure they were death was to kill them. Since we can't kill them and we can't even prove if our 'autopsy' is accurate or we missed some vitals details there's no way any of us can prove how things work for sure, though we can be sure we've guessed right... or that someone else guessed wrong. If you're absolutely sure in EP 5 there's a error or a dirty trick nothing can be said that will cause you to waver in your convintion with the present material we've at hands. Quote:
Also I find Umineko lacks of an important detail for making this believable. No one mentioned Shannon and Kanon have an awfully similar face despite not even being related to each other... unless Yasu is really serious about this and when she dresses up as Kanon also wear a mask or some accessories that significantly alter her face... (and no one noticed because Yasu is in truth a professional make up artist) Where? I can't find it. all her theories were smashed by Lambda's red as far as I can remember... |
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2012-01-17, 18:46 | Link #27102 | ||||
The True Culprit
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2012-01-17, 19:25 | Link #27103 | |||||
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Though a gamemaster would probably have to make up explanations that made more sense like: "You can't. It's forbidden to get close." And if you insist in trying to get close regardless have something that would take your attention away from it or that would force you to move away. Though in a RP we ended up managing to find a solution to open a door we weren't supposed to open at such a early stage cornering the gamemaster. Quote:
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No person can keep in her field of vision so many people and see them all at the same time. So Erika technically can never see everyone present in the parlour at the same time. Of course in real life one can say: okay, I can't see them all at the same time but, if I keep on turning my eyes around I can check the position of everyone in a relatively quick time. In this short time in which I'm not observing Shannon or Kanon would Yasu manage to switch from one to the other and back? Without anyone noticing? What is she, Superman or a trasformist? I personally wouldn't buy it... but in game 6 is said that the only way for Erika to prove that the 'corpses' were dead for sure was... well, to cut their head. Since they were merely faking death technically they should have been still breathing, their heart beating, and they should have been able to react to pain. In short it shouldn't have be so hard to prove they were merely faking. Now... Erika wanted them dead, all right, but there's still the fact that everyone is secure she couldn't prove they were dead in any other way. So the trick is a devil proof. As Piece Erika can't keep everyone under control at the same time we can't deny the possibility that Yasu was speedchanging continuously as stupid as this can sound. So, even if Meta Erika were to look at the scene through Piece Erika's eyes, she couldn't deny that Shannon or Kanon were in the room at the same time because they could have been in two different locations and to gaze at one would force her not to gaze at the other. The narrative is from Battler so, even if he were to see Shannon and Kanon at the same time it wouldn't be reliable so for Lambda it was possible to work up a trick in which she implied Shannon and Kanon were in the parlour at the same time and Erika could have not noticed that actually when one of them was present the other was absent. Through the trick is in itself pretty ridicule (Yasu speedchanging her clothes and no one noticing? This would be weird.) it's not more weird that Erika not noticing/checking that Kanon was nowhere in EP 6... or for people not noticing that Shannon and Kanon have the same face... or for people believing that Shannon and Kanon were two separate people. Personally I don't really like much the Shkannon thing in Umineko... but as it looks like that's what Ryukishi planned and everyone in Rokkenjima swallowed I guess I can't put past him to use a trick like the one I described. Quote:
Which means in the parlour scene she couldn't see Kanon and Shannon at the same time but couldn't see first one and then the other at short distance of time. As the same might be applied to all the characters in the parlour (for example Natsuhi and Eva might have never been close enough she could observe them at the same time) I think even if piece Erika didn't see Kanon and Shannon at teh same time she didn't find it relevant. Quote:
Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-17 at 19:36. |
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2012-01-17, 19:56 | Link #27104 | |||
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Aside from the perception theory you gave, and the additional body theory I brought up, the only other theories seem to involve meta-world stuff, which I just really don't like. It should be irrelevant in this case, anyway, because what we're looking at is why Meta-Erika didn't notice the lack of Kanon, not why we didn't notice. What we saw was from Battler's perspective, but what Meta-Erika saw through her piece's eyes should have been different and much more accurate. Quote:
2. Aura seems to have found a theory for the same face thing, in her post right before yours. 3. I think the best theory for this is probably that Yasu was bribing people to play along and treat Kanon as a different person. Quote:
Plus, you can easily use wonderful Reds like all people can only use their own names and still get this past the radar easily, because Yasu owns all of these names. Things like this make me think it's just really witty. After all, if you can come up with a possible theory for something that seems completely impossible, then you have a much higher chance of winning (if you're on the witch side). And I really just love logic games like that. Reading Umineko has given me the insatiable desire to trap people in crazy, impossible-looking closed rooms, and dare them to find a way out, and cackle at them from the shadows (in an RP setting, that is. or something of that sort anyway). |
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2012-01-17, 20:28 | Link #27105 | |||
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Nothing Battler observes is a delusion. His viewpoint in EP1-4 is 100% reliable until the end of each game: Midnight of the second day. As the Detective, he cannot witness illusions and delusions, and everything he experiences is trustworthy.
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2012-01-17, 20:43 | Link #27106 | |
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I just want to confirm whether or not there was anything questionable about his perspective here, but it would take forever for me to go through the text again, so... |
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2012-01-17, 21:11 | Link #27107 | ||||||||||
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The point is: since piece!Erika couldn't keep everyone under control at the same time and, if she tried to keep them under control as much as humanly possible she would have looked ridicule (in EP 5 Erika is trying to fit in... if she had kept looking around she would have looked suspicious) Erika never bothered trying to force the issue of not witnessing Shannon and Kanon at the same time in Ep 5 nor noticed it... because most likely they weren't the only ones whom she couldn't see at the same time. However I think Shannon changed into Kanon at least once (meaning she left and turned dressed up as Kanon) or twice so that piece!Erika could see everyone in the parlour although not everyone at the same time. And this is for what I think the trick was. However if Erika was trying to force the issue and saying her piece was costantly looking around Lambda could have switched to something similar. Carefully moving the pieces so that Yasu would have time to change herself before coming again into Erika's vision. Note that the time seems short because we think that Erika is purposely targetting Shannon and Kanon but it gets longer if Erika has no idea this might be the trick being played and that the one she should check are Shannon and Kanon. Also she had no plans to consider a servant as the culprit so maybe, after seeing one and then the other, she kept looking at what the adults and cousins were doing and not at what Kanon and Shannon were doing. Quote:
This is how Battler 'saw' the scene through his piece's eyes. Quote:
Second hint is that Shannon is behind Erika... so it's likely she wasn't in Erika's field of vision at the moment as Erika is facing the cousins to greet them. The same goes for Kumasawa and possibly Genji (who might have moved out of Erika's field of vision after he introduced the cousins to Erika). So in the moment in which EVERYONE was in the parlour at least two, maybe three people were out of Erika's field of vision. We've no info about piece!Erika turning to look behind her so as to check if Shannon and Kumasawa were really there. We only know she was acting dignified (which I guess means no keeping on looking around). By the time she finished speaking with the cousins and she could turn and check if Shannon was really there Lambda might have said that Shannon and Kumasawa left. Meanwhile Kanon might have left as well and showed up short later as Shannon. Same trick as when Battler saw Kinzo and Erika was turned. Her reliable perspective would have allowed her to see that yes, Battler was really in front of her with the two cousins, and remember what she saw once this person were to enter in her field of vision but not that Shannon wasn't behind her anymore... Quote:
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Another problem is Kanon must have been witnessed by more than just the people on Rokkenjima that day or the police could easily discover his non-existence. Just saying he went to Jessica's school wouldn't be enough because it would be possible to construct a theory saying that Jessica invited to school someone who didn't work on Rokkenjima. In short the other servants of the Ushiromiya who werent' in service that day should have seen Kanon and be able to confirm he was working for the Ushiromiya by at least around 2 years (or, at least prior than Gohda was hired). Also technically we're told Kanon had birth before Yasu discovered the gold so she couldn't bribe people into believing in Kanon. In an old theory of mine I assumed Natsuhi, Krauss, Kumasawa and Genji knew Shannon and Kanon were the same person and were using Kanon to make the siblings and the other servants believe that Kinzo was still alive using Kanon as a witnesser that Kinzo... was eating in his room for example. This would allow them to have Kinzo almost always 'under control', without forcing Shannon or Genji or Kumasawa to neglect their own duties to serve a dead Kinzo. Kanon had birth as immaginary creature before Yasu discovered the gold, but gained 'an existence in the real world' only after Kinzo died. Quote:
It reminds me of a old logic game 'how can you place a horse in a fridge in three actions?'. Although the solution is 'logic' it would never work in the real world unless you go and say when you say friedge or horse you aren't meaning the first thing that would come to everyone's mind. Quote:
The only rule we're given is that the detective should not witness magic scenes (or better that his perspective must be reliable so no magic scenes can be witnessed). Battler was the detective for Ep 1-4 so at best there can be a difference between piece!Erika and Ep5piece!Battler. (actually I'd like it very much if there was a guide book for the rules pieces has to follow) Or are you speaking of something else? Quote:
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"Oh, so you two aren't related? How odd, he looks so much like you." The same works for Erika as she has a great visual memory and should notice the oddity of the two of them looking so similar and not being related. She might miss it in the paint because maybe it's not perfectly accurate but real faces can't lie. Though again it's possible that Erika do not pay attention to servants. Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-01-17 at 21:28. |
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2012-01-17, 22:00 | Link #27108 | |
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The instance where he asked Maria to present Beatrice and she appeared behind him was in the Tea-Party of the First episode, which was a Meta-World event. Beatrice in EP4 could have been someone in a costume, and in fact probably was, since we know SOMEONE is pretending to be here. Battler's perspective is objective and reliable as a Detective. This is not refutable.
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2012-01-17, 22:05 | Link #27109 | ||||
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2012-01-18, 03:38 | Link #27110 | |||
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No you haven't. You're earlier explanation only addresses how there could be distortion in a story without a Reader, which neither addresses the idea that "having no Reader"="absolutely no falsehoods contained in the narrated text", nor does it address why they were all saying that a Reader can add distortion to a story.
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I think that it's possible that everything about Erika, including her super human skills and her ridiculous meta-oriented behavior, is guided by the fact that she's the piece of "The Witch of Miracles", not by any kind of special access to meta-knowledge. Just because she's a "tool" doesn't mean the fact that she's the Reader is irrelevant. Which tool you use to complete a job will affect the process, and possibly even the result, of the job. |
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2012-01-18, 04:16 | Link #27111 |
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By the way, I was looking into the idea that Yasu has no concept of self-identity and I found an interesting article:
Abstract here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8337306 Full article here: http://www.ijpsy.com/volumen4/num3/9...f-sense-EN.pdf I was less interested in the treatments it described and more about the types of changes after a brain injury. Circa 1993, and I'm sure we've made much more progress in the last 19 years, but I think most of the descriptions of brain injuries are still true. While it doesn't exactly address Yasu's condition, it *does* address Tooya's condition, including the part about feeling that after the brain injury they are a totally different person, basically coming from realizing changes in behavior and viewing the changes in a negative manner. It could be that Tooya was no longer the outgoing friendly Battler and it's not George that was just jealous of this, but Tooya specifically brought it up because he felt this change too. And also the "fear of psychological annihilation" (from the paper) which Tooya experienced, although his was a fear of his former self re-emerging and overwriting his current self (which he had learned to deal with eventually.) And then, there is THIS chessboard analogy which I'm sure is just a coincidence... right? Spoiler for Flip over the chessboard!:
Yeah... gotta be a coincidence. Yeah... >_> I'm pretty sure Ryukishi would have researched brain disorders for Tooya at the least. But I'm wondering how much of what Yasu suffered was ironically exactly what Tooya suffered. Tooya didn't go around insisting he was several different people, however. Unless... hmmm... Maybe Ikuko was a figment of Tooya's imagination? Although I don't think the house, servant and money was a figment of his imagination though... Anyways, it's a good read you want to know a bit more about Tooya's brain injuries. Any thoughts? |
2012-01-18, 05:24 | Link #27112 |
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Argh, sorry for the double post. My brain started working and now I can't sleep, so I need to get this written down.
It makes more and more sense that Yasu has severe problems with self-identity in that she most likely has no actual self identity. Basically that, yes, her Shkannontrice identities are masks or personas and they are not fully formed people, but instead, if you remove that mask you'd actually find nothing underneath. Several things keep me thinking like this: 1. Obviously the Shkannontrice act. Why is it that this her cry to Battler? Umineko's theme isn't her saying, "Hey, Battler, the real one you love is Yasu." The fact that she juggles these personas is something she desperately wanted to say to Battler. This is not how someone (normal ) who has a real identity would act; they would be eager to discard the mask and let that person know the real them. Or of course they would normally hide them; but then she wouldn't have written Umineko to be something where Battler can discover the truth. But the main thing is that Yasu didn't give out hints, like... ever... about who or what she *truly* was; I'm thinking that there was no truly *anything* to speak of. She kept putting these personas in front; that was what she kept trying to clue him on. 2. What LyricalAura said about furniture makes the most sense to me now. Furniture are people whose lives and actions are scripted by others. Shkannon both fall under this and so does Genji to a degree. Certainly Yasu was able to manipulate Genji to do her bidding with minimal effort and probably he did whatever Kinzo told him to as well. Beatrice seems to pretend that she's not furniture though, and we see evidence that she is much more action oriented than Shannon, although she admits to being furniture once in awhile, IIRC. She acts, but is limited in her actions too, perhaps? This brings me to the red flashing scene in EP7 where Yasu screams at GenSawaJo at how it's as if she's nothing but 'furniture.' I can understand that not having a self identity means not having a willpower to act *for* the self. Until, of course she learned to place these desires into Beatrice and Shannon; her way of dealing with it. But dealing with the original injury did not belong to any of her personas; it belonged to her 'self', which must have felt like she realized that she really died back then and existed as a shell now. What this means to me is that it would explain why this scene was merely a flash, a counterpoint to the beautiful loving scene chapters before; if you have no self identity you can't say, "It would have been better if you left *me* to die." The 'me' shouldn't make sense to someone who has no self identity, but the sentiment was there. So I'm wondering if the flash scenes were things she wanted to say but couldn't. And if that sentiment was bottled up without expression after 15 or so years... well, that can certainly explain enough self-deprecating rage to kill everyone. Or at least Gensawajo. It can also explain why something minor like Battler's promise would seem like some kind of massive hope to her. 3. This is why other characters in the episodes, like Jessica in EP2 keep talking about having different personalities. Over and over again. It wouldn't make sense to think that the entire cast suffered from DID; instead it makes sense if this was a major re-occuring theme and Yasu was speaking through them in EP1 and 2. And that maybe she's noting and studying that other people have this ability to wear different personas as well. Jessica, Rosa, Maria from her direct EP1-2 writings have all been shown to have 'multiple personalities,' but of course, they're merely the personas that they wear. Eva too in EP3 and later with her Eva-Beatrice personality. I see this as Yasu using this to help identify herself with the others; to feel out the different personas other people wear. Maybe it's that she doesn't know how to connect with the inner self of other people because she has no experience with hers, but she can connect with people's outer selves. Also, didn't Hideyoshi mention some stuff off-hand about some historical figure that also had this same theme? Did anyone else mention stuff off-hand? A re-play-through with this thought in mind might be very enlightening. Evidence ends here. Now here are some consequences and further thoughts if this is true... IF it's true, please bear in mind. 8) First thought that comes to mind: That Bernkastel named her Yasu and called her the one responsible for the other personalities. If you think about this carefully, it seems to me to be an insult by Bern. "Hey, you're just pretending to have this disability. I will call you Yasu and give you an identity to make people believe that you're stupid and/or crazy." You guys know about how I've never really felt too strongly that Yasu is a 'real' name since it coincides so much with the "Hanin ha Yasu" meme. I think this makes sense if this is Bernkastel's way of crushing the truth; by pretending that someone has an identity when they don't. Which makes this one of her greatest final moves; Yasu's actions make no sense if there was a healthy individual behind them and yet if we just say she's 'psycho' that doesn't provide a satisfying answer. This is something we still haven't surmounted even now. Another thought: If this is actually true, then she should have suffered the loss of her abilities (as per the brain article I posted in the last message) when she was .. what was it, 1 or 2 years old? Not old enough to detect the changes in abilities or personality for sure. So she grew up happy to be herself, not knowing any better. Or she may have assumed everyone else was like her; or perhaps she realized she was somewhat 'special' (uhhh.. in a good way. 8) ) Then Gensawajo break the news to her, "No, you're actually disabled, you have no ability in places where EVERYONE does." On some level, she probably wouldn't know how to respond, but there must be some part which suddenly realizes that she's not 'good special' anymore, but 'speshul' instead. This realization should have been a huge trauma. This could explain the change from Happy Glowy Beatrice to bitter, derisive and self-deprecating (to the other personalities) Beatrice at the time of her inheritance of the gold. One problem: Battler. How the @#$! would he, "And then I knew?" I don't imagine that he goes around reading brain injury papers from 1993 in 1986. And I don't imagine Shannon would have told him something like that and he would forget it. That'd be pretty loser-ish, Battler. 8) The only thing I can think of is that, is there's a detective novel, or similar novel where the villain has the same problem? I've noticed that ever since Psycho in 1960 (and probably even earlier), the field of brain injuries or psychological disorders was a gold mine for creating villains. Was there a story, especially a detective story where the antagonist, or at least any character suffered the same problem? If there was, then this would probably be the strongest clue of them all. It means that Battler would be able to put 2-and-2 together immediately just by recalling one story he and Shannon shared, rather than somehow figuring out on the spot all the dropped clues from several episodes. Anyways, lots of ideas to digest here. I think this does gives us another view of Umineko itself. By the way, Renall, if you like this theory, can you give it a catchy name like you did last time? :3 Last edited by Kylon99; 2012-01-18 at 05:52. |
2012-01-18, 09:27 | Link #27113 | ||
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None, save one exchange that only means what you want it to mean if you already think it means that. You also still haven't resolved any of the actual issues with that scene, so I'd continue to classify your theory as useless as I have no idea what exactly anyone is supposed to do with this claim.
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2012-01-18, 13:05 | Link #27114 | |
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If you accuse me of interpreting it only the way that I want to, then you better give me some kind of alternative possible interpretation that I am failing to see. Else you're just being an antagonistic jerk without reason to back it up. |
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2012-01-18, 13:07 | Link #27115 | ||||||||
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The "No Reader = No Falsehoods" thing is complete bullshit if only on the grounds that Bern's Game totally has falsehoods. Quote:
In EP5 she shouts for Bernkastel's forgiveness before being stricken down into her seat like a puppet. Quote:
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Your argument is special pleading one way or another because you're using different forms of reasoning at different parts of the theory that are only superficially separate from each other, and your shuffling of semantics doesn't get around the fundamental problems and criticisms being raised against your theory. Quote:
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2012-01-18, 14:17 | Link #27116 | ||
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If Erika was playing, and Erika was in the parlor, Erika's perspective ought to mean something (i.e. she cannot have seen Shannon and Kanon both unless, as Kealym suggests, there actually were two of them; and if she did see two of them when there weren't two, it needs to be explained). You just handwave this and ignore it. Stop that. That's the entire crux of the problem with that scene, and your tangent hasn't done much of anything to approach it. We are aware of what Erika ought to have seen, and we don't actually need to have seen the original playthrough to know that. We know what the narration says Erika should have seen, and we know that Erika and Meta-Erika are in some sense connected (although we don't know how or to what extent). We also know how Meta-Erika acts, and from this there is certain information we can infer (e.g. she thinks Shannon and Kanon are different persons). What she should know and what she does know don't add up. Saying "she assumed they were separate so it was depicted that they are even though her piece would not have seen that" is something which has never happened during a game. Battler made a lot of false assumptions in ep1-4, but they didn't suddenly become true because he did so. We know this because we have independent confirmation. For example, Battler assumes the chapel is locked in ep2. He never actually confirms that it isn't. By your reasoning, the chapel became locked as a result, or would have actually been locked on a replay of the same events to an observer of the game. Except Will says the answer is "it wasn't locked" (in so many words). And Our Confessions makes clear that Beatrice has intended solutions to each of her tricks. So even though Battler can interact in some way and she can improvise in some way, she can't make the chapel suddenly be locked if the whole trick was "make a big show of giving the key to Maria, then don't actually lock the chapel door." The chapel door will never be locked, Shannon's body will never be in the ep1 shed, and if the adults posted a guard at every room they checked in ep3's First Twilight Kanon would never be found in the chapel. The only difference is whether Battler actually confirms it by being present through his piece and doing something. If the "trick" of ep5's parlor scene was "Shannon and Kanon swap out a couple times to give Erika the impression that both are in the room," or "Kanon was never actually in Erika's line of sight," we should have seen that. Instead, we get Battler's perspective description and Lambda's instantaneous assurance. These are things Erika ought to have noticed, but she apparently didn't. That is what we must adequately address, if we even can. Quote:
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2012-01-18, 15:05 | Link #27117 | ||||
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I, uh... Just want to say that this is pretty amazing. I can't really process and understand all of it, let alone all of the implications of it, but it seems to be at least somewhat grounded in canon, especially because of things like:
(EP7) "Ah, where is this place?! And who am I?!" "Then let me ask! Where do you want it to be? Who do you want to be?!" "Any place, so long as it will wrap itself around me gently! Anyone, so long as I am treated kindly!" "Yes, for us...!" "For us...!" ""Where and who we are hardly matters!!"" And it allows an interesting parallel between Tohya and Yasu, and between the injuries the two suffered. Not only that, but it seems to imply even more strongly that BATTLER's logic error is a parallel for the Battler between suffering brain damage and the epilogue, when Beatrice finally reached him. Well, it's also a parallel for how Yasu felt during those 6 years though, of course. Quote:
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On a game board, the GM is the Reader. As a result of their Reading, the Fantasy side of the story is established. If the GM doesn't function as a Reader, then you will only see the Mystery side, like in Our Confessions. EDIT: Well, of course, the GM can also have someone else Read for them, though. Quote:
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What we saw is Lambda Reading the scene to us from a non-detective perspective. Thus, any amount of illusions could have been added. EDIT: Nevermind. I think I get it now. Meta-Erika is seeing what we see? I don't see any basis for believing that at all... |
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2012-01-18, 15:07 | Link #27118 | |
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There's also no evidence for your interpretation. How do you know she didn't just hit the rewind button on the game board? Oh, because there's no evidence the game board has a rewind button? Exactly.
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2012-01-18, 15:12 | Link #27119 | |
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By the way, can you clarify on what you mean by the logic error being a parallel? Like Battler's mind/self being trapped away and Battler's outer self being a non-entity yet another representation of this same theme? Last edited by Kylon99; 2012-01-18 at 15:26. |
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2012-01-18, 15:20 | Link #27120 | |
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Whether the GM does the Reading or someone else does though, I don't think it matters... The only times that we didn't have a Reader, as far as I can tell, are in Bern's puzzle and in Our Confessions. Shouldn't it be obvious that every other game board we see has a Reader? I'm pretty sure Lambda should be the Reader for EP5, I mean, it has to be either her or Bern doing it. And it looks like it's Lambda. Therefore, shouldn't it follow that Lambda is also Reading the parlor scene, which is part of EP5? And she has more than enough authority to distort the scene however she pleases, as long as it leads to the same results. However, the detective, who sees things through the eyes of their Piece, should be able to see what's really happening. Which means that the Reader argument shouldn't have much place in this particular discussion. |
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