Dragon Ball Super (Manga)

[SilverGlavenus]

So having a gentle environment and a gentle spirit is better for SSJ transformation. That sounds contradictory af since almost all
SSJ power ups came from rage. And i don't really think Vegeta is gentle, he maybe, but still... Caulifla definitely is not gentle tho. The whole answer to me seems like a cheap way to solve the whole "how can they transform so easily" problem.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Sixth

Toriyama's latest interview.

Now the existence of Super Saiyan Rage Trunks make sense.

Yeah, I saw the posts in the anime thread afterwards. Kinda weird for him to bring up those S-Cells so many years later. It's probably his way of explaining why the U6 saiyans managed to transform so easily, but it actually makes less sense: the perfect conditions were met (high battle power, gentle spirit, gentle environment), yet none of them ever became Super Saiyans before Vegeta taught Cabba how to.

And I guess tingly back will be a thing in the manga too, since Toriyama talks about "a trigger such as anger", implying there are others.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, there are holes in the explanation given. But at least they tried and we have something to go on. It also kind of explains why Goku's and Vegeta's respective children (the males only, so far) are all Super Saiyans. They got it from their dads. We're being told that a Super Saiyan's child is also going to be a Super Saiyan.

As for the Universe 6 Saiyans. I think the fact that they didn't know how to do it until now is a good enough explanation. They were already at the required power level, weren't they?

@Silver Glavenus: "Almost all" isn't he same thing as "all", is it? And I'm pretty sure Goten and Trunks didn't transform from rage, either. They were too young for there to be anything that would make them that angry. I bet they transformed through the "tingly feeling in the back" thing, unless they used one of the other triggers.

But really. What the heck are S-Cells?

[Lord C]

S-Cells actually make a lot of sense. In U7 the only two pure-blooded saiyans to achieve it were Goku and Vegeta, both after living in a pacific environment to get Z-Cells (Vegeta only became a super saiyan after staying some time on Earth) and in addition to that only after having a certain level of power (Goku had 3 million of power level when he became SS while Vegeta trained after that) and both needed a trigger (Krilin's death for Goku and Vegeta's anger at himself).

Universe 6 saiyans are more peaceful, so they will have more S-Cells, but this also means their average power level must be lower by comparison. To begin with, in Universe 7, Vegeta that was an elite had only 18.000, so if the average U6 saiyan has a level lower than that (like 1.200 that was Raditz and he himself was an upper-warrior) then they would never achieve Super Saiyan regardless of a trigger nor S-Cells quantity.

We only have two pure-blooded Super Saiyans in U7: Vegeta and Goku, who are much higher than average. Likewise, we only have three pure-blooded Super Saiyans in U6: Cabba, Caulifla and Kale and while they had all requirements except the trigger achieved until now, it's safe to say the remainder of their race didn't meet the power requirement yet, for they are more peaceful than U7's saiyans.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Lord C

S-Cells actually make a lot of sense. In U7 the only two pure-blooded saiyans to achieve it were Goku and Vegeta, both after living in a pacific environment to get Z-Cells (Vegeta only became a super saiyan after staying some time on Earth) and in addition to that only after having a certain level of power (Goku had 3 million of power level when he became SS while Vegeta trained after that) and both needed a trigger (Krilin's death for Goku and Vegeta's anger at himself).

Other than forcing in the "lived on Earth a while" as part of the equation, literally everything you said was already assumed to be part of the requirements for SSJ. S-Cells have no impact on that at all.

Universe 6 saiyans are more peaceful, so they will have more S-Cells, but this also means their average power level must be lower by comparison. To begin with, in Universe 7, Vegeta that was an elite had only 18.000, so if the average U6 saiyan has a level lower than that (like 1.200 that was Raditz and he himself was an upper-warrior) then they would never achieve Super Saiyan regardless of a trigger nor S-Cells quantity.

Doesn't account for Cabba, Kale, or Caulifla. And nothing says U-6 Saiyans are weaker. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary, considering Frieza purposely eradicated any Saiyan who he felt was getting too strong.

Likewise, we only have three pure-blooded Super Saiyans in U6

Just because they're the only ones we've met doesn't make them the only ones.

it's safe to say the remainder of their race didn't meet the power requirement yet, for they are more peaceful than U7's saiyans.

It's not safe to assume that in the slightest. You can't just say it's safe to assume something as if it's a fact with literally no back up.

[Lord C]

Originally Posted by GDB

In fact, all evidence points to the contrary, considering Frieza purposely eradicated any Saiyan who he felt was getting too strong.

Right back at you: It's not safe to assume that in the slightest. You can't just say it's safe to assume something as if it's a fact with literally no back up.

Nothing points towards U6's average saiyan being stronger either, all the more because they are more peaceful.

Also, Freeza didn't eradicate any saiyan that started going too strong, Zarbon points out he tried eradicating all in one go because their power levels kept growing and because a rebellion of all saiyans combined would be a threat to them. Nothing indicates we ever had a saiyan stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta there, all the more considering Raditz was considered an upper-class warrior.

[DragonOsman]

As far as we know, no one in Universe 6 even knew there was such a thing as a Super Saiyan until Vegeta taught it to Cabba. So it's possible that they have the power-levels necessary, but either just don't know about it/don't know how to do it or haven't gotten all of the requirements yet.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Lord C

Right back at you: It's not safe to assume that in the slightest. You can't just say it's safe to assume something as if it's a fact with literally no back up.

Nothing points towards U6's average saiyan being stronger either, all the more because they are more peaceful.

Telling someone not to assume something is not assuming the opposite. Your statement and counter makes absolutely zero sense.

Also, Freeza didn't eradicate any saiyan that started going too strong, Zarbon points out he tried eradicating all in one go because their power levels kept growing and because a rebellion of all saiyans combined would be a threat to them. Nothing indicates we ever had a saiyan stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta there, all the more considering Raditz was considered an upper-class warrior.

Except that's literally the entire point of the Bardock special. And if I recall, Vegeta's dying monologue on Namek.

Also Raditz was not even close to an upper-class warrior. He was barely better off than a Saibaman that can be easily cultivated.

[Lord C]

Originally Posted by GDB

Telling someone not to assume something is not assuming the opposite. Your statement and counter makes absolutely zero sense.

You say I have no base to assume U6's average saiyans being weaker while I said my reason for that is them being more peaceful, yet you gave no argument for them being stronger in the first place. Why would you assume so when you gave no reason for that? You ''countered'' me without even a proper explanation

Originally Posted by GDB

Except that's literally the entire point of the Bardock special. And if I recall, Vegeta's dying monologue on Namek.

The Bardock special was an anime exclusive and the other special of him ebcoming the legendary Super Saiyan of Legend was basically retonned now with Yamoshi. Also, Vegeta's dying monologue refers to the genocide Freeza commited at once. Here:

Spoiler for Vegeta's dying monologue:

Originally Posted by GDB

Also Raditz was not even close to an upper-class warrior. He was barely better off than a Saibaman that can be easily cultivated.

Raditz was an upper-warrior. Toriyama just said that in the interview. The same one that explained S-Cells.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Lord C

You say I have no base to assume U6's average saiyans being weaker while I said my reason for that is them being more peaceful, yet you gave no argument for them being stronger in the first place. Why would you assume so when you gave no reason for that? You ''countered'' me without even a proper explanation

Once again, it's not an assumption to tell someone not to assume something. Your argument is literally assuming that peace = weak, but then pretend that isn't an assumption. We've not met a single "common" Saiyan of U6, so any statement one way or another about their power in relation to a "common" Saiyan of U7 is an assumption.

That being said, it's not like U6 is super peaceful. Cabba is part of a planetary defense force, after all.

Raditz was an upper-warrior. Toriyama just said that in the interview. The same one that explained S-Cells.

Toriyama has also said he forgot SSJ2 was a thing and forgot Gohan had Unlocked Potential. And you'll have to post where in this interview he said that too, since none of what's been posted here has spoken of Raditz at all.

[Lord C]

Originally Posted by GDB

We've not met a single "common" Saiyan of U6, so any statement one way or another about their power in relation to a "common" Saiyan of U7 is an assumption.

That being said, it's not like U6 is super peaceful. Cabba is part of a planetary defense force, after all.

We can't use Cabba to judge an entire species, just like we can't use Vegeta for all the saiyan race. But you're right on the common saiyans thing. Until we see an average U6 saiyan in combat then everything is just assumption.

Originally Posted by GDB

Toriyama has also said he forgot SSJ2 was a thing and forgot Gohan had Unlocked Potential. And you'll have to post where in this interview he said that too, since none of what's been posted here has spoken of Raditz at all.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/9...994459650?s=17
It was in the anime thread, posted together with the other one regarding Yamoshi and S-Cells. He calls Raditz an upper-level warrior by the second to last line

[Se7enSword]

Originally Posted by Lord C

(Goku had 3 million of power level when he became SS while Vegeta trained after that)

Just want to point that he had 300,000 actually, not 3 million. Super Saiyan was at least a 50x power up, the last recorded was 15 million before all the power level readers blew up.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Se7enSword

Just want to point that he had 300,000 actually, not 3 million. Super Saiyan was at least a 50x power up, the last recorded was 15 million before all the power level readers blew up.

Pretty sure it was 3 millions because of if I not mistaken frieza max power level was 120 millions and ssj Goku was 150 millions.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Oh, so that's where it's from. Thanks, Sixth.

But really, Rage may be similar to LSS, but I don't think it's the same thing. It's still not confirmed what the heck that was.

Doesn't matter whether SSR Trunks is legendary super saiyan or not. My point is having S-cells made the user was able to pull incredible feats regardless how illogical it was.

Krillin and Tien should make a wish from the dragon ball to get S-cell implemented inside their body..

[Tong]

Originally Posted by GDB

Doesn't account for Cabba, Kale, or Caulifla. And nothing says U-6 Saiyans are weaker. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary, considering Frieza purposely eradicated any Saiyan who he felt was getting too strong.

People forget base form Cabba could keep-up with Universal Saga Vegeta, and Caulifla was stronger than him, so that should serve as a testament of how the strongest U6 Saiyans fare.

In the previous pages of this topic we were actually discussing that to achieve SSJ one needed to reach a certain power-level before, then it was just sort of unlocked for them (either from learning from someone or personal experience, but U6 Saiyans have never had one similar to Goku and Vegeta).

[Seafoam]

Originally Posted by SilverGlavenus

So having a gentle environment and a gentle spirit is better for SSJ transformation. That sounds contradictory af since almost all
SSJ power ups came from rage. And i don't really think Vegeta is gentle, he maybe, but still... Caulifla definitely is not gentle tho. The whole answer to me seems like a cheap way to solve the whole "how can they transform so easily" problem.

On the contrary, it seems to make sense. Vegeta only became a super saiyan after he got a bit accustomed to the calm of Earth, as opposed to going around trying to undermine Frieza

[Kanon]

I wish Toriyama had said something about the tails. It's been headcanon for a long time that tails don't grow back if you reach a high power level, and databooks in fact revealed Trunks and Goten were naturally strong because they were born without tails. That would mean all U6 saiyans are naturally very strong, although obviously not on par with Cabba, Caulifa and Kale who seem exceptional. And although their Universe is more peaceful than U7, they're still a race of fighters. And isn't it in fact in huge part thanks to them that their Universe is peaceful?

Originally Posted by Sixth

Pretty sure it was 3 millions because of if I not mistaken frieza max power level was 120 millions and ssj Goku was 150 millions.

You are correct. We know from the manga Frieza's max power was 120 millions, and Goku was able to reach half of that power with KKx20, meaning he was at 3 millions in base. The numbers for Super Saiyan are only revealed in a databook, but it's consistent.

Regarding what you said about Krillin and Tenshinhan, guess what Toriyama said when asked how one can become as strong as a saiyan? Make a wish to become a saiyan/get S-cells using the Dragon Balls (which is what me and others said notYamcha should have done in his spin-off manga)

[DragonOsman]

Where can I read the Dragon Ball databooks? I feel like I'm out of the loop here.

@Lord C: You have to think about what Toriyama meant when he called Radditz an upper-class Saiyan. He could've meant he was an upper-class in relation to the non-Elite. Recall that Vegeta and Nappa were Elites and Vegeta was considered the strongest Saiyan on Planet Vegeta. Radditz himself also admitted in the manga that Vegeta and Nappa are stronger than him when he said as he was dying that two Saiyans even stronger than him were on their way to Earth.

@Sixth: In reply to this:

Originally Posted by Sixth

Doesn't matter whether SSR Trunks is legendary super saiyan or not. My point is having S-cells made the user was able to pull incredible feats regardless how illogical it was.

Okay, I guess you're right.

I just want to say that Yamoshi was the reason why the Super Saiyan legend existed and that he didn't become LSS but normal Super Saiyan and then Super Saiyan God later on. It became a legend because no one after him, until Goku and Vegeta, was able to reach it. Goku's power itself seemed to have told what him what he'd become vs. Frieza, and he said he was "a legendary warrior with a pure heart awoken by rage". In actual canon, the form Kale showed is the true form of a Saiyan. No one ever called it "Legendary Super Saiyan" in actual canon. The regular Super Saiyan and its higher levels are what should be called the legendary Super Saiyan.

As for Bardock. It seems he actually did exist since Vegeta told Goku in the manga that his (Goku's) father was a great scientist and that he developed a way for Saiyans to transform into the Oozaru form without having to wait for the actual moon to become full once a year. And then he showed the artificial moon technique, saying that it was devised by Goku's father. The thing retconned is just the fact that he became the first Super Saiyan, though I don't remember what the Bardock special where he became a Super Saiyan actually said. Did it say he was the first? If it did, then Yamoshi now being said to be the first retcons Bardock becoming a Super Saiyan.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

As for Bardock. It seems he actually did exist since Vegeta told Goku in the manga that his (Goku's) father was a great scientist and that he developed a way for Saiyans to transform into the Oozaru form without having to wait for the actual moon to become full once a year. And then he showed the artificial moon technique, saying that it was devised by Goku's father.

What? That never happened. Goku's father is only mentioned (and seen) once in the manga, when Frieza recalls meeting a saiyan who looked like Goku. I have no idea where you got all this from

As for the databooks, I don't think any were fully translated, but Kanzenshuu is probably your best bet if you want info on them.

[DragonOsman]

Hm, I might me mixing up the anime with the manga. I'll go and check. I think I do remember Vegeta saying that the artificial moon was something Goku's father came up with.

Edit: Okay, yeah, it's not there. It's either an anime-only thing or it's somewhere else other than the part where Vegeta used the artificial moon.

[Ramero]

First time i saw it is Master Roshi did have some technique where he use Krilin as an object to make a moon illusion towards a werewolf on Budokai. I think that Bardock is on different scale is it?