2012-06-27, 15:43 | Link #29381 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
|
Quote:
That, or the timing of the red declaration is such that some people are dead. |
|
2012-06-27, 15:45 | Link #29383 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
|
Quote:
Another thing I came across while skimming his theory is, he uses the following reds to actually disprove Shkannon: The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name. Not that Yasu IS Kanon so she can claim his name, no, of course not, it means Shkannon isn't real. They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon! Not that Yasu IS Kanon, again, no, of course not. Kanon is dead. Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim. Not that the meaning of red text is ambiguous and subjective and Beato is a dirty bitch who can mess around with the meaning of words as she pleases, no, of course not, that's what only us simpletons would think.
__________________
|
|
2012-06-27, 16:12 | Link #29385 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Because Ryukishi is positing the existence of a person who has multiple minds, his entire argument is that the mind is non-physical but is capable of interacting with physical objects. Yet said mind is also capable of retreating into a state of non-existence somehow, which is only a property of physical objects. He's committing a massive category error here by proposing that the dualist mind (the "software" argument he makes for Shkanon) is equivalent to the physical brain, when in fact in order for his entire gimmick to work, minds and brains must be entirely separate, such that the definition of a "person" can be categorized as "a body with an active mind." But under dualist philosophy, a mind is a non-physical object. It has no existence on the physical plane, and only interacts with physical matter in an undefined and quasi-mystical fashion. A mind, then, could be defined in Ryukishi's terms as "a conditionally existent intellect (mind) which can affect the physical world." That is to say, the Shannon personality is a distinct mind which cannot be said to "exist" anywhere save perhaps when in direct interaction with its body, and as this setup is dualist in nature, the mind itself is somehow capable of causing physical interaction (by directing the Shkanonform body) without itself being a physical object. Thus, an entirely non-physical, unverifiable, impossible-to-sense-or-apprehend intellect is capable of causing the murders. Hey, that's funny... Beatrice is a non-physical, unverifiable, impossible-to-sense-or-apprehend intellect claiming to be capable of causing the murders. Therefore we conclude as follows:
__________________
|
|
2012-06-27, 16:16 | Link #29386 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
Quote:
About the closed room of EP2: Before accepting his 1st solution, I would rather accept small bombs. Solution 2 is destroyed because of KNOX. And about 3 I think Battler being woken up by Genji was only after he seperated from Rosa and Maria and got drunk, so he probably got the time mixed up... I could be wrong though... also word of god... |
|
2012-06-27, 16:37 | Link #29392 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
|
No blue so I don't have to respond
I will respond anyway: Bill Gates If he really was so intelligent then he should have earned a lot of money with it already Ok... he probably did by YouTube... but now burden of proof is not on my end^^ But also: Intelligence is not enough. Wisdom and Knowledge have to be accounted for too! |
2012-06-27, 17:30 | Link #29393 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
|
ShKanon Theory
Now in my theory the accomplice changes Legend Accomplices: Nanjo, Servants (minus Gohda) and Hideyoshi. First Twilight: Will's Truth: Illusions to illusions. The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions. Red Truths: Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. Therefore, no body double tricks exist! ------------------------- Shannon shot everyone in the Dining Room then Genji helped her carry them. She had attempted to sacrifice Natsuhi but the scorpion pendent was on the door so instead she painted on her door. So Shannon faked her death and Hideyoshi was recruited by Shannon using the Gold as a deal sealer. Second Twilight: Illusions to illusions. A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions. Red: Both were killed by another person! It is not the case that, after the construction of the closed room, one of them committed suicide after committing murder! Furthermore, the murder was carried out with both the victim and the perpetrator in the same room! No method exists for the perpetrator to commit murder from outside the room! ----------------------------- This was never a closed room murder. Kanon and Genji had attempted to open the door but it failed. So Kanon and Kumasawa went to get the wire cutters and paint. Kanon commited the murders and Kumasawa painted on the door. They hid the items under the bed afterwards. Fourth Twilight: Illusions to illusions. Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs. Red: Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games. ------------------------------ Natsuhi lit Kinzo's body on fire in the Boiler Room.Ok now this one sorta does have a point since whenever Natsuhi dies on the First Twilight Kinzo doesn't get burned (Ep 2) or isn't burned till the very end (Ep 4) Fifth Twilight: Illusions to illusions. The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions. Red: All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide ---------------------------- Kanon faked his own death and gave Nanjo the letter and snuck out the back door in the Boiler Room. Sixth, Seventh, Eighth Twilight: Illusions to illusions. Illusions are the blind girl’s song. Illusions of a closed room. Red: Maria, who was in the same room, did not kill them! And of course, the three were killed by other people! ------------------------ After everyone was kicked out of Kinzo's room Beatrice was let into the room by Maria. She shot and killed the three and told Maria to lock the door with the master key and put back then call Kinzo's room and sing. Ninth Twilight: No Truth Red: Natsuhi was killed by another person! The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun! -------------------------- Beatrice hid in the shadows until Natsuhi came out and Natsuhi's gun missed and Beatrice killed Natsuhi. Turn of the Golden Witch Accomplices: Servants (Minus Gohda), Nanjo, and Rosa First Twilight: Illusions to illusions the gold truth locks the lock of illusions Red: Regardless of whether they were living or dead, the six people definitely entered through the door Only one key to the chapel exists It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit Six people definitely entered through 'this front door' This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel The key to the chapel truly was the object inside the envelope I gave Maria The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands!! No door with an auto-lock exists other than Kinzo's study! The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered! All were killed by other people! All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder! There was no simultaneous murder!! There was no one hiding in the chapel. By this, a shut-in murder like you say does not work! When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel! ------------------------------------------------- The chapel door was never locked in the first place. Yasu bribed Rosa with the gold and she had to be an accomplice in the murders. That night Yasu pretended to murder the 6 and after Rosa left she truly murdered them and stuffed them with candy. The reason Rosa went back to get the key was so that she could re-seal the door after discovering the crimes not to open the door Second Twilight Illusions to illusions. Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse. Red: there are absolutely no types of hidden doors This door is the only way in or out The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key or the master keys, only one of which is held by each servant the window is locked from the inside Kanon was killed in this room When locked, entry is not possible by any means No trick could have the effect of locking the door from the outside without using a key There is no way to get in or out other than the door and the window No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room [Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that are you were not aware of No one is hiding No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside ------------------------------- After commiting the murders Yasu killed off her Kanon character "denied his existance" Shannon then slipped the key to Rosa and in turn she gave the key to Nanjo who pretended to find it in Jessica's pocket. Fourth, Fifth, Sixth Twilights Ryukishi's answer is absolute and doesn't need to be disputed.Word of God destroys all illusions. Seventh, Eighth Twilights Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. No illusion can create a corpse.\ From now on I am not listing the red truths I know them so if I miss one please just tell me Shannon murdered them herself and then threatened Gohda to make up a bogus story about what happened while Genji moved the bodies. Later on when he "discovered" them he staked them. Banquet of the Golden Witch Culprit: Yasu (Twilights 1-3) Eva Accomplices: None First Twilight Illusions to illusions. In a closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap. Shannon hid a gun behind the couch where she was for later. After being discovered she hauled ass over to the Chapel and pretended to be Kanon. Second Twilight Earth to earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told. Shannon was trying to leave the mansion after everyone was gone but then she saw Eva and Rosa fighting. Rosa then attacked Shannon since she should've been dead already. Shannon pushes Rosa and then strangles Maria. Third Twilight No one cares about George so he has no truth After killing Rosa and Maria Shannon returned to the mansion to pretend to be dead. George wanted to see her and jumped out the window/or climbed down whatever. He made sure not to leave any marks on the ground. After finding Shannon she shot him. Fourth, Fifth, Sixth Twilights Earth to earth. No falsehoods in their final moments as told. Eva also went to the mansion after them and in there she murdered Kyrie and Rudolf after they tried to attack and convict her of everything. After this Hideyoshi found her and tried to take the gun away from her. She accidently pulled the trigger and killed Hideyoshi. (I don't believe Eva would ever kill Hideyoshi on purpose) Seventh, Eighth Twilights Earth to earth. The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade. The obvious culprit is Eva who in her anger strangled the two and moved them to the arbor. She then rebuilt the barrier in the main guesthouse room. Ninth Twilight No truth Shannon went to go see Jessica but was unfortunently caught by Nanjo. She then shot him in the head and walked with Jessica till the bomb killed them.
__________________
Last edited by Asuka0NK; 2012-07-18 at 15:15. |
2012-06-27, 18:39 | Link #29394 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
Disclaimer: Erika ball theory does not prove that shkanontrice theory is false. it acknowledges that both theories are valid, and acts as a convenient alternative to shkanontrice. The fact that they're equally valid theories does not disprove erika ball theory.
__________________
|
|
2012-06-27, 19:07 | Link #29395 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
1) Personalities are active and can interact with each other until they are killed off, which erases them. 2) The person limit counts bodies, not personalities. #2 is arguably implied by the argument about Jessica having split personalities in EP3, since Battler didn't get shot down by the person limit. We can even take it a bit further, regardless of how switching happens: Whenever Beatrice says that someone exists in a location, such as a room, or the island, she is referring to the physical location of their body. So, the statement in EP3 that "when the five victims were killed, the culprit was in the same room" means that for each victim, the body owned by the culprit and the body owned by the victim were in the same room. All bodies are trivially co-located with themselves! Therefore, since Shannon and Beatrice owned the same body at the time Beatrice murdered Shannon, they were in the same room, regardless of who was active or not! Since Beatrice stated in EP6 that Kanon does not exist in the guest room, you might claim my theory implies that his body somehow escaped, which is impossible. But to "exist in the guest room" means for Kanon's body to be physically present. After entering the closet, Kanon lost the right to call that body his own, and so it could no longer be said to be his! Therefore, once he disappeared, "Kanon's body" wasn't physically present because he didn't have one! How's that? Is it still in conflict with any red?
__________________
|
|
2012-06-27, 19:21 | Link #29396 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-06-27, 19:33 | Link #29398 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
I don't really understand. It seems to me like you've just added an arbitrary restriction that personalities can't be destroyed for some reason. If we're entertaining different models, why can't we have one where they can?
__________________
|
2012-06-27, 19:41 | Link #29399 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Everyone just immediately claims Shkanon can choose to permanently destroy one of its personalities, but there's no reason to believe it couldn't choose to do exactly the opposite. What stops it? Nothing. And Banquet suggests it's possible, as does Dawn. If you can create something exactly as it was before at any time, you haven't permanently destroyed it.
__________________
|
|
|
|