2012-04-20, 18:40 | Link #28521 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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I think the problem is Renall didn't understand what I was getting at when I said this: Quote:
In other words, I want to change the context of the definition, for the purposes of seeing what other ideas we can come up with. This is not a joust to "see who is right, and by extension those who disagree must be wrong!" Quote:
I'm not sure what the point is other than, "Umineko sucks!" (opinion) because "Beatrice cheated!" (possible truth). Quote:
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2. doing bullshit stunts to maintain the mystery and preserve the sensationalism -- Agree and Disagree. Though I wouldn't say it was bullshit. I would say it was entertaining, both from a story-level and watching the fan reaction. 3. He ended up fucking up some of the mysteries with plot holes and technical contradictions -- Agree and disagree. I know there were some contradictions and I can believe some plot holes were created, but I don't know if some of the mysteries were, "fucked up." 4. ... that ruins Umineko as a finished product -- Disagree. I don't think Umineko has been ruined. In fact, it's still providing some entertainment value even if it is finished as I go over again. I can see where some people would be discouraged, however, but I don't think it's been 'ruined' which is an extreme state of utter collapse? Right? 5. practically assuring that over the test of time it will be forgotten -- Agree and Disagree. People are no longer interest in it, but I believe that's more because the series has ended, similar to Higurashi. But I'm not sure there could've been anything else to ensure it did do better though. I have a feeling you have some ideas, so let us hear them. 6. as a mediocre piece of work -- Agree and Disagree. I don't think Umineko is great literature, but I'd rate it above mediocre. I agree with the general principle that if the red text is violated to solve the detective novel mysteries, then that is pretty cheap. And on your opinions of the piece, I agree to some and disagree to some. When I argue for or against the opinions, don't take that as I'm arguing for or against your theories, which are independent. EDIT: (Although in this particular case, I was trying to bring up a new line of thought and got counter arguments of about how I was "flat out incorrect" about something; I have no idea what... ) Last edited by Kylon99; 2012-04-20 at 18:54. |
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2012-04-20, 19:10 | Link #28522 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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If I were to say "Fred and Natsuhi are dead" and later it was suddenly revealed that, unconnected to anything, "Fred" actually referred to a light bulb, I think anybody would be quite reasonable in getting mad at me. However, that isn't even remotely comparable to a situation where I describe a person-like being as dead and then spend the entire rest of my story explaining the philosophy behind it.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2012-04-20 at 19:25. |
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2012-04-20, 19:34 | Link #28523 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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2012-04-20, 22:01 | Link #28524 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Voila. Consistency. Yeah I kind of figured that's what you meant, but I don't see why the clues have to be in the red. A clue is still a clue; if it made you question whether that red meant what you originally thought it meant, then it did its job. If we were introduced to the personality death enigma with the red of EP3 earlier on, and then got all the clues from EP1 and EP2 afterword, I wonder if people would have approached the problem completely differently. |
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2012-04-20, 22:31 | Link #28525 | |
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Regarding unusual definitions:
The first mention of "instant death". Quote:
Beatrice uses an unusual definition of "died instantly" here (for example, a person who is hit over the head, knocked unconscious, and dies an hour later from internal bleeding would qualify under her definition, but not under any typical definition of the phrase). As such, she finds the need to define it immediately.
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2012-04-21, 03:42 | Link #28526 |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Yes, I am perfectly aware of that, but Beato didn't just hope that Battler would solve the mysteries and deny her, she wanted to be acknowledged and understood by him. After all, in Umineko there is the tendency to link the murders with the heart o the one committing them, which is sort of what Beatrice was hoping for. Yeah, it seems awfully roundabout, but what about Beatrice as a character isn't?
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2012-04-21, 04:08 | Link #28527 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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She wants Battler to understand her, but not by just saying "OK, I believe every word you say."
In EP8 Battler says: "To stop thinking means giving up, right?" She didn't want him to surrender as he did in EP2. We could say she wanted him to be able to use golden truth. |
2012-04-21, 05:16 | Link #28528 | ||||||||
The True Culprit
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Even if we did accept everything you said, it doesn't change the actual problem, and it doesn't change that Battler could not be fairly expected to pick up on it because he has a personal investment none of us do. Quote:
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Especially when she keeps showing him magical, three-dimensional imagery of his family members being brutally murdered. That's something people keep forgetting; Battler's not playing the same way we are. He keeps getting fucking emotionally violated constantly. At the very least, she needed to make sure to have no equated Shannon and Kanon with other characters. With a statement like Shannon, Kanon, Genji, Kumasawa, Gohda, and Kinzo are dead, you have no reason to believe that 'dead' means different things for SOME of the characters.
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2012-04-21, 08:35 | Link #28529 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Also, about Beato delivering her message in the correct manner or not: Quote:
So, while a side of her wanted him to figure out that Shannon and Kanon were 'different' from the rest, the other did it best to keep it hidden. It fits with Virgilia's metaphor of a shy person in love who wants the other to figure out she loves him but she's not going to tell him straight in his face 'hey, I love you, what do you think about me?' and actually if prodded might end up saying the exact opposite, too afraid to be rejected to admit her feelings. |
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2012-04-21, 09:23 | Link #28530 | ||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Well, personally I enjoyed Umineko a lot as it is anyway, though I don't say it couldn't have been way better, even perfect. Quote:
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Though it's not like I believe it was stated in the way it was to avoid giving it out, I completely agree with you that it was done knowingly to confuse the readers but I don't see how that violates any of the rules (especially when it shows us Beatrice actually reviving Shannon right in front of our eyes).
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Last edited by Captain Bluebeard; 2012-04-21 at 09:42. |
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2012-04-21, 14:10 | Link #28532 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-04-21, 15:14 | Link #28533 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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The second red truth you're proposing would also raise greater problems by making it even more confusing. A clueless person who still hasn't figured it out would think 'Is it even possible to revive dead people? Screw this, it's not possible without magic, I give up'. After all, I think the whole poing of Shkannon(trice) was to create insane tricks like that.
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Last edited by Captain Bluebeard; 2012-04-21 at 15:25. |
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2012-04-21, 16:16 | Link #28534 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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It's not impossible! Nanjo used Defibrilators!
Or Their hearts mysteriously started to beat again! But don't forget, that red truth permanently damages the witches' options. When Kanon's death in EP1 was claimed to be accident, she didn't reply. Lambda did, but Battler never got to know that. However if Beato said "Kanon did not die in an Accident", then Battler would say illness or other natural death... If she responded again and claimed that it is not the right answer too, then Battler would possibly get to the right answer, which Beato didn't want yet. |
2012-04-21, 22:23 | Link #28535 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Furthermore, in regards to earlier comments about it not being fair if we couldn't tell the difference between Beato pretending to be Kanon or Kanon himself, I'd say that since we know by red that no-one would mistake Kanon and no-one can use his name but Kanon, and we also know that Kanon was dead, either that scene was an outright lie or someone has the ability to bring Kanon back to life and become him at will. That is a bit of a clue in my books.
Also, lets suspend red for one second, the fact someone could perfectly copy Kanon's voice when he is dead sort of implies that whatever was him was somehow reproducible by someone else. |
2012-04-21, 23:58 | Link #28536 | ||
The True Culprit
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2012-04-22, 01:56 | Link #28537 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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2. Well, we have no idea what the Witch Hunters have access to. And it's easier to say the Red narrows down possible answers, rather than make an answer possible. 3. If you used that definition consistently, then sure, why not. Though I imagine you'd have to use quite a few carefully worded "Repeat it in red!" moments to evade detection. I'll also assume you have some thematically relevant conceit about why the name "Kanon" was in the public domain. |
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2012-04-22, 02:34 | Link #28538 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Besides, in the end it doesn't realllyyy matter if game piece or meta battler couldn't solve it all that easily, because we could solve it (and some did) with the info provided. Also, the reason you can find the correct answer without the reds is that if you do have the correct answer, all mysteries fall into place with one trick (ie Shkannon). The red just helps cut down speculation. |
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2012-04-22, 03:55 | Link #28539 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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It may seem to you that the game is unenjoyable to those who didn't have the same 'battle' with the author as you guys did, but I assure you that it isn't true. I was constantly amazed by the unpredictability and everchanging nature of the story, and enjoyed it a lot without trying in the slightest to solve it. Now that I DO know the solution, I do kind of wish that Ryukishi would have been less misleading about it, but I still think that the game is a really great story however well or poorly the solution holds up, and I kind of wish people would view it as a story more than a mystery, like people do with Higurashi. (Although I know Ryukishi kind of shot himself in the foot here by constantly advertising it as a mystery...but that has no effect on how someone enjoys the fully completed work, going into it blind.) |
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2012-04-22, 07:51 | Link #28540 | |||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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It's not like I disagree that Umineko would make for a hell of a story even wihtout the mystery aspects of it, just like Higurashi was, but I think removing it would certainly spoil it a lot. And by the way, neither did I have to wait for years between episodes (until Chiru, at least), I had EP1-4 all in a row, and as much as I enjoyed it, the real fun for me was when I shut off the PC and pondered about it and that didn't prevent me from enjoying the ending. Umineko did have the potential to get a reader seriously hooked, but that was mostly the thrill of the mystery that existed, that made you want to find a solution as soon as possible. Saying you don't care and will just wait to see it in the Answer Arcs seems like picking the easy solution to me (and poses the danger of understanding nothing becuase of the roundabout way the answers are given).
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