2012-02-13, 13:09 | Link #27841 | ||
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Genji's 50 year gap is like Yasu's 2 year gap in terms of establishing motive. Yeah, perhaps they could have become people who are cool with murder in all that time, but I didn't actually see it, so I have no reason to believe they are. This is much easier, of course, if neither of them ever planned to murder anyone, as it deftly makes both Yasu and Genji's motives irrelevant (since they had none). Quote:
But yeah, I agree with the sentiment. Kanon was wasted (but still more interesting than a lot of of the younger cast, including and especially Shannon and Jessica), and the kids aren't anywhere near as interesting as the parents. The difference between the parents and the servants is the parents got some real development. I wanted a lot more about Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa. A whole hell of a lot more.
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2012-02-13, 13:35 | Link #27842 |
Endless Sorceror
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
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Genji comes from a long family line of legendary butlers! He even has a cousin named Alfred! His years being a rapscallion in Taiwan were just him trying to find his true calling in life, and live up to his genetic destiny!
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2012-02-13, 16:48 | Link #27843 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-02-13, 19:08 | Link #27844 | |||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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In EP 6 George said about Shannon: Quote:
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From the way I see it, it's possible he was having fantasies on each of those girls, though none of them was that serious. However once he noticed the way Shannon looked at Battler and solely at him not only he realized that wasn't the case but he also figured out how he wanted to be looked. George didn't try immediately to get Shannon's attention but at first he merely tried to change himself by copying Battler until he said he realized his own cowardice and decided to overcome that flaw. Quote:
By then Shannon might have been older. At least that's how I read that scene. I might be wrong thought. Quote:
Of course if in the beginning his feelings were merely 'everyone must like me, you too' and he was irritated when this wasn't true and developed later in 'I want you and only you to be my girfriend' Shannon might have been slightly older. Though I personally think George chose Shannon out of poor motivations. He was jealous of her relation with Battler and she was an easy target as she was a maid and therefore was supposed to be polite with him and was also pretty young and unexperienced. While his feelings might have grown into true love later... well I don't really like his motivations for courting her, especially when it's said he knew Battler liked her as well. It might be just me thought. Quote:
Genji really seems the model servant. Though I agree, it's never clearly stated what was going into Genji's head. Personally I think that for being a work that talks so much about figuring out the motive Umineko seriously lack in describing the feelings of certain characters asking us to merely assume them. For example, prior to 'Our confession' all we knew about Yasuda's feelings for the servants was she was fond of them. It was possible to assume this had changed once she had discovered the truth but... well it wasn't clearly stated. If I'm left to assume things I might say that... Genji was so disgusted by Kinzo's relation with Beato II he wanted him and all his relatives dead so he agreed with Yasuda's plan wholeheartedly. Which is probably not the motive behind his actions but can fit as he disapproved what Kinzo did to Beato and probably didn't like how Krauss was handling things. Quote:
True, they could be meaningless for the plot in the end, but exactly because they aren't explained, not only I can't dismiss them but I might mistakenly use them in making a theory. |
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2012-02-13, 23:16 | Link #27845 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Yeah, I'm thinking that's probably the solution at the moment. Yasu was just writing a story based on her favourite mystery novel and thought that throwing it into the sea in message bottles would be cool and mysterious. The fact that a completely accidental bomb blast blew up the family conference in the same year was a coincidence, but if there's one thing Higurashi taught us it's that Ryukishi's fine with having a plot driven by coincidence.
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2012-02-14, 05:18 | Link #27846 |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I don't think the fictions even have a motive for Yasu, because there is no Yasu in the fictions (only Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon). The real questions are: Why did Yasu write the original two fictions at all? Why did she distribute them the way she did? And what can this tell us about Prime?
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2012-02-14, 08:54 | Link #27847 | ||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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The problem with Jessica, is that even though she gots a lot of screentimes, they're more or less depicted her in very similar light. She's static, from beginning through the end, even more than Geogre. And it isn't that she has no potential. She was at least Yasu's friends since childhood, the girl should know more than that. About the servant problem..well, it is not just the law (even though it is also makes me wondering), but how useful could a 10-12 years old servant could be? Quote:
I think it's also one aspect that makes Shanon-Geogre relationship creepy, or unhealthy. He more or less looked for somebody who would obey him all along...Well, Shanon is also all smilling and shining. It is funny if all the time we feel their relationship "flat", it is implied to be "not so true" in the beginning. Comes to think of it...They went to see the aquarium without no thing happened...But Geogre is so much of a gentleman that he never hugs her? Never sat close to her? He never discovers that her boobs are/might be fake? Or is that man just that inexperience with woman? |
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2012-02-14, 10:13 | Link #27848 | |
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"Hmmm, Genji's brought in a ten-year-old servant girl. Well, I'm sure he has a perfectly good reason for this and it has no suspicious ulterior motives like this person being a secret bastard child of the family or something, no sir. Maybe we'll ask this ten year old girl to make the beds and serve tea and it won't feel the least bit exploitative and creepy." Unless Fukuin servants regularly come in at that age, in which case you question Kinzo's motives.
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2012-02-14, 13:08 | Link #27849 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-02-14, 14:04 | Link #27850 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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And I don't think there's so much wrong with it. Even if you disagree with how he went about it, at least Kinzo himself probably thought he was doing these kids a service; these are orphans we're talking about. |
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2012-02-14, 14:09 | Link #27851 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Though 6 year before he was already 6 and should have known that people on work are often forced to put up a mask... and for example Shannon should have smiled to Natsuhi, Eva or Rosa even if she couldn't stand them and couldn't tell him something rude without risking his workplace. Apart from Shannon insisting on the magic matter we never see the two discussing about something. The fact she's so compliant... well, contrast sharply with all the love stories of the adults. Males and females had their bad points and their disagreements which causes the moments in which they are close to stand out beautifully. With George and Shannon there's no such thing. Quote:
Maybe it's the author's fault but somehow Shannon seemed to lack of the proper emotive reaction. Quote:
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Well, Natsuhi and Krauss found it weird and tried to question people about it, like the Fukuin director but the guy told them to ask Genji, Genji told them to ask Kinzo and the weird thing is that Kinzo didn't find it weird at all so either he knew/hoped Shannon was Lion and that was why Genji hired her or... well, I don't know. I've always found pretty weird how Kinzo said nothing about it when Natsuhi and Krauss pointed it out. Though Natsuhi and Krauss assumed Yasuda had been hired to keep company to Jessica so, although displeased Kinzo didn't ask for their opinion, they accepted the thing. Kinzo might have been told by Genji something else though, for example that Genji was Shannon's secret father. Considering he too had an illegittimate child he might have understood. Still I think this is one of the weakest plot points in Umineko. |
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2012-02-14, 15:44 | Link #27852 | |||
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Before ep 7 I will put it as bad writing, but after ep 7 I think it might be intentional all along, to show how fake the relationship is when Yasu refuses to show her own feeling and just act according to what people expects from her. I remembered somebody in this discussion already said one of my fav remark: "She wants to be loved, but the the tragedy is, she refused to let anybody know her true self." I believe it is intentional, as Ryukishi could and did write convincing relationship, e.g, the adult. (It's funny how Jessica claimed that Kyrie's feeling is not love...considering she is just a teenager with quite a shallow teenager crush...) Quote:
In theme of thematic, it's still fine I guess, but if you really think about it logically, nothing actually makes sense. Quote:
But maybe it's just for fanservice. |
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2012-02-14, 15:59 | Link #27853 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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In one of the last Higurashi's episodes one of the girls tries basically doing everything she could to please her loved one instead than herself, so maybe after her first love went bad she might have tried to become like this in order to make things work. ChickBeato is also pretty compliant, though she also does things on her own... all considered ChickBeato seems more active than Shannon in her love story, even if her goal is to please Battler. Quote:
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Starting from 'oh, the Italians thought to hide so much gold in Japan' and moving to 'KuwadorianBeato doesn't seem to be aware she had a baby' to go with the whole amount of crazy things that are connected with Yasuda and that don't really make sense in real life or seem highly unlikely. George is no breast somelier though. He might not know the difference between real and fake. Or maybe he figured Shannon might wear a padded bra but not how much padding there's in that bra. |
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2012-02-14, 17:08 | Link #27854 | |
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Basically, Shannon and Kanon's stated ages in the stories make more sense as the age you'd expect people to start working there, not when they're 6-10 years old.
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2012-02-14, 17:27 | Link #27855 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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The story does mention that the other servants thought Yasu (10 years old) was useless and that Krauss/Natsuhi thought her main role was to be Jessica's friend.
Even if they had doubts about her being a secret child or something, (... especially Natsuhi...) not much would come out of it because of everything that gets shoved under "wouldn't put it past Kinzo". So the one question is how Genji managed to convince Kinzo. Considering that arc 2 (I think it was?) had a scene showing Kinzo acting very kindly to Kanon and telling him he also needs to try to solve the epitaph or else the magic won't be complete, it seems likely to me he knew all along. Changing the age thing and the overall secretiveness of the whole thing was probably more related to Natsuhi then to Kinzo. But here's another idea : Yasu is not Lion, but a servant raised to be the next Beatrice/heir eventually (isn't there like thousands of references to the epitaph not having to be solved by someone of the Ushiromiya blood? cause Lion's an Ushiromiya). Yasu's age is really 16, she's a 16 years old girl. Eventually Kinzo/Genji told her the story about Lion's fate in order to make it more easy for her to accept her intended role as a new Beatrice/heir. With that came Kanon, Yasu's attempt at being "Lion". Could also say that Kanon might not be real, but through the stories portrays the inner dilemma that Yasu has toward the female servant vs male heir roles thing. Oh and the fake breast thing was George's idea (why not? so much is blamed on him already anyway). |
2012-02-14, 17:57 | Link #27856 |
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Well, I've always teased the notion myself that Yasu has no evidence that she is, in fact, the person she's been told that she is. She can't know it; there is no evidence before her which proves it independent of the claims of others like Genji and Nanjo. While you'd argue that they have no reason to lie to her, on the other hand we have no idea why they have any reason to tell the truth either, or when they would tell her, or why.
So really, how can we know that Yasu and Lion are one and the same person? How do we know there ever actually was a Lion? What if Rosa's story about Beatrice actually contradicts the notion that she could have had a child of that age? But in essence, it doesn't matter, as long as it's what Yasu actually believes is true. And if Kinzo believes it, if that was Genji's intention in creating such a deception. If he has any other motive, we don't know what it possibly could have been.
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2012-02-14, 18:32 | Link #27857 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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But still isn't it cheaper to hire a kid and told her to wear the dress and goes along with his lies for a few moment than messing around with her whole life? And it would be more morally acceptable? It also didn't explain Genji's overal loyalty to Yasu. How about the scene that Bern pulled out of Clair's guts? Basically I guess somebody (Genji or Nanjo) has told her that he/she lost some of his sexual attributes due to the fall. It would be very bad for her if they're lying. I like the ideas myself, though. Comes to think of it...I remember Rosa's testimony also described second Beatrice as blonde. If she's Kinzo's child, she could not possibly has golden hair. So...the first Beatrice is pregnant with somebody not Kinzo. Probably not a Japanese too. That makes the second Beatrice around 22 years old. |
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2012-02-14, 18:40 | Link #27858 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I've been kicking around a forgery idea partially based around this.
Genji was the one got Beatrice-2 pregnant, but he managed to hide that fact for years by convincing Kinzo that he'd done it in an alcohol-induced fugue. His continued loyalty to Kinzo and Yasu is a result of the crushing guilt he feels about how much pain he's caused both of them.
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2012-02-14, 18:51 | Link #27859 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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She, well, Shannon, tells her she's 'special'. While it can work as a way to cheer her up it can also be the wish to be more than what she's supposed to be which is completely understandable considering her condition. So due to her love for mystery books and the environment in which she lives this girl that, when she was 6 was carried on Rokkenjima merely to play with Jessica but was rejected by Natsuhi, made up such a story. Meanwhile Kinzo is about to die and wishes to apologize to Beatrice so Genji had Yasuda pose as Beato to merely let Kinzo die in peace. However in her mind this takes a completely different twist so she sees it as a confirmation she's Lion. This however generates two possibilities: either this was a fantasy of piece-Yasuda who's also capable of murdering people due to Battler not remembering a promise or Prime-Yasuda was severely disconnected from reality. Though I fear that's another of those mysteries we weren't supposed to wonder about... -_- *sigh* Sometimes I think that, if I can't have all the answer I would at least have all the questions at which I was supposed to find an answer... Quote:
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2012-02-15, 03:36 | Link #27860 | ||||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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"Well, that's halfway to being an EVA pilot. Might as well suit her up." Also, I'm almost certain we're told that the Fukuin servants come in as teenagers after having both an exceptional behavioral and academic record. Most of the girls work for one or two years, wherein we're told they're actually paid an absurd amount of money (part of why it's such a big thing in the orphanage to be chosen, I guess), and then leave to start their adult lives with a decent bank account and a nice letter of recommendation from a prominent family. Spoiler for Space:
1. I agree - the adult relationships were often much more tender. 2. Also agree - part of the problem I have with Jessica / George is that they're never allowed to engage in anything OTHER than their respective romances. Jessica, for example, has shown more than once that she's willing to argue with Eva as an equal, she has an interesting love/disdain sisterly relationship with Maria, and despite claiming to not respect her parents, she actually seems more proud of them than not. AND YET, I'M PRETTY SURE KRAUSS AND JESSICA ONLY SHARE, MAYBE, THREE CONVERSATIONS OVER THE COURSE OF THE SERIES. 3. Well, we do have R07 saying in a rather early interview that George and Shannon's love was both genuine and mutual, or something like that. Of course, coming from him, take that as you will. 4. It's not so odd - of all the Shkanon silliness, one thing I will believe without question is that noone noticed Shannon's fake boobs. And then the anime had to go and give her those GIANT, HEAVING, ROCKIN' KNOCKERS. O_o Quote:
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