2009-08-02, 03:04 | Link #2963 |
Golden Watch
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Age: 40
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maybe Battler and Asumu was suppose to be at the family gathering 6 years ago, but because they missed it something tragic happened or didn't happen? And so the event occurs in 1986. 6 years ago hmm, maybe Kinzo was dead since then? Killed by.... Battler?!
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2009-08-02, 03:06 | Link #2964 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Interesting theory, but I think that it's just that Nanjo's original diagnosis was, in fact, correct: Kinzo died 9 months before the story begins. |
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2009-08-02, 06:56 | Link #2967 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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That was also the reason why I mentioned the part with Eva finishing the riddle but the "interest" still wasn't returned. Btw. regarding the 1998 interpretation: IIRC didn't they also mention that NO bodies were ever found? If that is the case: How would they decide that it was an accident? Was it an earthquake or something like this or does the island have a hidden vulcano or something like this? I mean: Even if they bodies were found, the question is still what kind of accident and what happened to Battler to somehow end up in the Meta-World (which brings back my question: What actually is the Meta-World, somehow I doubt that it is only a VN gimmick but it being only a dream is just stupid; however, it being real magic would also lead to the question I will mention next)? Regarding magic or not: Well, I think the answer to the murders will be non-magical but that doesn't mean that magic itself won't exist. Maybe Beatrice wants to reveal the truth behind it and indeed is a witch - however, that doesn't mean that she will be that kind of witch that was represented to us, she might not be cruel at all and might not be able to revive people. As for why she would do this, I have no clue but it would be a possibility. Last edited by ghost_zero5; 2009-08-02 at 07:13. |
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2009-08-02, 07:12 | Link #2968 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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And my problem with Anti-mystery is that explain it that way = "a witch did it". |
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2009-08-02, 08:14 | Link #2969 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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2009-08-02, 08:44 | Link #2970 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 41
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Like I said, I'm anti-fantasy for the murders, but I think fantasy/magic exists in the Umi world, and that the conclusion will be similar to Higurashi's -- Oyashiro-sama existed, but not in the way we originally thought. Beatrice exists, but she's not who we thought she was, and witches/magic don't work the way we thought.
In any case, you can't argue that fantasy doesn't exist at all in Umineko, otherwise time wouldn't be able to be reset. Unless it's all a psychological experience, but trying to explain that makes my brain hurt. |
2009-08-02, 08:59 | Link #2971 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Even if magic exists, I doubt Beatrice is a witch. She suffered quite a defeat from Ange when they confronted each other in the golden land. Even though Ange can accept that magic can exist for someone, she said that Beatrice is a fake witch and her magic is a sham, as opposed to her "true" magic.
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2009-08-02, 09:44 | Link #2972 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Well actually, the time reset or actually different timelines - after all we got four different "game scenes" and also the "outer world" was influenced by that (Eva surviving or not) - is part of the multiverse/parallel universes theory. However, up to now there doesn't even exists a proof for this but also no proof against it and of course therefore there also doesn't exist a way to cross between those (yet) but that doesn't mean that it is impossible.
So you could say that a "Devil's Proof" would (still) work Anyway I agree with June 1983: I am pretty sure that magic itself exists in Umineko. However, I think the murders were not done by magic and if Beatrice really is a witch, is also not clear yet but witches themselves I think will exist in Umineko. |
2009-08-02, 10:52 | Link #2973 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
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2009-08-02, 13:41 | Link #2974 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But Beatrice couldn't say in red that Sakutaro was the only one in the world. Sure she stopped midway, but she was using the same exact words she used a little earlier in white, so it's almost certain she was going to repeat that.
My theory is that Rosa as usual after raging she felt guilty and tried to make up her mistakes by creating another Sakutaro to give as a present to Maria. However I have no clue why Ange found it at Kawabata's house. To me the difference between Ange's magic and Beatrice's magic is that Beatrice can only create fantasies, things that only happen in your mind and not in the real world, but Ange's "true" magic is something physical. Well actually it isn't "magic" at all, and in fact Beatrice said it in red that no magic could be performed in her golden land. But Ange's magic is the "real" thing. While Beatrice couldn't revive the fantasy of Sakutaro because of maria psychological trauma, Ange brought a real sakutaro in cotton and fabric. That's Ange's "real" magic. Pretty much the same thing could be said for the "real" magic she used against Kasumi, which was most probably Amakusa sniping from afar.
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2009-08-02, 14:54 | Link #2975 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Actually, if you want to go the way of a theory that no magic exists at all, then the whole Golden Land, Purgatory, ... scenes have to be illusions or something like this and you more or less can completely ignore them because those definitely are either MAGIC or NOT-EXISTENT.
That would also mean that you could ignore ALL RED SENTENCES as all of them were mentioned there and therefore it wouldn't have happened. That is why I think that a theory where no magic exists in Umineko at all is kinda hard to work. Nearly everything we know would have to be wrong then, starting with the 4 games or with a world where you can watch what happens there,... Of course, a non-magic theory for the murders is not only possible but probably what happened BUT as said that doesn't mean that magic - however, that one would "look like" - doesn't exist in Umineko. However, it could also be that there really doesn't exist any magic in Umineko at all but it would not only be kinda strange but would make nearly everything "senseless". After all everything (starting with the 4 "cycles") that happend would have to be a dream or something like this then - there aren't much other possibilities to what Battler is experiencing - and that would be kinda lame. Regarding Golden Land: She actually only knows the type of magic she uses and therefore that was what she meant with magic BUT Ange's magic is way different from hers and therefore not something what Beato thinks to be magic. However, Ange's magic probably is "real" - whatever we define as real in this case - magic (in Umineko, of course). |
2009-08-02, 15:03 | Link #2976 |
Golden Watch
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Canada
Age: 40
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Maybe Battler is a personified form of all those who have gotten close to guessing the mysteries at Rokkenjima. And the reds are double negatives truths, which couldn't be proven with real life evidence. I mean the bottle does ask for someone to solve the mystery of Rokkenjima.
Maybe everyone is working together to pretend everyone was murdered, but instead they took all the gold and moved to some 3rd world country without having to declare any taxes thus saving them millions. Or they just live in a "fragment" that just happens to have the miracles of "magic". Thus granting them observer status over all of Rokkenjima fragments. |
2009-08-02, 15:57 | Link #2977 | |||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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This is what I find unrealistic: I really don't see a motive for any human to be responsible for this, especially since most of the people that would have to be involved die at or before the end of each game. The witch? She has a motive. "Means, motive, and opportunity", right? Quote:
In fact, if you really want to go Anti-Fantasy, let's ignore absolutely everything not from Real-Battler's perspective. Oh wait, that cuts down the Ep4 to... what, five minutes? Denying magic is ignoring an increasingly important part of both the plot and character development. I can't believe any author would write pretty much an entire game that he intends to be entirely ignored. I think the point is that there are two explanations, there are ALWAYS two explanations, and it really doesn't matter which one is real or not, since they're both perfectly valid, according to Virgilia in Ep3. Assuming she was telling the truth about the parallels between the meta-world and the real world. Quote:
You could say that her body was found, dead on the island by Juuza. Oh, and I'd just like to point out something. Battler can't use it in his argument, but... Beatrice says that there are 17 people on the island. We've always assumed this includes Genji, Shannon, and Kanon, but... Do they really count as 'people', assuming that they are, indeed, artificial humans? If not, where are the other three people? Just a thought. |
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2009-08-02, 16:13 | Link #2978 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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"15 people died" That list of course included all the servants. If they aren't people then who are the 15 dead people that Eva Beatrice is talking about?
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2009-08-02, 16:15 | Link #2979 |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Personally I think that every anti-fantasy scene has a grain or two of truth. Like in EP 3 with the duels. Okay that scene is probably fake, because of Stakes and Siestas, but I don't think Kyrie's tidbit on her miscarriage and what not was fake. It would serve no purpose if it was a lie. When the game came out we knew nothing of Asumu and the revelation that she's not Battler's mom. The Kyrie miscarriage tidbit means a lot more after we learned that, but before it was just back story and character development.
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2009-08-02, 16:16 | Link #2980 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
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@Kaisos Erranon:
Actually, this was directed at Jan-Poo as he was talking about a completely not-magic theory with at least his last paragraph of his previous post. I wanted to state how "strange" a complete non-magic theory would be. A complete non-magic theory for the murders is not only probable but most likely the case but that doesn't mean that there won't be any kind of magic in Umineko. That was my main point. But of course, your idea with two different explanations is good too. That case we would be back at Virgillia's explanation of schroedinger's cat in Ep3 Though Schrödinger only used that explanation only to "counter" Einstein's thesis from the EPR-Paradox. Especially, the reality part that Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen described in it or to the conclusion they came because of it. EDIT: Wait: Artificial beings? You sure that you don't want to use at least a bit magic? Come on that's not even possible nowadays, yet in 1986... But one point is right: If they would really be furniture and that is not just some "strange term" used for servants, then the question would be: What is DEAD FURNITURE? |
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