[Game] Ougon Musou Kyoku ~ Symphony of Golden Dreams

[~Ayane~]

Most players would agree that having a 50 characters roster is not only overkill, but hugely detrimental to the very gameplay of the game, unless the designers are extremely competent and creative.

But I don't understand your point? It's not like people are whining for new characters out of thin air. People are whining for characters that are long known to be included.

OMK original roster wasn't make magically either: the project took them at least 2 years according Ryukishi and they realize well they can't please everyone so they have to narrow their choices: you definitely can't make a large roster for a game like this. You can't create a balance as if it would magically be done itself.

But I don't understand your point? It's not like people are whining for new characters out of thin air. People are whining for characters that are long known to be included.

A fighting game by itself, has to be interesting by its gameplay and mechanic: the franchise alone just can't sell itself with the service itself, as not offering an interesting gameplay would just waste the concept and diminish the sales by a huge margin.

What are you talking about? This game is not mainstream, it was made for fans. Do you seriously believe anyone other than Umineko fans are going to play it? Do you think those fans require the quality of an AAA title to buy and play it? It's not the same thing as Tekken or even Blazblue. It's never going to be a tournament game, or even a party game. This is a niche title, produced to entertain the fans.
If they wanted it to be a full fledged retail game, it wouldn't be a Comiket release.

Also

In case of bern and lamba, they have to make their moves, abilities, -hitbox- and all to be balanced -and- completely in line with what they are in the original story.
And basing everything on the plot would be disastrous, because it would make the game completely silly in term of balance (hence the very reason why I really hope they won't pull a funny move by adding featherine). Even with all the nerf you can add, balance is the most precarious element of a fighting game, and you can't just base on fanservice for this kind of game, especially the likes of OMK.

This argument is silly. Plot is the last thing they care about in that kind of games. Half of the moves the characters have are already joke moves or made up moves. Please, don't try to pull the "Adding Lambda and Bern is too hard, because they are more powerful than the rest so balancing them so it makes sense takes time", when the entire roster is made out of characters that are incompatible with other characters when it comes to power level.
Canonically, neither George, nor Jessica, nor Rosa and her shotgun, would stand any chance with any of the witches, or the furniture. Canonically, Lucifer would have a hard time dealing with her sisters, let alone Chiester or other witches, and here you have her, being one of the top tiers, cannonically neither Shannon nor Kanon could compete with witches and demons, cannonicaly blue truth is supposed to form theories and not fly at people trying to hurt them even if they don't try to disprove you, there is also no Oppai attack, Ange don't summon Sakutaro to throw him while battling, canonically Shannon can't even fight, she can only defend herself, and there is nothing like a seagull attack anywhere in the series.
I could go on and on. The point is Bernlam are just characters like any other, so no, there is no excuse that "baww, but Will is easier plotwise".
Heck, they had a whole year to think up those things, and certainly they did. It's not like they are developing the game at the last moment, the biggest part is probably already done.
Cross isn't even a sequel. It's just a big expansion. You say it took them 2 years to make a game from scratch. All they had to do is add those new characters and some new levels. One year for an expansion is lots of time. If they are doing anything now, it's probably beta testing, so yes, if they wanted to, they could have release whichever of those characters first and it wouldn't made any difference.

Anyway, feel free to ignore my rant, everyone. I'm just mad because

I'm waiting for Bern since the first Ougon and then Will is the first being released?? >.<

With vanilla Ougon, the characters where developed alongside each other,
so balance was easier to keep track off, now they're adding characters to an already existing roster and have to balance them up with the rest of the cast.

Yeah, yeah. And they still managed to add George, Jessica, Rosa, BBatller, Erika, Dlanor, and now Will along the way and the world still hasn't ended.
That's not the point.
They could have add Bern and Lambda ages ago already, and it would make no difference.

Better to release a game to meet deadline and actively support it through taking advantage of patching later down the road. It's even free since you DID pay for the complete product even though it wasn't actually completely there from day 1.
That's loads better than Capcom, who release unfinished products claiming them to be complete games, then support them with paid content while still purpously keeping things away so they can add another paid update on a new disk.

But we are not talking about Capcom now? I don't even play their fighting games.

[SkullClad]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

What are you talking about? This game is not mainstream, it was made for fans. Do you seriously believe anyone other than Umineko fans are going to play it? Do you think those fans require the quality of an AAA title to buy and play it? It's not the same thing as Tekken or even Blazblue. It's never going to be a tournament game, or even a party game. This is a niche title, produced to entertain the fans.

It's irrelevant the purpose of making the game. Being a fighting game, OMK must be treated as such. So, gameplay and fighting mechanisms still must be in forefront.

This argument is silly. Plot is the last thing they care about in that kind of games. Half of the moves the characters have are already joke moves or made up moves.

Fighting games (or DECENT fighting games at least) have a decent plot. Examples? Guilty Gear and BlazBlue. Although as I said before, gameplay and mechanisms still must be the focus. And in OMK they worries about the story, hence the combinations that lead for finals (although mostly joke endings). And if was to have only the characters that actually fight as in-game without joke or made up moves, the roster would be reduced to half, at the very least.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

But I don't understand your point? It's not like people are whining for new characters out of thin air. People are whining for characters that are long known to be included.

And you really don't understand the issue: You seem to imply they have to include as much characters as they can, despite a humongous roster does not help at all.

Umineko roster by itself is already way too big, and your comments imply you want all of the characters to be complete, which I digress.

What are you talking about? This game is not mainstream, it was made for fans. Do you seriously believe anyone other than Umineko fans are going to play it? Do you think those fans require the quality of an AAA title to buy and play it? It's not the same thing as Tekken or even Blazblue. It's never going to be a tournament game, or even a party game. This is a niche title, produced to entertain the fans.
If they wanted it to be a full fledged retail game, it wouldn't be a Comiket release.

Actually, there is a growing base who are playing the game without much knowledge of Umineko. They are the minority, that's a given, however that doesn't stop the game to expand itself past the original fanbase.
Furthermore, being stuck with the fanbase is not productive for a fighting game.

The argument doesn't hold much water when we have games like Melty Blood, which was initially a fanbase aimed game, and became a huge hit. And 07th Expansion never hided the fact they want to make the game at least above your usual doujin game (otherwise, updates wouldn't even be bothered aside of additional characters).

This argument is silly. Plot is the last thing they care about in that kind of games. Half of the moves the characters have are already joke moves or made up moves. Please, don't try to pull the "Adding Lambda and Bern is too hard, because they are more powerful than the rest so balancing them so it makes sense takes time", when the entire roster is made out of characters that are incompatible with other characters when it comes to power level.
Canonically, neither George, nor Jessica, nor Rosa and her shotgun, would stand any chance with any of the witches, or the furniture. Canonically, Lucifer would have a hard time dealing with her sisters, let alone Chiester or other witches, and here you have her, being one of the top tiers, cannonically neither Shannon nor Kanon could compete with witches and demons, cannonicaly blue truth is supposed to form theories and not fly at people trying to hurt them even if they don't try to disprove you, there is also no Oppai attack, Ange don't summon Sakutaro to throw him while battling, canonically Shannon can't even fight, she can only defend herself, and there is nothing like a seagull attack anywhere in the series.
I could go on and on. The point is Bernlam are just characters like any other, so no, there is no excuse that "baww, but Will is easier plotwise".
Heck, they had a whole year to think up those things, and certainly they did. It's not like they are developing the game at the last moment, the biggest part is probably already done.

Made up moves, despite most of them fit the characters? It doesn't make sense for a fighting game not to include moves and all that -match- the characters (few exceptions such like Shannon's seagull attack, but filling attacks are requied to make a character fully functional).
I'm not talking about "canonic" power level, I'm talking about canonic theme, which would be difficult without tweeking them, which is the very reason why the game can be balanced: they have to make sure that, if they keep Lambda as she was depicted in ep8, that her "sucking gravity" wouldn't be absurdly powerful. That or the splash damage of her fireworks candies etc.
Likewise, adapting Bern's cats isn't that simple considering what Ryukishi had in mind for her.
This is the reason why I also insisted that "basing everything on the plot would be disastrous", because keeping canonical power level would just be stupid as heck. You really didn't get the whole point of my argument.

It is quite weird to me that you call my argument "silly" despite you claim all and high it is a fanservice game: it is exactly because it has fanservice component coupled with balance that they have to be careful in the moveset of the new characters, so it would please the fans AND do -not- break the game.

Adapting everything so characters are on even footing is already difficult. But doing so while you already have an established roster is a complete different matter.

Cross isn't even a sequel. It's just a big expansion. You say it took them 2 years to make a game from scratch. All they had to do is add those new characters and some new levels. One year for an expansion is lots of time. If they are doing anything now, it's probably beta testing, so yes, if they wanted to, they could have release whichever of those characters first and it wouldn't made any difference.

Of course it would make a huge difference: why do you think they toned down Black Battler for Netplay for instance? Why did they change Ronove's meta super damage scale?
So many points make it obvious they care a lot for the balance of the game, and there is an underlying good reason for that: if the game is not interesting, it won't be played/bought, which is the last thing a game designer would like to.
And past the simple fanservice interest, the game has to be fun, hence balanced so people wouldn't be stuck with the same kind of pairing/combos thrown at them, which was the case during the initial version of OMK.

1 year for Cross is definitely an indication of how they wanted to polish the games, past just adding "more characters".
This is also the very obvious reason why they went ahead and added jessica for -testing purpose- : they wanted to know if the direction they have taken with new characters are appropriate with the current roster, especially when OMK X on Xbox was to be released months later.

[Nanashi_1337]

Anyone that says that fighting games should be completely accurate in terms of power with source games is just being silly.

Just imagine this happens in MB. With ArcheType Earth. There would be no point fighting against it with the majority of characters because in theory she's way overpowered if we follow what we know about ArcheTypes.

As it has been said, this is a fighting game. Fighting mechanics AND balance are the top most important things. If you want fanservice, go and watch anime.

[Snow_Storm]

If 07th Expansion winds up throwing all they characters they ever created from Higurashi to Umineko to even the new 07th Expansion original VN that came out, it would wind up being like Marvel Vs. Capcom 2: Unbalanced, full of clones, and a copypasta.

Also, Bernkastel will be released on April Fools Day! You heard it first!

[Captain Bluebeard]

I just noticed something terribly awkward...
You know how Battler goes 'let me rub 'em, let me rum 'em!!" whenever he is carrying out his 'boobie' attack on female characters, but goes 'eeeew~ he's a maaan!!' whenever it is on a male character? Well...When he carries out that move against Black Battler, his reaction is the first rather than the latter....Creepy?

[Snow_Storm]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

I just noticed something terribly awkward...
You know how Battler goes 'let me rub 'em, let me rum 'em!!" whenever he is carrying out his 'boobie' attack on female characters, but goes 'eeeew~ he's a maaan!!' whenever it is on a male character? Well...When he carries out that move against Black Battler, his reaction is the first rather than the latter....Creepy?

That's because Black Battler's so sexy, even Good Battler want to rub on him.

It's that sexy suit, man!

Speaking of Black Battler, has anyone translated his victory quotes in the aracade mode? I really wanna know what he be saying when he kills his victims.

[Nanashi_1337]

He's right. When he uses his Breast Sommelier attack, he uses the same dialogue as if he was fighting a girl, except for the second part of the super version (after grabbing).

[Azule]

Does anyone know if they still use the same Youtube channel? I was looking earlier incase they add gameplay of the missing characters sometime soon.

[Walterion]

Originally Posted by Azule

Does anyone know if they still use the same Youtube channel? I was looking earlier incase they add gameplay of the missing characters sometime soon.

they rarely ever upload something like that. I think since the start of OMK X they haven't uploaded a character ''tutorial'' video.

In anycase, I'm glad we could all have this heated up conversation about the characters being released 1 at the time, that would make the patching process faster , considering Jessica's patch was around 600-700 MB, imagine for all 3 of them together. Also, I expect a few things to be fixed, like point blank blacktruths launching people to the other side of the screen.


In anycase, I'm thrilled to know about Will's ability and what role will he be filling in. Will he be a combo beast? Will he be any other role? Time will just tell us.

[SkullClad]

Originally Posted by Walterion

In anycase, I'm thrilled to know about Will's ability and what role will he be filling in. Will he be a combo beast? Will he be any other role? Time will just tell us.

I expect him to be a combo beast, at least. Moreover he'll fight using a sword, very interesting.

[~Ayane~]

Spoiler for Size:

And you really don't understand the issue: You seem to imply they have to include as much characters as they can, despite a humongous roster does not help at all.

Umineko roster by itself is already way too big, and your comments imply you want all of the characters to be complete, which I digress.

Please, I would appreciate if you stopped shoving words inside my mouth.
I couldn't imply something like this, when I hardly even care for any characters being there or not, aside of Bernlam.

The argument doesn't hold much water when we have games like Melty Blood, which was initially a fanbase aimed game, and became a huge hit. And 07th Expansion never hided the fact they want to make the game at least above your usual doujin game (otherwise, updates wouldn't even be bothered aside of additional characters).

And yet, I wouldn't even know what is "Melty Blood" if I wasn't a regular at certain sites.
I'm not sure what is your definition of "big hit", but the average gamer will not know what is OMK, if you asked them. I'm yet to see it being discussed anywhere aside of Umineko related forums or single threads on sites dedicated to other fighting games.
I'm not denying it's a good game, but it's not exactly targeted at general fighting games scene. Or, if it is, it's not really there yet.

Made up moves, despite most of them fit the characters? It doesn't make sense for a fighting game not to include moves and all that -match- the characters (few exceptions such like Shannon's seagull attack, but filling attacks are requied to make a character fully functional).
I'm not talking about "canonic" power level, I'm talking about canonic theme, which would be difficult without tweeking them, which is the very reason why the game can be balanced: they have to make sure that, if they keep Lambda as she was depicted in ep8, that her "sucking gravity" would be absurdly powerful. That or the splash damage of her fireworks candies etc.
Likewise, adapting Bern's cats isn't that simple considering what Ryukishi had in mind for her.

It is quite weird to me that you call my argument "silly" despite you claim all and high it is a fanservice game: it is exactly because it has fanservice component coupled with balance that they have to be careful in the moveset of the new characters, so it would please the fans AND do -not- break the game.

Oh, and here you are just repeating yourself, using different words. So let me also repeat myself.
You, again claim, that Lambda and Bern are harder to add than the rest of the cast, because their powers are hard to interpret gameplay wise. And I again claim, that this is just being naive and making up excuses, where there is no issue at all.
This is basically the kind of argument of "insert X and it will still aply". Using your argument, one could say exactly the same thing about every other character.
Lucifer's or Kanon's sword are ridiculously uneffective against anyone that isn't a human. Beato's Towers or Virgilia spears are supposed to be finishing blows, and yet you have them here being used as a regular spam attacks. Shannon's barrier isn't even meant to be used in an offensive fight.
You have plenty of examples of moves that fit characters, but aren't canonically correct.
It seems you agree with this.
And yet a second later you claim that "keeping Lambda as she was depicted in ep8 is impossible because for example her"sucking gravity" would be absurdly powerful".
Well, I thought we already established, that we are not keeping attacks as they were originally depicted, for the sake of balance or even for playability?
The sole core of your argument seems to be that somehow Bern and Lambda are different than the others, so them being last is justified. But this is simply not true. Each and every character had to be tweaked to make them work in this game, those two are just the same. If anything, I could say, that adding someone like Will is way harder. Because what do you know about how he fights? He's got a sword...and ? With Lambda and Bern, you know more about who they are, about how they fight, all those little trivia about them, that could be used as a base of attack.
And in the first place, why are we talking about things that are being completed during the concept design? Any decent game designer, who knows the source material would have no problem with making a believable moveset, for any of the characters, and they proved already that they don't. And besides, with one,two months away from the release date, the DLC guys are probably already happily running around on internal pc's. And we just have to wait because marketing.

Adapting everything so characters are on even footing is already difficult. But doing so while you already have an established roster is a complete different matter

But they already did that 6 times now (7 soon) and the game is still around and kicking, so?

Of course it would make a huge difference: why do you think they toned down Black Battler for Netplay for instance? Why did they change Ronove's meta super damage scale?

I'm not sure I see the connection. I'm saying they could have focus on Bern first and not on Will and there is no basis to think they couldn't/shouldn't.

So many points make it obvious they care a lot for the balance of the game, and there is an underlying good reason for that: if the game is not interesting, it won't be played/bought, which is the last thing a game designer would like to.
And past the simple fanservice interest, the game has to be fun, hence balanced so people wouldn't be stuck with the same kind of pairing/combos thrown at them, which was the case during the initial version of OMK.

The game wouldn't stopped being fun and balanced if Bern and Lambda were going to be released before Will though.




TL;DR: I will (have to) accept this, but please, stop making it look, like it was carefully thought through development decision and not just a whim it really was, when nothing points to it.

Fighting games (or DECENT fighting games at least) have a decent plot. Examples? Guilty Gear and BlazBlue. Although as I said before, gameplay and mechanisms still must be the focus. And in OMK they worries about the story, hence the combinations that lead for finals (although mostly joke endings). And if was to have only the characters that actually fight as in-game without joke or made up moves, the roster would be reduced to half, at the very least.

I wasn't talking about the actual plot, I was talking about how it would be impossible to have a fun game if it was consistent with source material because

if it was to have only the characters that actually fight as in-game without joke or made up moves, the roster would be reduced to half, at the very least.

oh...so you agree with me?

Also? Story in OMK? Oh please...

It's irrelevant the purpose of making the game. Being a fighting game, OMK must be treated as such. So, gameplay and fighting mechanisms still must be in forefront.

Hm..I'm not going to argue about the point of this game any further, but let me just say, that pleasing fans is quite relevant, when the most of the buying demographic are fans of WTC and not the hardcoar fighter fans.
I'm not saying they shouldn't aim to make the best game possible, but also we shouldn't fool ourselves by pretending that the biggest selling point of this title is quality and not the name of the franchise.

[cronnoponno]

I would agree that a fighting game should have balance over characters, but it's such an issue with me, I like LOADS and LOADS of characters that aren't clones, I don't care if they take 2 years to mesh it in with the current characters(I would strongly prefer that), but most fighting games I play I usually only have one or two characters I like, use, and stay with.


I have a strong dislike for George, I hate to complain about him, but I knew I'd hate his style of fighting in any fighting game period. I don't want to say he's ''overpowered'', but just looking at him fight, he feels so godlike, and his stupid rolls man...


I kinda wish they'd have added Lambda first, rather than Will, but getting a new character in Febuary isn't something I'm going to complain about, I'm totally fine with that. This might be indication that they're working even harder on Lamb and Bernkastel, which I feel would be expected. What would they make Bernkastel use? She uses a scythe in EP 7, and it seems to be a superior version to Erika's, and an army of billions of cats, but in EP 8(as far as I know), she doesn't use a scythe, and starts summoning dragons and all this shit, but that sounds really destructive and overpowered. But if they give her the scythe, she's a clone of Erika with a few differences!

Lambda has fought, once? What did she do during this fight? She went TOTAL godmode and started sucking up everything in a black hole and throwing out EXPLODING fireworks from CANDY and basically shoved bottlerockets in Bernkastels mouth(possible grab/SP2?). I figured her dark matter gravity ball thing would function similar to Shannons barrier grab attack, but that would be a glorified clone!


Will feels a little bit easier to add, maybe his style will involve disabling an opponents specials temporarily, denying them their existence or something, his sword cuts apart truth from fiction, so maybe, as opposed to Dlanor, Jessica, and Ronove having shields to block many attacks, Will simply denies them their ability to use it temporarily, but this sounds overpowered and hard to implement in a balanced way.


I would agree with the others that adding characters has got to take UNGODLY amounts of time, when Jessica first came out and her enchant basically blocked all range attacks I was like: ''Whoa okay I hate range, but doesn't this feel a little overkill?'', then Dlanor had her shield, and well I'm starting to feel that range took a serious hit because of this, B.Battler kills any ranged character because his range skill destroys stationary targets, Erika can use her afterimage attack to pretty much make a joke out of range...


At that rate, if what I said about Will is implemented, will he make a joke out of melee as well? Not that range is now useless, far from it, but it just felt like every new character they've made has some total badass way to say ''Fuck You'' to Siesta410 and Virgilia.

[SkullClad]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

And yet, I wouldn't even know what is "Melty Blood" if I wasn't a regular at certain sites.

You wouldn't. I know Melty Blood without never seen Tsukihime before. And a lot of other people too.

I'm not sure I see the connection. I'm saying they could have focus on Bern first and not on Will and there is no basis to think they couldn't/shouldn't.

Will is far easier to work. Although Bern showed up first, Will have more things to work. And Bern's habilities are harder to work in OMK at least for the time being. If they weren't, she'd showed up in first OMK, yes?

The game wouldn't stopped being fun and balanced if Bern and Lambda were going to be released before Will though.

This is your personal opinion. No discuss here, although as I said, Will was the most obvious choice to first launch.

I wasn't talking about the actual plot, I was talking about how it would be impossible to have a fun game if it was consistent with source material because
oh...so you agree with me?

Also? Story in OMK? Oh please...

Why not? Aside the Japanese legends, OMK's "story" can be considered decent.

[~Ayane~]

You wouldn't. I know Melty Blood without never seen Tsukihime before. And a lot of other people too.

I've never seen (or rather read) Tsukihime before, too, nor any other Type-moon works aside of Fate/.
A lot of other people is very vague.

X is far easier to work. Although Y showed up first, X have more things to work. And Y's habilities are harder to work in OMK at least for the time being. If they weren't, she'd showed up in first OMK, yes?

No.

This is your personal opinion. No discuss here, although as I said, Will was the most obvious choice to first launch.

Lol, wtf. This isn't even an opinion. Opinion is your saying Will was obvious to launch first.
It could be an opinion if they already got included and it bacame questionable whether they made the game unbalanced or not and if I claimed they didn't. But right know you don't know what is going to happen and the fact is, if the developers make their goddamn work done properly (which is a default aim) nothing bad should.
wtf.

[Solkiskey]

I still don't understand why it matters which character is released before which. Atleast you're getting them...

[SkullClad]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

I've never seen (or rather read) Tsukihime before, too, nor any other Type-moon works aside of Fate/.
A lot of other people is very vague.

It is not. Each one has their knowledge. The first time I heard of Melty Blood were when I was searching ARC System Works. Appeared Arcana Heart, BlazBlue and Melty Blood. So it is perfectly possible to hear "Melty Blood" without hearing "Tsukihime" before. Period.

Lol, wtf. This isn't even an opinion. Opinion is your saying Will was obvious to launch first.

Obvious that is my opinion. Will was obvious to launch first:

1 - Moveset easier (relatively)
2 - Maintain hype about Lambda and Bern

I'm surprised that all this discussion started just because Bern/Lambda wasn't launched first. Seriously, if Bern, for example, had been launched first than Will, nobody would complain that much.

[Solkiskey]

Sounds just like someone crying because they're not getting their favorite character early. =|

[~Ayane~]

It is not. Each one has their knowledge. The first time I heard of Melty Blood were when I was searching ARC System Works. Appeared Arcana Heart, BlazBlue and Melty Blood. So it is perfectly possible to hear "Melty Blood" without hearing "Tsukihime" before. Period.

I never claimed it's not? The initial argument was that Melty Blood is a huge hit despite being a doujin game. I only stated, that it may be popular within some circles, aside of Type-Moon freaks, but it's still not on par popularity wise with mainstream fighting games, so i simply wouldn't call it "huge hit".

if Bern, for example, had been launched first than Will, nobody would complain that much.

Yes, that's damn right.

[SkullClad]

Originally Posted by ~Ayane~

I never claimed it's not? The initial argument was that Melty Blood is a huge hit despite being a doujin game. I only stated, that it may be popular within some circles, aside of Type-Moon freaks, but it's still not on par popularity wise with mainstream fighting games, so i simply wouldn't call it "huge hit".

Because it is a doujin game. Naturally that MB won't be as popular than Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat, for example. But the fact alone that MB are quite popular in circles outside Type-Moon freaks or doujin games lovers indicates that is a great hit (which it is).

What is done is done. Will's first and I have an impression that Bern will be the last. I bet that 07th Expansion are thinking in popularity too.