2012-04-20, 04:21 | Link #28502 |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Well, I wonder about that...I wouldn't call it cheating, rather, it'd be more accurate to call it a nasty trick, which was the whole point of Umineko as a mystery. For example, if you figure out Shkannon, then all the pieces for most closed rooms start falling into place, and it becomes clear 'Oooh, so that's what all this mumbo-jumbo about life and death and revive endlessly etcetera was all about...'
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2012-04-20, 04:51 | Link #28503 | |||||
The True Culprit
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Both of which are illegal. Quote:
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To use a very extreme example, if I have a character say that black people should've accepted being slaves, and then never correct the character or reprimand their behavior, then as an author I am validating their viewpoint by not countering it. If an apologist says "You have to understand that it's the CHARACTER who's racist", that doesn't matter. I wrote them that way and the character's racist views were glorified by his own narration but never challenged by any other force in the story. My novel would be advocating slavery. Quote:
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To continue the chess analogy, if you tried to, say, move your knight in a way which checks my king but is an illegal move, and I call you out on it as an illegal move and explain how the knight really does move... And then you realized that I did almost the exact same thing earlier and took advantage of your ignorance... Then I'm in the wrong. The personality death thing is the worst kind of plot twist because Ryukishi tried so much to protect it to the detriment of his novel; people guessed it early on so he had to keep doing bullshit stunts to maintain the mystery and preserve the sensationalism that if you go back and look closely at what he did, he ended up fucking up some of the mysteries with plot holes and technical contradictions that ruins Umineko as a finished product, practically assuring that over the test of time it will be forgotten as a mediocre piece of work. The worst part of it is that he could've fixed all of this so easily, with only the slightest of semantic changes. Shannon and Kanon no longer exist or I can revive furniture with my magic or fucking something. And there's really no point trying to justify it because we know for a fact he's messed up before. He's forgotten ENTIRE DOORS in closed room mysteries.
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2012-04-20, 07:45 | Link #28504 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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In EP1, Kanon's death makes anything, that is not ShKanon(Trice), very unlikely.
After all: All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide Kanon did not die in an accident! So without Shkanon(Trice), the only other solution is that Kanon died by an illness or some other kind of natural death. I could understand this possibility for Jessica, because of her Asthma, but for Kanon there were no signs of any strange illnesses. Although... to be fair It was never said that Kanon was dead to begin with. So maybe this part would still be possible in some way... but as AT said, the EP6 solution would have to be VERY twisted, to work without ShKanon(Trice) |
2012-04-20, 13:20 | Link #28505 | |||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Re: ShKanontrice and red death, I think that there is some kind of "Yasu" who dominates over all personas, but this "Yasu" has no identity and in that sense is not really a person. The result is that whoever is "real"/"exists"/"a person" is whichever "Yasu" persona interacts with the outside world. The other personas continue to exist as fantasy (but not "exist" for the red, since they are, after all, fantasy), which explains why they talk to each other. Essentially, they are all each other's "invisible friends".
This is, of course, quite similar to what Kylon99 and others are saying, as well. Quote:
As for Kanon and Shannon's revival in EP3, earlier in that episode we saw how finite magic made a vase appear not to be destroyed even when it was (but ultimately the result could not be changed). So it's not like there isn't a hint that even if Kanon and Shannon appear alive that they aren't. Zombie Kanon in EP2 is a hint for this, too. So yeah, not sure that a dead personality can actually revive. Quote:
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2012-04-20, 13:30 | Link #28506 | ||
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"Dead" means a particular thing, unless we have been conditioned to believe that a different meaning applies. It is not a "clever trick" to use a word that differs from the ordinary meaning of the word. Semantics are important because red text made them important. No matter what status you use, it has to be clear that its application has a certain meaning. That's an egregious sin unto itself, but Ryukishi does himself one worse by using "dead" in a singular statement to refer to five individuals, three of whom use an entirely different definition of "dead" from the special one he intended. Do you suppose, hmmm, just maybe, that this was intentional in order to confuse someone who assumes - as all rational normal people do - that when a person uses a single term to describe a set, the same meaning applies to all of the entries in that set? Because under normal circumstances, doing otherwise is a mark that the writer is insane. It's excessive syllepsis. "The lightbulb and my grandmother are dead." It's only cute when it's a poetic turn of phrase. It doesn't belong in technical language. Although now I have an idea for a forgery character who composes poetry entirely in red text. Example of the problem: The door is the only way to get in and out of the room. The door is locked. The door was locked from the time before the victim was murdered up until he was discovered. During that time, the door remained absolutely locked, with no exceptions! Incidentally, and unknown to you as the reader, I have chosen to define the word "locked" to mean "made out of wood." But only for this door. If I say a different door was "locked," I actually mean it was locked, not made of wood. The solution to this murder is that the killer opened the door, killed the victim, and left through the door, which remained made of wood the whole time. There is nothing even remotely honest about this. But okay, let's say Ryukishi acknowledges that. He changes the ep3 First Twilight red to "no longer exist." Even so, we now have the problem that the special rule used to exempt Shannon and Kanon from permanent death applies to everyone else equally. We can posit that, somehow, Genji remains alive. This is an inescapable problem that arises from trying to be too clever. "Dead" doesn't mean "dead" in one instance, therefore we cannot know with any degree of certainty that it doesn't mean that in every instance. Ergo, nobody ever biologically dies. How can I possibly assume otherwise? Quote:
Had every implementation been this carefully fact-checked, it'd actually function as a concept. It'd just be stupid, which it still is, just stupid and not also broken.
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2012-04-20, 13:58 | Link #28507 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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The thing is, that in the forgery, "dreams become reality". This means Yasuda's "fake murders" become "real murders" in the forgery.
The metaphor becomes reality on the gameboard, just as you become "real heroes", when playing pen&paper RPGs... oh wait... pen&paper RPGs got a "gamemaster" too, what a concidence... but even then you are still humans at some bigger table. (Beato's Meta room and the witches' Battlehall or however they are called) The only problem is, that Battler figures out way too late that it is really just a game... And to expand on that, Umineko is like a TV series, that is about 2 authors, who write: 1) (About some teenagers, who play pen&paper mystery RPGs,) about a rich family that got trapped on an island in a storm. 2) Fictional stories about a "real" girl, that was reported missing. And at the end the authors meet that girl the end. |
2012-04-20, 14:35 | Link #28509 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Is it the problem is that there are still people trying to force through the interpretation that she's innocent somehow? And then they think THAT's what Ryukishi is saying? That ends up putting words in Ryukishi's mouth. Oh, I've provided all the answers I found in EP1-2 now by the way in the big post up there. There were so many quotes it's clearly not arguable that he didn't write out the whole scenario for us to understand. Even if we couldn't understand on the first read through, we could on a second. But, I'm not sure what you're getting at though, are you saying Ryukishi advocated something very evil, such as getting away with murder? Or are you saying he allowed Beatrice to get away with using a cheat-level definition of death? To that I would agree on though, though I'm not sure that it's a cheat to the detective stuff itself. In a regular mystery genre, it's fair game, I would say, since so many hints were provided. Such as? The only recent example being discussed was Kanon stalking around at the end of EP3. Which he very well could be. The thing is, are we saying that the red won't hold? I think some of us here are saying that yes, the red won't hold to the detective mysteries. I'm starting to think the red text is purely from Beatrice's point of view. It's 'her' truth, so she tries to get away with it. I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong though. I'm trying to figure out her rules as Bernkastel told us to do. Quote:
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If you want to talk about what 'dead' means to everyone else go ahead, but then we're discussing different things. I agree with you what 'dead' means to all of us because hey, I don't have issues with my brain. 8) But that's not my point that I'm trying to raise... what is dead to 'Beatrice?' I think we can get a lot of ideas and meaning through thinking about the way she thinks. Sure. I can agree that Umineko doesn't feel honest, because at the end we need to look at Umineko as a whole package. And when we do, I think you need to move on from "this is cheating," to a, "Ryukishi set up some pretty strange circumstances for a character and used it to play with the red text, thereby misleading us." So, I'm trying to ask you or anyone else, do you understand that Beatrice is not simply delusional or insane? If you understand this point, of which seems to be the answer that he's not providing, then you can undo the actual Who is Beatrice mystery, which doesn't seem to be a detective mystery at all but a regular mystery genre mystery. (Since detective mysteries require dead bodies, but figuring out who and what she is, and also how she thinks, isn't about murders. The murders are incidental.) Quote:
Virgilia made a big deal about Beatrice not being mature enough to use Endless magic. I thought this was Tooya who was admonishing Beatrice for being too flippant about wanting to kill people for her plan, even though she may not have been. (This is early on in Tooya's thoughts and idea, after all.) Since this takes place after Ep2, I thought that Tooya wouldn't have talked about 'Endless magic' this way, but it seems to me Endless magic is his portrayal of her when she was still naive. There seems to be an arc for Shannon and Kanon's characters where they come to know love, become human and then become *very* hard to die/kill, due to their regrets. So this 'Endless' idea feels to me to be the point before that when Beatrice thought she could spin any number of personalities and do away with them at will, since they mattered to no one but herself. That's what I was thinking. Did anyone have any other conclusions? |
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2012-04-20, 15:10 | Link #28510 | ||||||||
The True Culprit
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Beatrice isn't some insane schizophrenic who doesn't understand that other people don't have the same definitions of words as she does, and she rationally understands that Battler has missed out on a huge chunk of her life. She WANTS him to see through her deceptions, so why is she doing her damndest to protect this huge obstacle that gives her no benefit? By all means, yes, present a difficult puzzle to Battler and make him struggle to overcome it. I understand that part, but don't give him a rubix cube with some of the stickers switched and get pissed off when he can't solve it. Quote:
This is like a religious debate where a religious person accuses the atheist of HATING GOD, and when the atheist responds that she merely doesn't believe in him, the theist responds that everyone believes in God, atheists just refuse to admit it because they don't want to be held accountable for your actions. Beatrice, when it comes to this 'personality death' thing, is basically the theist, because she refuses to use the same basic, argument-defining terms as her opponent out of stubbornness and deceit. Except unlike the theist she doesn't even believe the bullshit she's asking you to swallow. She's worse, because she rationally and emotionally knows that she is lying through her teeth. Fuck that and fuck Ryukishi. Even when she was portrayed as an outright villain, Beatrice was portrayed as being honorable and fair for the sake of a fun game. Quote:
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2012-04-20, 15:32 | Link #28511 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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If we go back to the vase example, it was "not broken" until observed. This is why it's "finite" magic, since the result was verified (even if the process was unknown). However, with the Rokkenjima tragedy, peoples' life and death status remains unverified, in an "infinite" or "endless" cat box. wait what? |
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2012-04-20, 16:11 | Link #28512 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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As for suicides,... I'm pretty certain Shannon shot herself in the head in EP2. But, that's beside the point you were making I think. From my re-play through of EP1 and EP2, I'm getting the feeling that when Beatrice decides the future for a personality is cut off, that personality is dead. So, the conditions for when Shannon and Kanon's future is cut off either the end of the epitaph ceremony, where they are freed, or they are killed as one of the sacrifices. Shannon thought she had a possible future with George but then she realized that it wouldn't work out. Beatrice's termination of her future seems to only be if someone solves the epitaph. She does her job in giving up the gold, the headship rings and probably the guns. Then she ceases to be. I don't think Beatrice is a candidate for any murder though, so it's really just Shannon and Kanon we're talking about. So basically, when a personality's future is dead, they are dead to her. And that's her definition. Is this a crappy definition? Yes. But I'm trying to understand what's going on here and not throw up my hands and say that everything's useless just because it feels like cheating. It's like the discussion about lying we had awhile ago. Figuring out why someone is lying can be just as interesting. Well, why is someone cheating? It usually involves some sort of inadequacy, maybe? At this point, I'm saying that Ryukishi had Beatrice be very coy with her problem to the level of cheating for a reason. What is that reason? Is it just because she didn't want to tell, but wanted someone to figure it out? I don't know yet for sure. Quote:
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It feels like he provided a path to the solution not through detective mystery means, but through understanding motive of the culprit first. I remember some people on here speculating that this was the intent, that detective novels usually lack a worthy motive. (Not that I'm saying whether this is worthy or not.) Anyways, if someone can find it, I'd like to see that document that analyses all the twilights. Quote:
Beatrice's character arc is distributed in random order throughout the episodes and that makes it very hard to follow. 8) Quote:
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Just because someone wants to argue against with you... and in my case, I am agreeing on some things and also asking for more ideas, do not label us as "Ryukishi Apologist Zealots!LOL!" Might as well call me a, ' dirty socialist' as some people from not my country are apt to do these days... |
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2012-04-20, 16:21 | Link #28513 | ||
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Moreover, Beatrice herself is being intellectually dishonest by equivocating the physical death states of Genji/Kumasawa/Gohda with the temporary fictional death states of Kanon/Shannon... unless she's asserting that all five are in fictional death states, in which case there is no point in ever believing a single true biological murder ever occurred at any point in ep1-4 because we have no such assurances and indeed, by your argument as to her use of terminology, actually should believe exactly the opposite. You're trying to have it both ways. If Beatrice's definition of "dead" consistently doesn't mean actual physical death, then she will not refer to actual physical death and "her" definition of death as though the two are identical. If she does, she's being knowingly dishonest and attempting to mislead Battler. And if she actually knows there is a difference... and I think she does... then she knows what she's saying is deliberately confusing. So either she believes there is no contradiction or difference and is insane (which I do not believe), or she knows there is a difference and chooses to equivocate two entirely distinct states and is a liar. In any event, she's sane enough (meta-Beato is anyway) to know that Battler does not share this meaning. Therefore, she's misleading him on purpose. You can't escape this. You're flat-out incorrect. Quote:
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2012-04-20, 16:41 | Link #28514 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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However, it was clearly stated that the reader should not surrender to the witch, I think that concept was made clear enough. The fact that the 'fictional' deaths were put in the same category as the 'actual' ones does not mean it was impossible to figure them out, and after all, distinguishing them would actually give it away immediately. Quote:
Even though Battler does not share the meaning of the 'deaths' Beatrice is showing, he was given hints towards figuring that meaning. There were many scenes that were seemingly unrelated to the mysteries, but tried to point towards certain directions concerning them.
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2012-04-20, 17:01 | Link #28515 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I honestly don't think this is very complicated.
Rules of game boards generally: Anyone can create furniture on their own game board. Within the bounds of the game board, the creator's furniture properly exist as legitimate beings according to the creator's specifications. Furniture is alive so long as their creator maintains them. As such, they can be killed in the following ways: - Their creator dies. - Their creator decides to stop maintaining them. - A condition the creator established for their existence is violated, such as the destruction of a vessel. Furniture can be revived if a condition that killed them is removed. All other aspects of furniture, such as being "human" or not, are subject to the creator's original definition. All of these things were explained quite openly during Ange's and Maria's subplots in EP4. Rules of Yasu's game board specifically: A solution to the presented serial murders must exist that relies only on human pieces. Clues must be presented to establish the human-only solution. The game board must conform to red truths given about it. Shannon and Kanon are furniture. They count as humans. Their vessel is ???'s body. Beatrice is furniture. She counts as a witch. Her vessel is ???'s body. Any nonhuman pieces may be added, but may not participate in the human-only solution. Literally every single thing on this list was stated outright in EP1-4 other than the identity of "???". Regarding the confusion of the person counts, in EP3 we learned that:
Then in EP4, we get the explanation of what "furniture" are, the furniture Shannon and Kanon declare that they are "human", and we learn that the furniture Sakutarou can "die". Combined with Kanon's vanishing corpse and the knowledge that Battler is viewing a game board, this should be enough to propose the existence of Creator X who maintains the furniture Shannon and Kanon. Furthermore, even if Shannon and Kanon are revived after death in EP3, which is not necessary, this has no material effect on reasoning at all. That's because there exists a point in time at which both of them are dead and furniture can only be revived so long as their creator lives. What about Genji and Ronove? Well, Ronove is a demon and therefore has no relation to the game according to EP3, and he wasn't introduced in the first episode anyway, but let's take a look. In EP2 and EP4, it doesn't matter because there is no relevant red truth and Genji can do anything Ronove could. In EP1, Ronove isn't covered by the red truth that Genji isn't a murderer, but Natsuhi is killed after they both get their faces shot off, so he can't be the culprit anyway. Having eliminated Ronove as the culprit, it doesn't really matter what he's doing in EP3 because we already know there's some other furniture running around doing the actual killing. So as far as I can see, no, there isn't any cheating. Meta-Beatrice properly explained every single one of her game board's rules.
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2012-04-20, 17:57 | Link #28517 | |||||||
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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The only thing is, I have given proof that despite not wanting to be explicitly honest with Battler, she has still presented enough clues to let Battle figure things out, assuming he was paying attention enough. Can you somehow go against this, to say that maybe all the quotes I listed above are somehow imaginary? Quote:
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But even if she doesn't, I have no problem saying that she is equivocating two different states. It doesn't follow that she is a liar if one of the states is her personal, private opinion of how she can die. Quote:
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And don't say that there isn't anything further to read, as my mega post proved that there was definitely much, much, much more to read. And don't say that it isn't worth our time. Despite my suspicions that Ryukishi was being purposely deceptive about Beatrice's red text, I am still entertained by what else he may be saying in the novel. By the way, when I say agree with you, Renall, or AuraTwilight, or anyone else on the deceptiveness Ryukishi employed, I agree in principle. However, you won't see from me the invectiveness that has been employed on this board that I've seen. I will not join in on the 'hate fest.' If you want me to agree that not just Beatrice, but Ryukishi himself has been deceptive, no problem. If you want me to share in the outrage, no, go hire your own wailing congregation. However, you have been fairly warned by Beatrice herself: Spoiler for Beatrice must follow some rules because of magic. However she does play tricks and she does deceive people.:
In case we don't believe Beatrice, take it from Bernkastel, who we know always tells the truth to maximum cruelty: Spoiler for EP2 Beato's game is unfair and disgusting.:
Bernkastel told us in EP1 that we needed to learn the rules of the game. Not figure out who the culprit is: Spoiler for EP1 To defeat Beatrice, you must expose the rules of the world and unravel them.:
It is this exploration of the rules which I believe still may hold our interests, despite now knowing both the question and the answer. Like know both a math theorm and know its proof is 100% accurate, finding out the actual steps to arrive at are also of great interest. |
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2012-04-20, 18:06 | Link #28518 | |||||
The True Culprit
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And you're missing the point again. Quote:
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2012-04-20, 18:33 | Link #28520 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I agree with all you said.
The key point in that 'dead' problem is we've to figure out the solution that neither Shannon or Kanon are 'humans' in the way we define a human being normally (a single being who's the sole 'inhabitant' of his own, single body right from his birth and sole controller of it) a thing they, after all, admitted more than once saying many times they weren't humans, that they were furnitures and even that they served Beatrice. And using the word 'dead' for an identity in a misleading manner isn't something exclusive of Umineko. Plus Beato gave that red truth on Battler's prompting, repeating what he asked her to repeat... which is sort of funny in a fashion because he aknowledged that Shannon and Kanon were alive even through they were just 'Yasu's immaginary friends/personality/whatever'. As he was the first to make the mistake of comparing them to humans it makes even harder to blame Beato for cheating. To go back with the lightbulb example if Battler were to ask if the lightbulb and Beato's grandmother are dead she wouldn't be lying or cheating if she answered yes. It would be up to him to figure the lightbulb isn't a person, she isn't supposed to give him solutions. She used misleading reds other times so it shouldn't come as a surprise. |
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