(CR) Nejimaki Seirei Senki: Tenkyou no Alderamin (Alderamin on the Sky)

[felix]

Originally Posted by Haak

After 3 episodes, I've decided to drop this show. I said before that this show had potential but it seems the story is more interested in shoving Ikta's GENIUS INTELECT in our faces at every opportunity and with every other character revolving around him. It gets old fast and is made worse when it turns out that his enlightened geniusness is really just the enemy being stupid.

With regard to the last bit, Igsem is in the opposition. I think she's not stupid at least.

I don't think Ikta is really portrayed as a genius, it's really like you said more of a portrayal of the good soldier vs the bad soldier.

This is a quote that generally floats around the internet,

Napoleon was supposed to have once explained to an inquirer, "There are four types of soldiers. The first are the dumb and lazy. These I make my infantrymen. The second are the smart and energetic. These I make my field commanders. The third type are the smart and lazy. These I make my generals."

The inquirer, then replied, "That’s just three types. What of the dumb and energetic?"

Napoleon, without skipping a beat replied, "I have them shot."

If I were to guess the quote is probably misattributed for dramatic effect but it is actually quite old. A very similar quote is attributed to german general Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord.

General Freiherr von Hammerstein-Equord, the present chief of the German Army, has a method of selecting officers which strikes us as being highly original and peculiarly un-*Prussian. According to Exchange, a Berlin newspaper has printed the following as his answer to a query as to how he judged his officers: “I divide my officers into four classes as follows: The clever, the industrious, the lazy, and the stupid. Each officer always possesses two of these qualities.

Those who are clever and industrious I appoint to the General Staff. Use can under certain circumstances be made of those who are stupid and lazy. The man who is clever and lazy qualifies for the highest leadership posts. He has the requisite nerves and the mental clarity for difficult decisions. But whoever is stupid and industrious must be got rid of, for he is too dangerous.”

The following is based on the quote and apparently appears a lot in military literature (at least of 1933, the year the quote was attributed to).



So basically, assuming the author based Ikta on this, Ikta is just the ideal officer not the "genius" officer quite yet. Facing the people of the other categories it's not really unexpected for him to win.

I would say Igsem is in Clever + Industrious camp, not sure about the others.

- - -

Originally Posted by Haak

It gets old fast and is made worse when it turns out that his enlightened geniusness is really just the enemy being stupid.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

How many married women in their thirties have you met who have committed adultery with a man over a decade younger than her? It's a nice male fantasy, but probably not very common in reality. Here's a woman with a marriage and a daughter to raise. Is she really going to throw all that over in favor of a teen-aged Ikta? I doubt it. But then maybe I just know more responsible adults. To me the adultery feels mostly like a plot device and an example of poor writing.

Franz Xaver Joseph Conrad Graf von Hötzendorf, Austrian Field Marshal and Chief of the General Staff of the armed forces of the Austro-Hungarian Army and Navy 1906–1917 (basically WW1). Comes from family of officers who were raised to the status of nobility in the times of his grand father. His father was retired established officer when he was born and his mother was 32 years younger then his father. In 1886 he married Wilhelmine le Beau with which he had 4 children, eventually got bored and began an affair with a married woman Virginia von Reininghaus, which he married in 1915.

Incidentally his military campaigns were, facepalm worthy. Probably rivaled only by turkish military leader at the time who sent his soldiers in summer uniforms on a death march over frozen wastes, resulting in most of them dieing in the thousands before even facing the enemy; but unlike said turkish military leader Conrad never actually stopped and continued with such endeavors such as attacking the russians in the mountains in winter conditions no less (not once but three times!) throughout the war, as well as his "achievements" in securing Serbia, the initial war goal which was 1/10th the size of the Austro-Hungarian empire at the time.

Understandably the comparison isn't 1:1 but I think by comparison to history, the show is quite tame with the level of stupid and "realism." Yes by contemporary standards we might say it's "unrealistic" but for the time period it seems to emulate (going by technology and military tactics) it's if anything too tame and modern.

That said, I do hope as well that the war parts get closer to equal ground and Ikta's genious isn't the other party having incompetent leadership. Which, at least going by the bits we got of the republic and the old general we can assume some competent people will get dropped sooner or later to face Ikta.

[larethian]

It's more like a narrative choice trying to tell you about something about his future. There are some famous romanticized historical novels that use something like that too. Romance of Three Kingdoms being one of them. Pretty sure some Nobunaga derived works use something like that too, like The Owari Fool who would one day be known blah blah blah.

Ikta to the other officer cadets currently is like Zhuge Liang is to the initial commanders he destroyed when he was first introduced, before Sima Yu comes along.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

She's probably mostly there for the classes, anyway.

I certainly won't argue with you on that.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I would think Ikta has to be at least in his mid-twenties if he had an affair with Suuya's mother. The girl herself looks to be at least 16-18, so her mother is probably in her late thirties. If he really were not much older than Suuya at the time of the affair, I can understand why she would be so upset.

The difference in their ages is immaterial to how believable their affair is. The only things required are that she be willing and he be able. He could have been 13, and she 50, for all we know. I based my assumption of his age more on the apparent ages of his compatriots (Yatori specifically), and not at all on the assumed age of Suuya's mother.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by larethian

It's more like a narrative choice trying to tell you about something about his future. There are some famous romanticized historical novels that use something like that too. Romance of Three Kingdoms being one of them. Pretty sure some Nobunaga derived works use something like that too, like The Owari Fool who would one day be known blah blah blah.

Ikta to the other officer cadets currently is like Zhuge Liang is to the initial commanders he destroyed when he was first introduced, before Sima Yu comes along.

Or more than likely whoever is directing this (or the LN author, I don't know if the narration is there too) obviously knows the similarities to Legend of Galactic Heroes, thus using the same "documentary style" narration for the events. While its overall not unusual to have that in a war drama, LOGH is certainly most popular example in anime market for that.

However, unlike LOGH this adaptation does not feel like it is going all in into tactics and war drama, which is a shame.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

Or more than likely whoever is directing this (or the LN author, I don't know if the narration is there too) obviously knows the similarities to Legend of Galactic Heroes, thus using the same "documentary style" narration for the events. While its overall not unusual to have that in a war drama, LOGH is certainly most popular example in anime market for that.

However, unlike LOGH this adaptation does not feel like it is going all in into tactics and war drama, which is a shame.

Well, having a future narrator in a war setting is hardly uncommon. You have Arslan this season and its first, you have LOGH, you have the David Lynch Dune, any number of WWII movies and miniseries...

[Harry Dresden]

WEll yes, as I said in that very post. However it is kind of a fact that LOGH popularized that for anime medium and this certainly draws a lot upon LOGH in both character inspiration and some of presentation.

I almost feel like Madhouse's approach to this is limiting it's potential.


EDIT: I do find it hilarious that Arslan uses it since the original novel that Arakawa redid into a manga was written by LOGH author.

[FlareKnight]

In the end I'm not surprised she is holding a grudge over the affair thing. Just not going to really work out for her since Ikta is just that darn smart and capable. May not like him, but will have to respect his abilities. Somewhat surprised she's willing to put out an ugly bit of family history in order to try and shame Ikta. Yeah, it ended up with his squad not having respect for him but....also puts her own mother's actions out in the public. Maybe there was some serious aftermath because of it.

Hopefully in the end they can kind of get along.

Should be interesting to see how the battle plays out. Obviously the hot-headed brother's squad will fall pretty quick. But it isn't just him out there. How the rest of the mock battle turns out should be good.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

WEll yes, as I said in that very post. However it is kind of a fact that LOGH popularized that for anime medium and this certainly draws a lot upon LOGH in both character inspiration and some of presentation.

I almost feel like Madhouse's approach to this is limiting it's potential.


EDIT: I do find it hilarious that Arslan uses it since the original novel that Arakawa redid into a manga was written by LOGH author.

I was simply implying that LOGH is not the only potential inspiration for this story, or for this adaptation's narrative interface. The Framing Device as a trope was very much in existence before LOGH popularized it in anime. In fact, the trope at its basics goes back at least as far as "1001 Arabian Nights", though that was obviously more an anthology of stories and not a single narrative.

[abhjetgon]

http://www.madhouse.co.jp/special/alderamin/index.html

Madhouse' Alderamin site for anyone interested. They've been posting their adaptation choices done on visual front & why on their Twitter & facebook.

[RDNexus]

Anyone capable of translating that?
It may be helpful in the discussions.

[Arya]

Fun episode, Ikta is definitely very close to a gary stu (don't know a thing about bunny-ears-mavericks and what not ). He is way ahead of anyone else for now. Looking forward the next episode regardless, her red haired friend probably will be the last one standing giving him some opposition at least.
Didn't the spirits made the tea this time? Very useful.

[Tenzen12]

Being excellent or even best in something doesn't make anyone Sue. Sue is someone for whom whole universe get instantly boner with of idiots who are obviously wrong.

If Ikta were sue, Rikkan would be still alive.

[Arya]

As I said I don't take it strictly, and I like Gary sues, apart certain exceptions, so I don't give it any bad connotations. in any case for me when even what is supposed to be a flaw is a pros, or despite your supposed flaws you rule over the others then you have stepped into sue territories. Sort of, not that I gave it much of a thought in defining it.

Edit, no, Rikkan is a proof of his sue-ness, basically he was already on par with a general after all. And Rikkan explained himself why he was going to die. Giving him the first bit of wisdom Ikta didn't already had. Bit of wisdom he will overrule of course sooner or later when put in the same position as him and his father.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Arya

Fun episode, Ikta is definitely very close to a gary stu (don't know a thing about bunny-ears-mavericks and what not ). He is way ahead of anyone else for now. Looking forward the next episode regardless, her red haired friend probably will be the last one standing giving him some opposition at least.
Didn't the spirits made the tea this time? Very useful.

A sue is a flawless character that is perfect at everything.
A character having a talent does not make that character a stu/sue.
Ikta has very clearly established flaws, including things like his temper tantrums, lack of social tact and low physical capability.
That alone means he is not a stu.

[Sinestra]

Finished episode 3 and although i see some are not enjoying the series for mainly why most people don't adaptations most of the time is because of the difference from the source material. I myself am enjoying it quite a bit although i am not taking it seriously its just enjoyable.

Damn i know they said Ikta was womanizer but this has got to be awkward running in the girl whose mom you smashed. If hes this bad who the hell is going to marry this guy and even if he does what the chances hes stays faithful. I thought i was sensing some romantic undertones with Yatorishino but maybe thats just wishful thinking since she seems to be the only woman that actually understands him and can keep him in check

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

A sue is a flawless character that is perfect at everything.
A character having a talent does not make that character a stu/sue.
Ikta has very clearly established flaws, including things like his temper tantrums, lack of social tact and low physical capability.
That alone means he is not a stu.

My point is that flaws that have no weight are not true flaws, at least not within the stu/sue boundaries. I don't remember any of his flaws getting in his way so far. On the contrary people are not taking him seriously thanks to them. So in a way they are advantages.
Again, don't take it as I'm detracting anything from him, I like it, and I'm expecting it will be mitigated once we are done with the military school skirmishes.

[Tenzen12]

Yeah because Yatori is always behind his back cleaning after him and stopping him from doing truly stupid things... with exception matters of his affair, that does get in his way right now and it's something he has to clean himself in this arc.

If Yatori and Ikta were single person, that would be exemplary sue. But cut sue in half and you get two interesting characters.

Well if Ikta can get clean win against his redhead childhood friend in practice battle, it would be good indicator you are right, so what about waiting for that?

[Arya]

If is the sue-ness that bother you I can take it back, it was just the easiest and shortest way to express my impression of him so far. He reminds me of Itami from Gate btw.

In any case of course let's see how the mock battle will go. I'm looking forward to it by the way.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Arya

My point is that flaws that have no weight are not true flaws, at least not within the stu/sue boundaries. I don't remember any of his flaws getting in his way so far. On the contrary people are not taking him seriously thanks to them. So in a way they are advantages.
Again, don't take it as I'm detracting anything from him, I like it, and I'm expecting it will be mitigated once we are done with the military school skirmishes.

You mean except for the fact that his love for older women is EXACTLY what is causing him trouble now and the fact that he is physically unfit not only makes his current position suffering, but also means he has to depend on other people appearing where he wants them to be to be protected like with bullying?

If anything Ep3 was all about showing his flaws getting in his way.

[moodie]

Man people just love throwing the term Gary Stu. Want to see a Gary Stu? Watch One Punch Man.