2009-11-09, 03:46 | Link #2961 | |
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Location: That's right... where DO I live?!
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In any case, the fact that piece Battler's observations are one of the very few things we can go on in the series is not one I'd readily discard (the red truth is problematic as it is). And if it were a red herring, then piece Battler's observation has been shown to be untrustworthy, which just leaves us with the red truth to go on. |
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2009-11-09, 03:59 | Link #2962 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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The siblings were actually going to kill Nanjo instead of Kinzo because they needed a sixth sacrifice and wouldn't kill the children, but for some reason they couldn't kill him. If I remember correctly, Nanjo slept in the guesthouse and that might've been unexpected by the adults (who thought that Kinzo was alive and that Nanjo would therefore have a room in the mansion). Krauss and Natsuhi knew of course that Nanjo would be in the guesthouse and prepared Kinzo in the boiler instead. They could easily sneak an extra room into the chain if the adults ultimately agreed to have 5 rooms because they couldn't get Nanjo. This is backed up by how the first twilight in all arcs kills people that are in close proximity of each other. In the first arc, only people in the mansion died. In the second, only the adults discussing in the chapel died. In the third, all the servants having been called to the mansion died. In the fourth only those in the dining room died. Last edited by Geekodot; 2009-11-09 at 11:12. |
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2009-11-09, 04:28 | Link #2963 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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But who is Renon you were talking about? ノックス第1条。犯人は物語当初の登場人物以外を禁ズ!! |
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2009-11-09, 04:43 | Link #2964 | |
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"All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!" Also, you mixed up Kumasawa and Genji. The chain was: 1. Parlor (Shannon) 2. Second floor guest room (Kumasawa) 3. Third floor waiting room (Gohda) 4. VIP guest room (Genji) 5. Boiler room (Kinzo) 6. Chapel (Kanon) Other than the theories I've posted in the past (destroyed keys theory, false conference theory, kanon wasn't "killed" theory) what if someone was hiding in the room? Spoiler for Another theory for episode 3's first twilight:
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2009-11-09, 04:51 | Link #2965 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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A problem here a bit is the frame of reference. Do we consider this red text as a statement of the status of the rooms the moment they were said at 7am, or the moment the murders happenede up until discovery? Given the nature of that discussion it seems more likey Beato was referring to the red text state of the room at the moment of the murders to discovery rather than the moment of discussion.
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2009-11-09, 04:54 | Link #2966 | |
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2009-11-09, 05:13 | Link #2967 | |
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2009-11-09, 08:49 | Link #2969 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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There is a difference between someone who wants a riddle to be difficult and puts many obstacles on the way, and someone who wants a riddle to never be solved and therefore uses tricks to bring the solver away from a solution he already reached. We know that Beatrice wants the riddle to be solved from Ryukishi's words. So while I can understand why Beatrice makes the riddle difficult, I can't understand why she would pull such a move instead of giving hints. If Battler got the right answer Beatrice shouldn't have made it so to make him think it was wrong. Quote:
Runon and Manon are mentioned in Episode5 once. And Episode5 also mentions a never mentioned before servant named Reinon (I guess... it's hard to tell what yomi must be picked) Overall: Runon (瑠音): 4 mentions (Episode2 and Episode5) Manon (眞音): 2 mentions (Episode1 and Episode5) Renon (恋音): 1 mention (Episode1) Reinon (礼音): 1 mention (Episode 5) Only Manon and Renon are confirmed to be still working, the rest are mentioned in past events. So if one of them is the culprit... why Renon? It could be Manon.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-11-09 at 09:19. |
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2009-11-09, 10:14 | Link #2970 | |
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Either way, the extra person on the island is not necessary, but it would explain alot... Can't think of much else that could time a landslide at 24.00 when everyone's whereabouts are known than an unknown person (im believing in the landslide theory and I won't leave it xD) And just to mention, the unknown person on the island can also be some of those from 1998 couldn't it? Last edited by Geekodot; 2009-11-09 at 11:14. |
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2009-11-09, 15:18 | Link #2971 |
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: a better place than here
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Those servants are pretty obvious Higurashi cameos. (Renon, Runon, Reina-Rena Manon-Mion, hurf) That being said, I'd be pretty damn disappointed if Ryu07 decided to throw yet another beloved Higurashi character into the Good-cleansing Evil-filling machine.
Actually... Come to think of it, assuming Erika is the bitchy Rika from Saikoroshi-hen, Rena and Mion just moving on to become temporary servants at the Ushiromiya mansion doesn't seem too far-fetched, does it? |
2009-11-09, 17:22 | Link #2972 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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I've seen some theories recently that link Rosa and Kyrie in the culprit chain somehow. What, exactly, do Kyrie and Rosa have enough in common to work together? It's like a Krauss/Kyrie theory after ep4. Sure, it sort of makes sense from events... but then you have to look at what happens before and ask why anyone would engage in premeditation with those particular pairings. There's no real indication that Rosa and Kyrie even know each other that well, or indeed that anyone in the family knows Kyrie particularly well (by contrast, at least, to Natsuhi and Hideyoshi, whom everyone knows decently well). Eva seems more familiar with Kyrie than anyone (and also more familiar with Rosa). I'm just not seeing much connection, short of maybe both having a young daughter.
And now for a complete crackpot theory: Spoiler for Evil George/Shannon Motive Theory:
Of course, none of this really explains anything, and all but the last theory pretty much preclude any sort of happy ending either for the couple or one of the two participants. One or both of them plotting something certainly shouldn't be left out, I just went for what I thought was the most logical motive. It's even a somewhat noble motive (at least, discounting the variations where someone is to be killed over it). |
2009-11-09, 17:56 | Link #2973 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The George mastermind theory intrigues me. Not only because the revelation of George being the mastermind would be shocking enough (Servants, Rosa and Eva have all been proposed as killers before by Battler), there are some probable hints leading to the possibility that George could snap and kill everyone.
For example, George has said he's ready to fight the whole family for Shannon. He then said that he understand Kinzo and to get back the person he loves he would immerse himself in the world of occultism to resurrect her. There is then Episode4 where unexpectedly he chose the third option. also there is something interesting I have found about episode1 after Natsuhi drives the servants and Maria away from Kinzo's study. Quote:
Because of the knox rules, if such a thing happened there must be clues, and such clues exist only in the case of George. Of course you could argue that there was no need for the accomplice to receive orders if everything was already planned.
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2009-11-09, 19:04 | Link #2974 |
fire of fires
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vesuvius
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There's a discussion about magical counterparts on the EP4 thread, so I thought I'd say some stuff over here where we can talk about EP5 characters and events.
So far, the only ones we have confirmed are Ronove = Genji and Virgilla = Kumasawa, which leaves a whole lot of possibilities for everyone else: Gaap: Shannon is obviously the most logical choice here, not only with their shared status as young female furniture but also this interesting little hint discovered by Jan-Poo. Beatrice: This has been discussed before: Beato = Culprit. Bernkastel: Bern's original role in the game was a watcher, but in EP5 she became a player. Maybe she is a back-up murderer, committing the murders the main culprit cannot? Lambdadelta: Same as Bern, but maybe a bit more active than her. The Stakes: I believe it's widely thought these are the parents. The Siestas: The guns Dlanor: A toughie. Someone logical, who wants to find the truth like Battler, but goes a little...extreme. This person might also be in agreement with Erika in EP5, but doesn't like her. Somebody suggested Kyrie awhile back, which happens to be a good idea. Gertrude and Cornelia: ...There's too little on these two and their origins to think about them yet. Any other thoughts? |
2009-11-09, 19:16 | Link #2975 |
I'm almost there!
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I always personally thought that each demon represents one person, even the goats XD
Stakes = Parents Siestas = Cousins, not counting Battler. 4 Siesta's, one is dead. 4 cousins, one isn't on the island Gaap = Shannon Ronove = Genji Virgillia = Kumasawa 3 goats only shown at a time (but that's probably more of an issue of space on screen) = Gohda, Kanon, and Nanjo. It doesn't make any sense at all, but that's how I saw it at first. Originally Beatrice had 16 pieces and so did Battler, yada yada chess has 16 pieces per player, or so I've been told. Maybe the demons represent the part of each Islander that wants to kill? XD I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore.... |
2009-11-09, 23:09 | Link #2977 | |
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I am thinking on separating them and the possibility of giving the letter to Maria without Rosa's collusion. Anyway, for a linkage between Kyrie and Rosa, you know that before the family meeting, the younger siblings and their spouses were plotting together to squeeze money from Krauss. They certainly had met before to discuss strategies and contingency. Therefore Kyrie and Rosa have met beforehand. Kyrie may approach Rosa in private to suggest a plan of using Maria to deliver the letter during the dinner in order to force everyone to find where the gold was. (assuming Kyrie knew the gold's existence). I presume Rosa knew about Kinzo's death through Genji as I enlist him an accomplice of Rosa. Therefore, Kyrie also knew about Kinzo's death but they decided not to let other siblings know since they thought this would probably lead to threatening Krauss being the most effective way and no one would want to solve the epigraph in this case. (I assume Rosa did not want the siblings to go into struggle at all. She wanted everyone to share the gold probably, not to alienating them further.) Getting the ring from Genji, they faked the letters. (Genji agreed to this plan since he wanted the family to concentrate on solving the epigraph as well, not intra-family struggle) Kyrie, Rosa and Genji all wanted the family to focus on epigraph was what binded them together. In this hypothesis, Kyrie was Beatrice, without Maria's knowing. Finished. BTW, IMO, the assumption that each fantasy character must represent a person is not sound at all. Consider Sietus sisters' case. A better (and more general) assumption is they represent someone or something, be it tangible or intangible. |
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2009-11-09, 23:46 | Link #2978 | |||||
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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You know, that reminds me. Didn't Rosa discover that her bottle of child-use sedatives was empty in Episode 3? Maybe someone (Evil Maria?) filched them for some reason? Quote:
Regardless of the weapon, the neck seems like a strange place to get wounded, especially since two people had wounds there (Gohda and Genji). You'd think that during a struggle, the attacker would go for an easier target. Quote:
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2009-11-10, 01:44 | Link #2979 | |||
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What about the possibility that the ring scenes between Shannon and George are false? Battler's sin from six years ago was that he made Shannon fall in love with him and then left her. She actually rejects George's marriage proposals because she still has feelings for Battler, which resurfaced when he finally returned. Shannon does not tell George the real reason why she rejected him and instead makes up some other reason that makes George want to blame everyone else on the island except Battler since he's been gone for six years. Since Shannon is everything to George this leads him to murder. Of course, for that theory you would still need other groups with murderous intentions as well because someone is bringing the stakes to the island before Oct. 4 and the message in the bottle is likely from before Oct. 4. I think a mixture of the "Patsy George/Evil Shannon" theory and "Happy Ending Couple" theory would be interesting where George plans the financial idea with Shannon but Shannon also has plans of her own that aren't as friendly. Call it "plan B" if you will. Quote:
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2009-11-10, 02:07 | Link #2980 | |
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Ryukishi did say the mystery is solvable after 4, and while it's possible he's exaggerating to some degree, I generally can conclude that there should be clues for that. To compare it to the George and Shannon theory, we know that George and Shannon are close, they spend large amounts of time separate from the rest in the name of love, and we know George is willing to go against his entire family for Shannon. There's nothing indicating Kyrie cares anything towards Maria, there's nothing indicating that Kyrie and Rosa have cooperated any more closely with each other than say, Hideyoshi and Rudolf, and I don't believe for a second that either Rosa or Kyrie (and especially Kyrie) could know where the gold is and keep it secret while passing on that vast wealth and the glory of the Ushiromiya family. I'm sorry, all I see above is "this may have happened, this possibly could have happened", and that's just not good enough. |
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