Claymore - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Kai Robin]

Originally Posted by TigerII

Wow, lion king owns. He wasted the strong ones in no time.

what is that cute thing squirming in your avatar? just curious

[Guido]

Originally Posted by xVxObliVioNxVx

Well I must say that I for one thought the Raki/Easley/Priscilla side story is absolutely amazing and well done. I am a bit dissapointed that they decided not fully fallow the manga anymore, but that's ok cause I am beginning to see the anime as a completely seperate entity from the manga and thus choose to judge it in that respect.

Here are the reasons why I thought the Raki/Easley/Priscilla scene was so amazing and well done:

When Raki found out that Priscilla was a Yoma he raised his sword to kill her. But when Priscilla started crying and mentioning her own family, Raki froze and couldn't bring himself to kill her. The big question is why? Remember that Easley told Raki that Priscilla's family was killed by a Yoma. So when Priscilla started crying and mention her family, this gave her human characteristics. This put Raki and state of doubt because why would a Yoma cry over a human family that is supposedly their own? And how could a Yoma have such human characteristics? That's why Raki said, "Why are you saying that?" when Priscilla mention her family. This kind of doubt is what stopped Raki from killing Priscilla, and the fact that he noticed it shows just how intelligent he is, despite the fact a lot people calling him stupid because they can't see beyond his whining.

But when Easley came in and told him that Priscilla is not a Yoma but an awakened being that was once a human, Raki amidly dropped all of his doubt about her, and tried to stop her from eating the human. But once again, the big question is why? The special thing about Raki is that he can see beyond the monsterous state of a Claymore or an Awaken Being and see the human that is inside. Remember, that deep down inside of all Awakened Beings there is human characteristics for they were once human afterall, and the same can be said for Claymores. This is the reason why Raki is so attached to Clare, he is the only person who sees Clare as a human while the rest of world fears her as a monster. And this is also the reason why Raki tried to stop Clare from killing her own friend in episode 2, for Raki did not see Clare killing a monster, in his eyes, he saw Clare killing a human. This why Raki is trying to stop Priscilla from eating the dead man because he sees the human that she is and he is trying to bring it out of her.

Just WOW. I am trully impressed with the direction Madhouse is taking the anime. Trully well done. *claps hands*

Well deduced and makes sense in both the objective and emotional departments.

Spoiler:

In fact, how Raki was readying himself to strike Priscilla from behind with his sword as she was eating the guts unnoticed makes me think likely this was exactly the same scenario that happened when little Priscilla went behind the Yoma, which disguised itself as her father, as it was eating her sisters' guts.

The radical and poignant difference is that Yoma are Yoma and have no trace whatsoever for compassion and mercy. Whereas Priscilla in spite of being an Awakened she still has the shards of her human soul which made her to recall her family, and once crying for her family in sorrow Raki could possibly had understood Priscilla's cry for help.
Help more in the sense that she did not want to be alone and helpless.

People it is really very important that if we are going to judge all the events happening from here on until the very end, then we should at least see them neither black nor white but in the grey scale.

[xVxObliVioNxVx]

Originally Posted by Guido

People it is really very important that if we are going to judge all the events happening from here on until the very end, then we should at least see them neither black nor white but in the grey scale.

Indeed, the anime deserves such judgemental critiria.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

At no point in this whole episode was I ever kept on the edge of my seat, in the same way as I was in say, Bourne Ultimatum, for example. If you ask me, all I see is an episode that grows through the motions of showing lots of people getting killed, as bloodily as possible.

Really? That's all you saw? Even though they spend an entire episode (ep. 20) building up the characters to make the outcome of this episode even more dramatic. Don't mean no disrespect, but its quite a shame if that this is all you were able to see in this rather tragic episode. It's like me saying that all I saw in episode 8 is nothing but violence. Now wouldn't that be a shame if it was true?

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Exactly. Why the f**k would Rigardo recall his forces just to make his grand entrance? What? Because he wanted to make his grand, flashy entrance? It makes absolutely no tactical sense whatsoever. And he's supposed to be the second-in-command of the AB army? I would demote him right away if I were his superior officer.

Like Rigardo said, he can not afford to loose anymore forces. He was aware of the 5 different teams and each team drawing an awakened being one by one and killing them. If he didn't recall his forces, the 5 teams still would have continued this tactic despite his interference, and thus in the process killing more awakened beings which is simply unaccaptable. I thought this was a very intelligent move by Ricardo, because it would be much easier and faster to kill the 5 leaders if they where grouped together instead of having to hunt them down seperately. And of course by killing their leader will cause the rest of the team break down as we have seen with Clare and Deneve. Simply brilliant, no wonder he is a commander of this army. I would give him a promotion for this.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

All-in-all, I can understand why viewers are going all goo-goo-ga-ga over this episode. However, all I see is lots of flair and a lack of substance. As such, I can't rate this episode any higher than a 6.

Care to explain how the episode had lack of substance? With the Priscilla/Raki scene, the Claymore battle plan, and Ricardo's course of actions within the battle, I thought that would qualify for more then enough substance of a 22 minute episode. If the battle itself was mindless, and if the Priscilla/Raki scene was pointless, then I would have to agree, but fortunately that was not case, was it?

[TigerII]

It is Kisara with a little cat from Kenichi.

[Evangel]

Well, it seems to me that it is the same people keep complaining week after week. The funny part is, they keep watching it... If you don't like claymore, may I recommend Yu-gi-oh or Nickelodeon's Avatar

The only thing that I didn't like (I really enjoyed the episode as a whole) was the recalling of the AB's. I like the Manga version much better; made more sense.

It's really crazy how fast the claymores get stronger. These AB's were supposed to be more powerful, but they're getting dropped like flies.

I am going to say Raki IS stupid. Put 2 and 2 together kid! I see this as a good thing, I can't wait to see the look on his stupid face when he finds out about Isley-- Duma**!

I can't wait til next episode, the big fight with Rigald/ Ricardo/ Cesar Chavez? Fan subbers make me giggle sometimes with their literal translations, but I love em.

[Panzerklein]

What will happern when stupid Raki know Priscilla is a must-die enemy of Clare and she is a cause make Clare become a Claymore, I can't wait to know that =)).

[Rhyel]

The Scene from Raki and Priscilla was very good.

Because Raki, like any human, use the eyes sense to determine danger, fear, hope, pity etc

Raki see in Priscilla a small hope. Raki dont understand Kakusheisha, maybe for him, Priscilla is not a monster, or maybe for him she dont want to be a monster.

For this after the Easley words, Raki leaves the fear and embrace Priscilla, for hope to make she stop.

So good scene.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by xVxObliVioNxVx

Really? That's all you saw? Even though they spend an entire episode (ep. 20) building up the characters to make the outcome of this episode even more dramatic. Don't mean no disrespect, but its quite a shame if that this is all you were able to see in this rather tragic episode. It's like me saying that all I saw in episode 8 is nothing but violence. Now wouldn't that be a shame if it was true?

I can't speak for you obviously. I can only speak for what I felt.

I liked Episode 20, by the way, and I take that episode as a good example of what Madhouse seems to do well -- character building. When it comes to action scenes however, I feel that they make a mess out of it.

All I see in this episode is lots of gory violence, and lots of viewers who delight in seeing that violence. Well, that's fine. If that was what they are looking for, I'm not surprised that they enjoyed Episode 21.

What I do know is that throughout this episode, I was completely bored by the battle. The dramatic tension was completely destroyed by the constant flip/flopping between Pieta and Easley/Raki/Priscilla. I see it as a problem of poor direction essentially.

Originally Posted by xVxObliVioNxVx

Like Rigardo said, he can not afford to loose anymore forces. He was aware of the 5 different teams and each team drawing an awakened being one by one and killing them. If he didn't recall his forces, the 5 teams still would have continued this tactic despite his interference, and thus in the process killing more awakened beings which is simply unaccaptable.

I don't see it that way at all (and very certainly, I think the mangka did not see it that way either, check the source material ).

The way that it has been presented in the anime, it does not make any tactical sense for Rigardo to withdraw his forces. If he had wanted to "save lives", and if he were so "bad-ass", then he should have just gone into battle straight away. Why bother sending in the troops at all?

So you see, in the anime, I see an example of the classic stereotype -- "I know I have the trump card that would beat everybody, but I refuse to use it right away."

Originally Posted by xVxObliVioNxVx

Care to explain how the episode had lack of substance? With the Priscilla/Raki scene, the Claymore battle plan, and Ricardo's course of actions within the battle, I thought that would qualify for more then enough substance of a 22 minute episode. If the battle itself was mindless, and if the Priscilla/Raki scene was pointless, then I would have to agree, but fortunately that was not case, was it?

Well, perhaps I overstated the "lack of substance". It would be more accurate perhaps for me to say that this episode relies more heavily on (poor) "flair" rather than "substance".

I don't actually have any problems with the Raki/Priscilla scene. I think it shows great insight on Priscilla's character actually. However, I dislike how the scene is inserted into the middle of a tense battle, which completely disrupts the drama in Pieta. This is a very poor way to portray "action", in my opinion.

[Chudley]

Originally Posted by Negativedark

Actually didn't Claire survive having a Yoma impale her way back in the begining of the series, and a very simeler way? If she didn't get hit in the heart or lungs, then maybe Jean could survive. Then again that is a muvh bigger arm too.

My guess is that Clare had enough yoki to regenerate her abdomen back then. Jean however did drill blade twice (once on a random AB and again on Rigard), not to mention she's an offensive type claymore, so she's probably gonna kick the bucket .

Originally Posted by xVxObliVioNxVx

Well I must say that I for one thought the Raki/Easley/Priscilla side story is absolutely amazing and well done. I am a bit dissapointed that they decided not fully fallow the manga anymore, but that's ok cause I am beginning to see the anime as a completely seperate entity from the manga and thus choose to judge it in that respect.

Here are the reasons why I thought the Raki/Easley/Priscilla scene was so amazing and well done:

When Raki found out that Priscilla was a Yoma he raised his sword to kill her. But when Priscilla started crying and mentioning her own family, Raki froze and couldn't bring himself to kill her. The big question is why? Remember that Easley told Raki that Priscilla's family was killed by a Yoma. So when Priscilla started crying and mention her family, this gave her human characteristics. This put Raki and state of doubt because why would a Yoma cry over a human family that is supposedly their own? And how could a Yoma have such human characteristics? That's why Raki said, "Why are you saying that?" when Priscilla mention her family. This kind of doubt is what stopped Raki from killing Priscilla, and the fact that he noticed it shows just how intelligent he is, despite the fact a lot people calling him stupid because they can't see beyond his whining.

But when Easley came in and told him that Priscilla is not a Yoma but an awakened being that was once a human, Raki amidly dropped all of his doubt about her, and tried to stop her from eating the human. But once again, the big question is why? The special thing about Raki is that he can see beyond the monsterous state of a Claymore or an Awaken Being and see the human that is inside. Remember, that deep down inside of all Awakened Beings there is human characteristics for they were once human afterall, and the same can be said for Claymores. This is the reason why Raki is so attached to Clare, he is the only person who sees Clare as a human while the rest of world fears her as a monster. And this is also the reason why Raki tried to stop Clare from killing her own friend in episode 2, for Raki did not see Clare killing a monster, in his eyes, he saw Clare killing a human. This why Raki is trying to stop Priscilla from eating the dead man because he sees the human that she is and he is trying to bring it out of her.

Just WOW. I am trully impressed with the direction Madhouse is taking the anime. Trully well done. *claps hands*

Well said, couldnt have put it better myself. Respect for Raki +100 after this episode.

[RoryTate]

Wow, an excellent episode. I really respect the way Rigardo assessed the battle, and decided to take out the strongest Claymores the way he did...or rather, I respect the author for writing it that way, and eschewing the ridiculously overused staple of "I could easily kill all of you, but I'll just leave it for my minions to take care of that, while I go off somewhere and finish my plans to destroy the world."

"Argg...how did you survive? And I see you've gotten stronger while you followed me here...strong enough to even kill me...boy am I the world's biggest idiot, eh?" Ha!

From the wounds shown, I believe there is a chance Jeane might still be alive (although that could be my admitted fanboyism poking through). It may not be enough for her to live a long and happy life, but she may have enough strength left to help Clare out in some manner before finally expiring...she has to repay the debt after so much dialog was spent on that motivation...or at least that is what I would say in a normal story, but Claymore tends to throw more than a few curve balls that weren't expected.

Then again, were this a normal story I wouldn't be here commenting on the plot and characters and delving deep into the possible resolutions. Claymore is special.

If I hadn't read the forum posts and looked closely at the last few seconds of the episode a second time, I wouldn't know that Flora was dead. That was simply too quickly animated for me to make sense of it.

Undine dying was like...damn you...no...why...ah crap.

Again, wow.

And the Raki scenes...somehow I found myself remembering a news story a former girlfriend related to me once, about a man who had jumped in a quick-moving river to try and save a child...and had drowned as well because he didn't know how to swim. I had rolled my eyes at it and told her that this sounded stupid...objectively all it meant was two deaths instead of one. [I do admit to being a little annoyed at the time because she was all "chick irrational/emotional" over it, saying this impressed her.] Later though I got to thinking it through, and I recognized the instinct that most men have of protecting women or children. Who can say what was motivating Raki? Humans tend to act first, and then justify their actions by rational thought only afterwards. As such, I think deep analysis of Raki's behaviour in this situation is completely meaningless.

The main reason I like the Raki scenes is...take the Raki and Priscilla encounter and substitute a normal human and a Claymore (minus the entrails eating of course). It is likely that the human would consider the Claymore a monster and swing the sword to kill. However, Raki is one of the few humans who could accept the Claymore as a human being. From there, it is not a far leap for him to be able to react to an AO as a human being as well, especially one that is displaying the human emotion of remorse. Raki sees beyond the outward appearance and prejudices, which is a part of his character I love. He exemplifies many of the best traits of humanity: compassion, understanding, loyalty, bravery, adaptability, empathy, and more.

Oh, and I meant to send a heartfelt thanks out to Eclipse last week, but with all of the comments surrounding the short delay, I figured why give anyone an excuse to start whining and complaining some more. *sigh* Anyway, a volunteer and community-minded effort like this should be recognized through all of the things it makes possible...and the enjoyment and sharing of this wonderful story by so many people is the best outcome that could possibly be hoped for. Let this be recognition for all the hard work you've put into this series!

[TigerII]

Yay, now maybe people' opinion of Raki will change.

[xVxObliVioNxVx]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I can't speak for you obviously. I can only speak for what I felt.

I liked Episode 20, by the way, and I take that episode as a good example of what Madhouse seems to do well -- character building. When it comes to action scenes however, I feel that they make a mess out of it.

Like I said, I mean no disrespect in regards to your opinion over the episode. We all see it differently and I respect that. I just find it shamefully that you would enjoy the character building of episode 20, but disregard its outcome in episode 21. Perhaps you have already read the manga and the tragedy of the episode had no effect on you thus the reason why you may only see lots of gory violence and nothing more???

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I don't see it that way at all (and very certainly, I think the mangka did not see it that way either, check the source material ).

I have checked the source material. However, like I said before, I am beginning to see the anime and manga as two seperate entities and thus choose to judge them in that respect.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The way that it has been presented in the anime, it does not make any tactical sense for Rigardo to withdraw his forces. If he had wanted to "save lives", and if he were so "bad-ass", then he should have just gone into battle straight away. Why bother sending in the troops at all?

Well the answer to that question is simple, Rigardo was fallowing orders. He advised Easley not send the first three awakened being on that recon mission but instead send him, but Easley didn't listen. And during this mission, it was Easley who told him to take 27 awakened beings and destroy the city. Rigardo is simply fallowing orders, but when he saw that the 27 Awakened Beings being killed off he decided to handle the situation his own way, and that is do it by himself. It's like they say, "If you want it done right, do it yourself."

From this we can tell that Rigardo does not like to depend on others and perfers to get the job done alone. Very good character development, I must say! So for him to recall his team is something that acknowledges his own preference and style. And as I have pointed out before, if he didn't recall the others then they would have only gotten in his way.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Well, perhaps I overstated the "lack of substance". It would be more accurate perhaps for me to say that this episode relies more heavily on (poor) "flair" rather than "substance".

I don't actually have any problems with the Raki/Priscilla scene. I think it shows great insight on Priscilla's character actually. However, I dislike how the scene is inserted into the middle of a tense battle, which completely disrupts the drama in Pieta. This is a very poor way to portray "action", in my opinion.

Well I agree, there was more flair then substance, but rightfully so after going through episode 20 which had almost no flair. I suppose its hard to balance the two.

And I also agree with what you said about the positioning of the Raki/Priscilla scene. Though it didn't bother me at all, it was rather poor directing. However, I have to praise Madhouse for the way they directed the action scenes themselves. Like during the beginning of the battle as the awakened beings approached the city while the Claymores awaited them built a lot of tension. It kind of reminded my of Saving Private Ryan. So I would have to say that the pacing of the action scenes themselves was brilliant unlike in the manga where everything seemed to happen so fast and out of nowhere.

[Kouvley]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The way that it has been presented in the anime, it does not make any tactical sense for Rigardo to withdraw his forces. If he had wanted to "save lives", and if he were so "bad-ass", then he should have just gone into battle straight away. Why bother sending in the troops at all?

Because on paper, 27 ABs Vs 24 Claymores sounds like a guaranteed win? Especially considering the highest ranked Claymore is only #6.

It wasn't until they started losing some ABs that Rigaldo realized he had to step in before they lost even more of their forces on what's essentially a warm up battle.

That's the way I saw it anyway.

[Davidj]

Then again, there's also the consideration that he'd be in real trouble if he went in there and it turned out the five officers were in fact the top five. Sending the fodder in lets him assess the foe more easily.

[Hikapo]

Originally Posted by Kouvley

Because on paper, 27 ABs Vs 24 Claymores sounds like a guaranteed win? Especially considering the highest ranked Claymore is only #6.

It wasn't until they started losing some ABs that Rigaldo realized he had to step in before they lost even more of their forces on what's essentially a warm up battle.

That's the way I saw it anyway.

Ya i agree because they need those 27 ab's for future seiges right?

Given 3 is down they have 24 left. So their army strength is weakened.

And Rigald is so powerful that he killed 4 captains in an instance was just devastating. Whats in store for us next episode? I can't wait!!!!!

[superzombie23]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

What I do know is that throughout this episode, I was completely bored by the battle. The dramatic tension was completely destroyed by the constant flip/flopping between Pieta and Easley/Raki/Priscilla. I see it as a problem of poor direction essentially.

I agree, switching the settings really screwed the drama and tension building up.

[DarkSide Hero]

Originally Posted by TigerII

Yay, now maybe people' opinion of Raki will change.

Nope sorry he is still an idiot; I was hoping Priss would turn around and eat him too.

[blackmarks]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The way that it has been presented in the anime, it does not make any tactical sense for Rigardo to withdraw his forces. If he had wanted to "save lives", and if he were so "bad-ass", then he should have just gone into battle straight away. Why bother sending in the troops at all?

So you see, in the anime, I see an example of the classic stereotype -- "I know I have the trump card that would beat everybody, but I refuse to use it right away."

i saw Rigardo's strategy as a move similar to Undine's and her team's first encounter in Pieta. she ordered anyone who couldn't evade the first attack to fall back, they're just in the way. Rigardo is that strong (don't think this is a spoiler but it is from the manga: he is a former #2, like Irena and Priscilla... as Clare says in the subs: "colossal"). That "classic stereotype" makes excellent tactical sense: send in the troops and gauge the enemy strength. After losing a few soldiers, he was able to determine who the leaders were and went in to eliminate them. It also solidifies his place in the pecking order -- i took care of the tough ones, you weaklings take care of the rest.

I love the direction the anime is going (where it ends, who knows). Madhouse is making the series stand firmly on its own. Good stuff!

[TheMutt]

Idk about anyone else but I seem to be having Berserk flashbacks. I liked the ep but anyone else getting that feeling.




Also to the people who dislike the gore, honistly I think its not there to be glorified but to exemplify the difference between the lower # claymores as well as awaked ones. That was my take on it and I enjoyed seeing the characters that had been developed torn up. Shows how hopeless the fight really is and what they are up against is not a "mean person who will do not nice things" but something that will rip you to shreads if you make the slightest mistake.

Side note I liked the manga better but calling out the troops to me seemed like he had enough time to evaluate the threats after not expecting anything. but thats just me.

[TigerII]

In your opinion. I don't think so. I hope he stays around for a while.