2012-08-16, 14:09 | Link #30041 | ||||||
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And even if EP5 seems to imply that Natsuhi was responsible it's literally impossible for Yasu to know even with moderate certainty that she really did. What we've seen can't be anything but a mere conjecture. Besides, Ep5 wasn't even written by Yasu so it's anyone's guess whose conjecture that was. Quote:
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There are of course a lot of better examples including other stuff written by Ryuukishi to make the reader understand what an evil guy did and why thus making you sympathize for him even if you don't approve. My conclusion is that Ryuukishi tried to do the same for Yasu and failed. He never said before that people "don't understand". Quote:
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2012-08-16, 14:13 | Link #30042 | |
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2012-08-16, 14:26 | Link #30043 | |
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The only way I can think of that could have made that possible is the case of Natsuhi having confessed the truth to Genji and in turn Genji reported that confession to Yasu. But according to what we've seen Natsuhi always denied any blame. Lacking that you'd need to think someone among the three above witnessed Natsuhi pushing the maid, but that's really unlikely and absolutely never mentioned nor hinted. What's left then? one of three lied by telling Yasu that they were sure Natsuhi pushed the maid even if they couldn't possibly be that sure? In the end the simplest explanation is that Beatrice simply concluded that Natsuhi committed that crime even if she had no proof whatsover.
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2012-08-16, 14:59 | Link #30044 | ||
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Kinzo may be forgivable if what he did really occurred, but only because he was sorry about it and tried to make amends for it. Yasu expresses no remorse and takes no steps to make amends (and in fact, if she was guilty, willfully committed to making Ange an orphan). She should not receive any forgiveness for crimes she will never have any opportunity to make restitution toward. Ange can only project remorse in her own mind, but believing your family's murderer was sorry and forgiving your mental image of her and your family's murderer actually being sorry are two entirely different things. Quote:
By merely examining facts I would be able to understand Yasu. You don't need love or any of that crap to comprehend a crime and intellectually grasp the reasoning presented for why it was done. It is only after that point that you reach the emotional stage of either sympathizing with the culprit or condemning them as behaving in a manner which is morally unacceptable. This is true whether you condemn or condone their actual actions. People whose behavior in no way merits anything but condemnation should not expect any measure of sympathy or "understanding," in the way Ryukishi seems to frame it. Yet that clearly seems to be what Ryukishi wants us to do. He does not want us to say "Oh, so Yasu is the killer for the reasons you have stated? Very well then, everything she did was morally reprehensible and she is a terrible broken person with a warped sociopathic morality, and a coward besides who killed herself rather than face any consequence for her wholly selfish actions." I am absolutely certain that is not something he wants us to believe. That means he either thinks we must be sympathetic toward an utter sociopath - which is absurd - or he's trying to tell us that either the culprit wasn't a sociopath or Yasu wasn't that culprit. To believe otherwise is basically to think he knows nothing about people in general.
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2012-08-16, 15:47 | Link #30045 | |||||
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Ange is firmly sure it was Eva who killed her family when not even the police could prove Eva was the culprit. We don't know which circumstancial evidence Yasu had that pushed her to believe Natsuhi was responsible in Ep 5 that's why it can't be dismissed as foolish to assume she believed Natsuhi was the culprit. If it were disclosed then we could say if it's a poor or a good evalutation of the facts but so far Umineko doesn't bother with it. For all we know Yasu might have had suspicions, might have used her key to intrude in Natsuhi's room and checked on her past diaries. Then she took the diary containing that information away. If Natsuhi kept 1 diary per year, it leaves enough diaries to be found by Erika and if Natsuhi doesn't check if they're all there she might have not noticed the diary of 19 years ago disappeared. Anyway Yasu believes her to be the culprit and so she uses this fact when she makes some scary phonecalls in EP 5. The interesting part is that with her behaviour Natsuhi likely enforced that belief. Quote:
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PieceYasu's actions however doesn't make sense whatsoever. It's possible they would make more sense if we were allowed to dwell more into her line of thoughts but Umineko doesn't really give us the chance to do so. Each time I try to find a way to sort out her reasons I slam into a 'this is crossing boundaries too much'. Quote:
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In <b>Mirai Nikki</b> there's another murdering girl who kills for love but her drama and her reasons are explained clearly at the end. Sure, she's mad but you can sympathize with her because you can understand what drove her up the wall, what twisted her mind so that she thought what she was doing was 'right'. PieceYasu on the other side... it's way harder for plenty of reasons that I've already listed more than once. I really prefer to think that the one moved by love was PrimeYasu who merely wrote the tales and possibly organized a mystery game... because this is in the boundaries of what one can do for love. What PieceYasu did instead... it's beyond me. |
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2012-08-16, 15:59 | Link #30046 | ||||
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Secondly, while I won't deny the possibility of Jessica being murdered (EP4 does have everyone being murdered, epitaph be damned), it just reads as really odd to me. I guess it doesn't change all that much either way, though. Well, keeping in mind that the rules of the Meta are pretty inconsistent, at that specific time the reasoning was "You must make that claim objectively. ... You require concrete proof that Kyrie changed her mind." The 'ad infinitum' problem was avoided quickly by stumbling upon a motive that couldn't be refuted, presumably because it was true. It was weird, though - I'd call it tonge-in-cheek even if it went farther, since the Van Dine list explicitly calls that solution cliche and "a confession of the author's ineptitude and lack of originality." Also, the witch side DOES seem able to change certain parameters - I mean, it's your story, noone can stop you writing it the way you want. Battler isn't the culprit, this can be said of all games" totally doesn't stop Evil Battler from rippin' it up later on. Quote:
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2012-08-16, 16:30 | Link #30047 | |
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2012-08-16, 16:33 | Link #30048 |
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Whenever I think of Yasu's motive I don't think of it just her being in love. I see the motive was her motive for writing the stories in the first place. Why would she write them if she had nothing to gain which goes back to the whole thing of showing everybody in a good light and how just because someone does bad doesn't make them a bad person. I believe that Yasu wasn't meant to follow this idea but to represent the idea. I mean if Yasu didn't commit the true murders and was actually just a victim then you can probably believe her reason for writing these stories was to protect that person so that they wouldn't be criticized and remembered as a terrible murderer. Instead Yasu threw herself under that so that she would be made out to be the killer and not the true culprit. Sorry if everything I'm saying is stupid but whatever.
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2012-08-16, 18:31 | Link #30049 | |
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The topic at hand is PieceYasu's motive. Was she not give one as all? Was it always 'love'? Was it something different? Was it a meta motive as someone suggested 'Our confession' might have implied? Was the motive absent or out of character because the purpose was to make Battler wonder why Beato/PrimeYasu would write a story like that, forcing him to question her motive to write a story like this? |
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2012-08-16, 23:03 | Link #30050 | ||
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Well, it's interesting, anyway. Erika almost brings up something similar ("There weren't even wounds on their necks..? So why did Battler scream?!") but she's immediately blind-sided by Gaap about the issue with Kinzo before pursuing it further. Quote:
If you're asking me to specify Piece Yasu's motive in detail, well, I can't really do that. At best, I only have the vague ideas of "roulettes of fate" and whatnot and at worst, I'd almost call it incomprehensible. I have NO idea what Piece Yasu would have WANTED to have happen, outside of maybe Battler immediately solving the epitaph, remembering his promise, and spending the rest of the conference making out with her in front of everybody. |
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2012-08-17, 01:45 | Link #30051 |
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Whatever happened to the possibility that the fantasy narrative was the primary one? EP7 talked about Yasu's fascination with the idea of a mystery being a duel between a human detective and a magical witch. What stops her from writing a fantasy story about a witch who likes creating locked room howdunnits that don't require magic? Then you can stop trying to force silly motives on Piece Yasu, who doesn't exist, and neither the mystery nor the fantasy gets thrown out.
Spoiler for That one Carr novel:
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2012-08-17, 07:24 | Link #30052 | ||||||
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Anyway Ryuuishi constructed a scenario where he makes you believe that person X did Y, and yet he wants you to understand them. There is absolutely no denial in the sins of the Rokkenjima victims through EP8, in fact EP8 confirms many of those, and yet while it confirms their sins it depicts everyone as a "happy family". We're not talking about what the "real" Ushiromiya did, we're talking about Battler's last story. Quote:
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It seems to me you are making an unfair judgement based on the fact that one had the time to feel remorse and the other didn't because she killed herself. How the hell Yasu was meant to make amend to that if she didn't live much past her evil deeds? The difference in your judgements is based on an external situation and not on the persons themselves. Who said that Yasu wouldn't feel sorry, or well, what if she actually felt sorry in the end? Her metaself did say she was sorry. Quote:
Going by what emerged repeatedly from the narration of Umineko we know that those stories: 1) Are mysteries meant to be solvable by human means (no magic) 2) Are meant to make Battler (and you) understand the culprit's heart. The problem that everyone here is having is that they read those stories they have more or less understood what's going on on those stories and yet they can't understand the culprit's heart. Adding a metamotive to the culprit of those stories would mean to break the first point, because the mystery would be no longer solvable by human means if the culprit's motive was not part of that world. At any rate I think that Ryuukishi's interview makes clear that he thinks we should understand why the love gone wrong experienced by yasu made her kill people, not that we should understand that she really didn't do anything bad.
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2012-08-17, 09:41 | Link #30054 | ||||
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It also doesn't seem to make a lot of sense that she'd stop doing what she's doing if a completely unrelated puzzle is solved. It also kind of makes light of Battler's struggles and makes it seem like him not being serious enough for Beatrice is hypocritical. If she's just messing around, why does he need to care so much? She's the one who made him treat it as something other than an amusing challenge, then got mad when he didn't get it. Quote:
If she is truly a killer, she was never made to acknowledge that what she did was wrong and completely unnecessary. What she did was evil, flat out, and your presentation of her is unequivocally an evil character. There's no need to understand her heart because she is heartless. The matter is actually worse if she actually believes in the whole Golden Land thing, because it means she believes she can murder people and then kill herself and gain their love and forgiveness without facing any punishment. It's the logic of a spoiled child. Granted, I'm still not sure I'd buy that. I'd rather the whole thing just be an accident than to have to accept a person who was just sick and evil. Quote:
It's entirely Ange and Battler's prerogative to forgive, but the fact of the matter is her actions really shouldn't be forgiven. If Ange wants to pretend the person who deliberately ruined her entire life (and the lives of whoever else may have survived) is contrite, fine. If that makes her happy, I guess she can do that. But ultimately it's just another sham fantasy that Ryukishi thinks makes people's lives better when all it does is harm their growth and maturity. It's her own business how she chooses to respond to all that, but ultimately it isn't right to choose to believe the person who harmed you is a tragic figure deserving of your sympathy. It's basically a desperate search for reason where none is to be found, at least according to Ryukishi's supposed motive because if that's true then Yasu was mentally ill and everyone died for nothing. I'm sure that is difficult to accept over "she was a tragic figure acting out of lost love and regrets what she did," but it's also not shifting undeserved sympathy away from a genuine victim and over to a murderer who believed killing completely innocent people was justifiable if it made her better off. The difference with Kinzo is that Kinzo's acts, if true, at least had some clear effect on him and drove him to repentance, and concrete steps were taken to actually atone. It isn't necessary that he be forgiven (and if everything said of him is true, perhaps everything he did isn't enough to make up for it); again, forgiveness is the prerogative of the people he wronged (and he wronged more than Yasu). But Kinzo's cowardice was far less than Yasu's alleged cowardice, so he at least stuck around to suffer for his own wrongs and do some good, suggesting he understands that his actions were not right. I'd still prefer to believe she's innocent, because as a culprit she makes absolutely no goddamn sense and anyone who is satisfied with that should seriously reexamine why in the world they'd accept such a thing. Quote:
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2012-08-17, 10:17 | Link #30055 |
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Hm , Sorry for coming out of nowhere lol. What we can all agree is that nothing justifies murder,
And I don't believe Yasu did kill anyone in prime, Yes her motive is weak (Unless she snaped and went crazy, which does not need a motive), But I do believe she is the culprit of the gameboards of Ep1-4 . As others have said many times, In Prime she probably set up a fake murder game and because of paranoia , People start to kill for real, Also George VS Battler might have lead into Kyrie shooting George and Eva thinking that she was the culprit. Yasu Blames herself for this and in the end commits suicide. I mean why do Ange and Battler forgive her so easly, It does not makes sense, Nobody can forgive someone for murder of their parents and reletives, not to mention a 9 year old child |
2012-08-17, 10:22 | Link #30056 |
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You could forgive them, but like you said, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do it so readily. I get the impression that they both believe that the culprit would have been sorry and thus seek to forgive them. Well, that or they both realize Beatrice wasn't the true culprit and forgive her misleading them to protect someone who is bad. It's a lot easier to understand someone covering for somebody else's crimes because they care about them than understanding the person who committed the crimes themselves.
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2012-08-17, 10:34 | Link #30057 |
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Most of the people hate shkannon solution, am I the only one who likes it? XDD
I mean such a twisted twist I love it completly, And the multiply personality disorder. Of course I dont believe such things exist in the real world but In fiction I'll change my mind. |
2012-08-17, 10:37 | Link #30058 | ||
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2012-08-17, 10:44 | Link #30059 |
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Then what was EP7 ??? , Maybe they fired the gun acidentely which leads to others to believe she/he is the culprit? Their are tons of stuff I can use from previous Episodes , so Knox wont work. In EP3 Second twilight is also a acidental murder, Which I believe Eva pushed rosa because she was hitting maria and well you remember how rosas corpse was found and then killed maria because she didnt want others to know. What if something like this happened? Anyway I give up , Im no match for you animesuki pros XDD |
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