[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Apathy]

Spoiler for episodes 3 and 4:

So no-one apart from Meta Battler has been shown to have 'proper' powers. ... Although I guess even Battler doesn't display any powers in the 'actual' world...?

Come to think, though, there was something at one point about Shannon, Kanon and Gouda (or Genji... I get those two mixed up a lot) having some sort of power because of their link to the family, but I might be getting confused there. =/

I find it rather odd that the Siestas appeared in episode 3 when they might be based off Maria's toys, too; I thought that the Siestas were primarily Eva's servants...?

Also, going back to episode 3, when Eva became Eva-Beatrice, did she also gain control over the Stakes with her new title?

Sorry for asking so much.

[kj1980]

Considering that we now know more about the characters in Umineko by EP4, shall we go and create a character discussion thread which can serve as a base to carry out an all-inclusive Umineko discussion rather than limited to each episode?

[ClockWorkAngel]

Probably discussion for some key members, but more than likely a broad one.

I wish we had a subforum, would be much easier.

[Ithekro]

Since there is An anime coming....that would be when Uminko gets a major subforum. Right now without one things are spread out between places, but is gathering up about as many threads as Higurashi (minus all the episode polls/debate threads).

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Apathy

Spoiler for episodes 3 and 4:

So no-one apart from Meta Battler has been shown to have 'proper' powers. ... Although I guess even Battler doesn't display any powers in the 'actual' world...?

Come to think, though, there was something at one point about Shannon, Kanon and Gouda (or Genji... I get those two mixed up a lot) having some sort of power because of their link to the family, but I might be getting confused there. =/

I find it rather odd that the Siestas appeared in episode 3 when they might be based off Maria's toys, too; I thought that the Siestas were primarily Eva's servants...?

Also, going back to episode 3, when Eva became Eva-Beatrice, did she also gain control over the Stakes with her new title?

Sorry for asking so much.

Spoiler for Eva and Siesta Sisters + ep4:

Eva-Beatrice basically has all the power that Beatrice has, and the Siesta Sisters are summonable by Beatrice; it's not odd to see them in ep3. Also, ep3 revealed that they are harder to summon than the 7 sisters, and thus Beatrice can't easily summon them out.

Perhaps they were made by Maria, and Beatrice, being in the Mariage Sorciere, was able to share the usage (kinda like how Ange was able summon the 7 sisters). Goldsmith is just too good of a summoner and probably can just summon the Siesta Sisters anyway.

[Apathy]

Ah, I get it now. Thanks~

Although,

Spoiler for name, etc.:

Goldsmith?

Also, as Sakutarou has been acknowledged to be part of the Mariage Solciel, does that make him a 'summonable' being as well, or is he simply Maria's familiar...?

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Apathy

Spoiler for name, etc.:

Goldsmith?

Spoiler for :

That's Kinzo's "witch" name

[Apathy]

Ah. .___.

So,

Spoiler for Kinzo:

Kinzo was a pretty powerful warlock after all? I guess if his blood grants magical powers to his descendants (at least in the meta world), it must be. Still, I never expected him to have his own name or the like... ehe.

[Von Himmel]

Hm. .

Spoiler:

2. Kinzo's already dead when Battler/Beato's game started.

Can someone explain this ? Does it means, when the ceremony began, Kinzo's already dead ? Or is it something else ?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by yangxu

I don't really trust her monologue, after all, the entire purpose of her soliloquy was to reflect her jealousy and grudge on Asumu as far as I recall. She didn't go into too much detail regarding her miscarriage, I think there's much more to what Kyrie said in Ep. 3.

Indeed, there isn't anything that force us to take all monologue as face value. However, the thing is that considering the context (her own thoughts without any attempt to explain to anyone, Leviathan included), it would be kinda plointless to add such detail if it is something totally crafted by the witch side. Well, of course, there are much more information to get from Kyrie, but heh.

Originally Posted by kj1980

Considering that we now know more about the characters in Umineko by EP4, shall we go and create a character discussion thread which can serve as a base to carry out an all-inclusive Umineko discussion rather than limited to each episode?

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Since there is An anime coming....that would be when Uminko gets a major subforum. Right now without one things are spread out between places, but is gathering up about as many threads as Higurashi (minus all the episode polls/debate threads).

I will agree with Ithekro: it isn't the best timing to create such threads, especially with the lack of a proper common environment. Therefore, it will clutter a lot the games sub forum (which is already the case with the current threads).

Originally Posted by Apathy

Ah, I get it now. Thanks~

Although,

Spoiler for name, etc.:

Goldsmith?

Also, as Sakutarou has been acknowledged to be part of the Mariage Solciel, does that make him a 'summonable' being as well, or is he simply Maria's familiar...?

Spoiler for about Maria's stuffed animal:

Sakutarou is considered as Maria's familiar. No one except Maria (or, at some extent, Rosa) can affect Sakutarou.

Originally Posted by Flyvedelta

Hm. .

Spoiler:

2. Kinzo's already dead when Battler/Beato's game started.

Can someone explain this ? Does it means, when the ceremony began, Kinzo's already dead ? Or is it something else ?

This is explained in the beginning of episode 4 and confirmed in the tea party

Spoiler for End spoiler of Episode 4, MAJOR:

It is revealed that Ushiromiya Kinzo is indeed dead by the time that Battler and Beatrice start their game.
Since Beato confirmed that Kinzo's life and death situation is the same for all games, it is very likely that Kinzo is dead at the start of any episode.

This is actually explaining why the culprit always burn to death Kinzo's body, in order to cover his early death.
The problem now is... that fact shatters a lot of theories

Since my summaries take too much time, I assume people would like a quick draft of the "dead" in episode 4, so here is a quick summary of the "ceremony" in episode 4.

Spoiler for Episode 4, order of the massacre and some details:

• The first Twilight: The first 6
  Victims: Natsuhi, Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Eva, Genji and Rosa
  
  Situation: Krauss and Natsuhi managed to convince Kinzo to show himself in front of the siblings.
  As he did, around 10PM, he is however babbling like a madman that none of them is worthy to succeed the Ushiromiya name, so not only Krauss won't have the inheritance, but so won't Eva, Rudolf and Rosa. Somehow, Nanjo thinks it might result into regrets and suggests that the grandchildren might do.
  Kinzo is fine and will prepare a test for them, but suddenly starts the roulette and summons (yes, he DOES it himself) the siestas (here comes 00), Ronove, Gaap and even Virgilia. He tells the siestas that they can choose whichever they want for the first twilight.
  Natsuhi is killed right from the start and a huge panic ensues (except Genji, Kanon and Shannon), which is followed by Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Eva and Genji's death. Krauss is again grabbed by the neck and orders everyone to flee. Rosa tries to stop Kinzo's madness, but 00 stops her and kills her instantly.
  As they killed 6 people, Gaap abduct the rest of the survivors by casting some hole in the ground, but Gohda and Kumasawa manage to run away. The rest (Krauss, Kyrie, Nanjo, Kanon and Shannon) wake up in a weird jail cell at 10:30PM.

• Second Twilight
  Victims: George and Jessica
  
  Situation: Kinzo force the cousins to prepare themselves for a test if they are suitable for the Ushiromiya name. Battler and Maria must wait in the guesthouse for their turn. Jessica has to go to wait in her own room, while George must wait in the arbor of the rose garden. Jessica is then confronted by Ronove, while George is confronted by Gaap. After the test (I will explain the summaries later on), both Jessica and George fight their respective demonic foe. It is shown that George has a surprising martial arts mastery (thanks to Eva) along with an oustanding counteroffensive barrier mastery, while Jessica knows how to brawl with her brass knuckles along with a self enchant power up.
  After an epic battle, both die.

• Fourth Twilight
  Victim: Kanon
  
  Situation: the survivors managed to get free of their jail cell, and in the subway, manage to get back outside through the well. However, the siesta ambushed them and Kanon got terminated badly with a missile warhead on the chest.

• Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth Twilight
  Victims: Shannon, Nanjo, Krauss and Kyrie
  
  Situation: right after Kanon's death, Shannon is killed right away by the Siestas. Same goes to Nanjo and Krauss.
  Kyrie manage desperately shelter herself in the mansion, but she perfectly knows it is useless and she will die (she has a very panicked tati e for this episode). Even so, she manages to call Battler (the telephone DOES work in this episode) and manages to tell everything she saw to Battler, even if the latter wants to save her. Kyrie manages to dodge Siestas' arrow while talking, but ultimately, she is killed.

• Ninth Twilight
  Victims: Gohda, Kumasawa, Kinzo
  
  Situation: because Kinzo didn't want any interference, he first ordered the cousins to cast away Gohda and Kumasawa beforehand. Without any choice, Battler, George and Jessica lead Gohda and Kumasawa in the storehouse of the rose garden. In order to assure their safety, Battler decides to give them the only key of the storehouse after they close it (I assumed there is enough space to let the key pass through). Even if they can't open the storagehouse from inside, it isn't possible to open the storehouse from the outside without the key but...
  When Battler leaves the guesthouse after Kyrie's and ********'s call, he checks the storagehouse, but none of Gohda and Kumasawa show any life sign.
  
  Meanwhile, Kinzo is celebrating his victory, but due to some circumstances, Beatrice comes back in a very very bad mood. Kinzo being unaware of that is overly joyful which costs him dearly: he got burned to death.

• Tenth Twilight
  Maria disappears first and is later found dead by Battler. Battler is the sole survivor and is reported missing. However, it is revealed in the tea party that he has been killed... but by who/what?

When Battler became the sole survivor, he had to confront Beatrice (not Meta Beato) at midnight (yes, EVERYONE got killed during the FIRST day!). After his test, Battler was left with 24 hours, and he took this opportunity to find everyone corpse.

After he checked Gohda and Kumasawa status, he found George dead in the arbor, with a gun wound (?) in the head.
Way later, he tries to get in the chapel, but it is locked. Then, once in the dining room, he found the corpses of the victims of the first twilight, along with Maria. She is dead, but there is absolutely no mark whatsoever and is "sleeping" next to Rosa.
The 6 first got their heard half smashed (like Krauss and Shannon in episode 1).
He then finds Jessica's corpse in her own room, and just like the first 6, the side of her head is badly damaged. Her room was closed
Then, he finds Kyrie in a old guestroom, which was also locked. This time, Kyrie has a gun wound in the forehead.
Krauss' corpse is found as well in another room, the face half smashed.

Battler decides to get outside and finds Shannon's corpse (I can't remember exactly where he found her). Her face is half crushed.
Battler remembers of what Kyrie told him about Kanon and he is trying to open the lid of the well, but it is impossible, too hard and heavy.

Battler then goes to the storehouse but needs a tool to open the shutter as the key is still inside. As he goes to the boiler room, he finds Kinzo's burned corpse.
Back to the storehouse, he finds Gohda and Kumasawa, hanged with a gun wound on their forehead.

In the end, he is unable to find kanon's corpse despite he is looking for the whole day (and trying to break through the well is impossible for him). That said, Beato confirms he is dead (like in ep2) and was the first to die among Kyrie's group, hence he is the ninth victim. Note that the tati shows his corpse in a gruesome shape (he has literally a gigantic hole in the chest).

At midnight, Battler faces off Beatrice, then Meta Battler and Beato go all full force!

I will still write some summaries, but as I said, I believe most people would prefer to see an overview of the murders this time around.

[Ithekro]

Why is there no third twilight?

[Kets]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Why is there no third twilight?

Because the third twilight in the epigraph is the part where it says "Praise My Name".

[Licky]

a question

Spoiler for for ange:

curious about one of the spoilers from 4chan
Did Ange really die in the Meta world and if yes, how?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Licky

a question

Spoiler for for ange:

curious about one of the spoilers from 4chan
Did Ange really die in the Meta world and if yes, how?

That is tricky to explain, but let's see

Spoiler for End of Episode 4, concerning Ange:

Yes, Meta Ange (Gretel) literally exploded into pieces of meat.
That happened because Ange revealed her true identity in red to Battler (who still couldn't believe she is prior this point, due to the age gap), in order to confirm his own identity (this happens after Beato states that Battler wasn't Asumu's son), and to wake him up from his depression.

I'm still unsure of the reason why she died because of this, but she says she was a "sacrifice" in chess term, which will allow Battler to move on against Beato (which worked, as he turned completely serious and enraged).
It seems it was a rule she wasn't allowed to break in order to join the party (dunno if it is Beato's doing or so), but she sacrificed herself willingly. We can assume that Beato did the "you are not Ushiromiya Battler born from Asumu" on purpose in order to force Ange to sacrifice herself to help Battler.

It is however not mentioned if it will affect Ange of 1998, nor does it mean Meta Ange is dead for good. After all, her bios/meta tips is NOT changed at all (while Sakutarou got a "execute").

I think Rias might have a better explanation than mine.

[Ankoku-chan]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Note that the tati shows his corpse in a gruesome shape (he has literally a gigantic hole in the chest).

Ew, what does that look like? o_O

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Ankoku-chan

Ew, what does that look like? o_O

Well, here is a screencap of the tips. I really don't want to imagine how it would look like if they show that in the anime.

Spoiler for episode 4, corpse:

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Well, here is a screencap of the tips. I really don't want to imagine how it would look like if they show that in the anime.

Spoiler for episode 4, corpse:

There are a lot of scenes (compared to Higurashi) that I have no idea how they are going show in the anime.
Like the "Dinner Party" in episode 2 or the red and blue text.

[k//eternal]

I imagine red/blue text in the anime will be shown scrolling in the background as the characters speak, or the screen would go blank and just have the text on it (think Evangelion, among others).

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That is tricky to explain, but let's see

Spoiler for End of Episode 4, concerning Ange:

Yes, Meta Ange (Gretel) literally exploded into pieces of meat.
That happened because Ange revealed her true identity in red to Battler (who still couldn't believe she is prior this point, due to the age gap), in order to confirm his own identity (this happens after Beato states that Battler wasn't Asumu's son), and to wake him up from his depression.

I'm still unsure of the reason why she died because of this, but she says she was a "sacrifice" in chess term, which will allow Battler to move on against Beato (which worked, as he turned completely serious and enraged).
It seems it was a rule she wasn't allowed to break in order to join the party (dunno if it is Beato's doing or so), but she sacrificed herself willingly. We can assume that Beato did the "you are not Ushiromiya Battler born from Asumu" on purpose in order to force Ange to sacrifice herself to help Battler.

It is however not mentioned if it will affect Ange of 1998, nor does it mean Meta Ange is dead for good. After all, her bios/meta tips is NOT changed at all (while Sakutarou got a "execute").

I think Rias might have a better explanation than mine.

I don't think I can explain it better than you do, as you already explained most of the stuff Only points, or speculations I want to add was,

Spoiler for 1998 Ange and Gretel in ep4:

As Klashikari stated, Ange broke the rule that she was not supposed to let Battler know about her identity. Right now, I'm not sure the reason behind that, but LD seems to know and tried to stop her. Perhaps it has something to with the fact that Gretel doesn't exist in the world that Battler would win, or something to do with the fact that she's merely a gamepiece and shouldn't be able to be in meta-world? Furthurmore, "dying" in meta world doesn't seem to be anything serious...just look at when Beatrice were torturing people in ep1-2's tea party.

Actually, during that scene, it gave me the impression that Ange actually died in real life (and thus reflected in the meta world) Of course, it's not known if one is related to another, but the end credits does indeed list her as dead. Again, nothing from the TIPS

Ange is the key to quite a few unsolved mysteries in ep4...both in the meta world and in 1998.


@Sterling01: Why do I have the feeling that they are just going to leave them out...kinda like the text in Matsuribayashi-hen for Higurashi.

[Ankoku-chan]

Originally Posted by Rias

I don't think I can explain it better than you do, as you already explained most of the stuff Only points, or speculations I want to add was,

Spoiler for 1998 Ange and Gretel in ep4:

As Klashikari stated, Ange broke the rule that she was not supposed to let Battler know about her identity. Right now, I'm not sure the reason behind that, but LD seems to know and tried to stop her. Perhaps it has something to with the fact that Gretel doesn't exist in the world that Battler would win, or something to do with the fact that she's merely a gamepiece and shouldn't be able to be in meta-world? Furthurmore, "dying" in meta world doesn't seem to be anything serious...just look at when Beatrice were torturing people in ep1-2's tea party.

Actually, during that scene, it gave me the impression that Ange actually died in real life (and thus reflected in the meta world) Of course, it's not known if one is related to another, but the end credits does indeed list her as dead. Again, nothing from the TIPS

Ange is the key to quite a few unsolved mysteries in ep4...both in the meta world and in 1998.


@Sterling01: Why do I have the feeling that they are just going to leave them out...kinda like the text in Matsuribayashi-hen for Higurashi.

There was text in Matsuribayashi-hen? XD