2012-10-18, 19:28 | Link #30901 | ||
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Disregards way, way too much of the story for me to really go with it, but damnit if I can entertain the idea of 6-year-old Ange as an evil mastermind who blew up her family, I can entertain this a little, too. Quote:
To keep from getting into a rant, Ryukishi brings up a lot of ... well, interesting points in Chiru. very interesting. He seems to be a writer who's very aware of what he's doing as a writer, but is ... inconsistent in how he feels about it. "Fine the truth!", but then "No, you don't need the truth." Or "Fill witches with an entire barrage of stakes!" but then "Don't forget the heart." And then there's EP5's where both of the answers acknowledged as valid we are outright told are both wrong, anyway. Is Battler/Erika's answer better? Certainly more interesting and clever ... or are they just overeager goats who didn't notice that there was clearly a drawing of a hunk of cheese that would not bend the way they suggest, right on the page? Are they ignoring the heart of childrens--puzzle-book-writer-dude..? ...unless, wait, maybe you're talking about Prime? Who the hell knows what he intends THAT answer to be. You may as well say he wrote the question, burned it, and handed you a blnk sheet of paper with some corner scraps of the burnt paper. All you can evens write is "Yup, there's some real burnt paper, here." |
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2012-10-18, 19:43 | Link #30902 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Ep 7 for start. If Yasu didn't solve it half of EP 7 is pointless. Plus it's implied by how bribes were handed to the servants (and likely to the relatives) [Ep 4] and by how someone activated the bomb on purpose (the mechanism as described in EP 7 isn't intuitive at all) and warned Eva she would do better to escape. Our confession also implied this. And Ryukishi's interview confirmed this. Quote:
Anyway, written will or not I don't think Yasu inherited legally title and gold, expecially the gold as it's not supposed to exist since Kinzo owned it illegally but the title also as apparently no one officially notified Yasu's inheritance to someone nor Yasu was inscribed in the family register or officially recognized as Kinzo's child... which would have been troublesome because, if I'm not wrong, the type of incest from which Yasu had birth is a crime in Japan and Beato 2 wasn't even registered as a living person... nor was the baby's birth registered. The point is: Yasu perceived himself/herself as Kinzo's heir a belief Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa supported. Yasu had access to the gold which could be converted for him/her in cash by Genji and Yasu probably had no idea or doesn't care about how difficult it would be to legalize his/her claim at being the heir. Age though isn't a relevant matter in chosing the heir as in EP 7 Kinzo wanted Lion to be the heir and Lion is definitely younger than Krauss, while Eva hoped Kinzo would choose her successful son over Krauss and Rudolf his male sons (as well as the 3 females that are in a higher place than George in the family line of importance). We don't know if Kinzo ever consider making Beato 2 the heir... it's possible he was hoping to marry her somehow instead than declaring her his daughter so it might be he had a different plan for her. As he wanted to see Yasu as his child/grandchild instead Kinzo wanted Yasu to be the heir. Quote:
Christie did many things that weren't exactly classical, like having a policeman being the culprit, or the guy who seemed to be the detective being the culprit, or having the narrator being the culprit or victim & culprit dying by suicide. She even let a culprit escape and we even had a maid who inherited a fortune because she was the actual secret illegittimate daughter to a rich person. She's sort of a mini beato who, interesting enough, doesn't wear a skirt. She's also similar to Lion and Clair. I guess it makes sense she would present herself as such though. Quote:
Anyway I think that Beato's words about Battler's sins are truthful on a certain point of view. On the gameboards the guilt is undoubtely on Battler as they're built to make him the cause of everything. Now, if we consider Prime, the whole story seemed to imply that, at least in this reality, what Battler did started a chain reaction that lead to the Rokkenjima incident. However, EP 7 seems to imply that, even if Battler hadn't done what he did the situation was as such that, although in a different way, we would reach the same result. This doesn't make Beato's red wrong, it just says it's possible to reach the same result (everyone died) even in a way that's different from the previous (via Yasu's game) Wait so he talks about Our confession as well? |
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2012-10-18, 20:06 | Link #30903 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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It implies that Uminekos central figure is actually Maria, that what we see is her fantasy, its her story and that the girl we see in 1998, Ange, is the actual Maria who relives her childhood fantasies in an alternate universe/reality due to her current living situation being the same as in childhood causing her to escape back into her fantasy.Ange meeting Maria = herself overcoming those illusion, realizing that actual magic doesn't exist allowing her inner child to move on. Like I said I don't believe but I just like it somehow.XD Quote:
They simply reached a far better conclusion than one that is indeed right. Everyone part Battler and Erika said 3.That is correct. Though not THE answer cause as Maria said it, THE answer was 1. So yes their answer was better and THE actual answer overcoming an answer that is still correct but not the one that was looked for. And how'd they do it? One thought it was too easy.The other knew both answers and realized the books mistake and are stated by Maria herself that their answer is absolutely correct. Implying that while something can be true it doesn't it is THE truth. Then again, I don't wanna cause a (bleep)storm or something. |
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2012-10-18, 20:25 | Link #30904 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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While it's certainly true that most of us didn't suspect that Shannon was the culprit or the heir until very late on, the servants as a whole have been obviously suspicious the whole time. In fact, they're so suspicious, you don't even have to think up explanations for most of the closed rooms, since they depend entirely on testimony from those people. Even more suspicious than this is the character of Beatrice. We've been outright told that she's the culprit constantly, and the old witch pranks tie her pretty clearly to someone living/working on the island. This is the biggest problem with Shkanon. It has plenty of details that we might find interesting and/or unexpected, but in the end, "crazy person who was Maria's friend, lives on the island, and has a love of the occult killed everyone for an insane ceremony" is the most obvious answer early on in EP1, and remains the most obvious answer throughout the whole series. Remember the EP3 Ryuukishi, who gave us a half-dozen plot twists in the last few chapters of each game? I find it hard to believe that game's biggest twist is supposed to be which one of the servants was actually the ringleader.
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2012-10-18, 21:56 | Link #30905 | |
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2012-10-19, 01:20 | Link #30907 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Of course, then there's the meta-world and the magic scenes that couldn't have been part of them anyway so I'll have to agree with you regardless. Only slight modifications by Itsuko then (+ discussions about the story starting from EP2)? Otherwise it'd be hard to claim that a author switch happened between EP2 and EP3 if Itsuko already wrote the first two as well. Quote:
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There's another reason why I like to believe in the way Lion's world is structured, despite not having a single basis for of it: Battler didn't come back in Lion's world, where he probably neither had a relationship with Lion akin to the one he had with Shannon nor a promise; he came back in Prime (and thus causing the gameboards). If we want, we could find one conclusion, one message that Ryukishi might've wanted to tell us with EP7-Lion-gameboard layout: Battler remembered in Prime - he came back for Shannon. Doesn't make it right or true in any form of course, but it's a "kinda happy end" that I can accept. Sadly it's hard to combine this thought with the "Nervous Wreck Battler"-theory (= the one where Battler snaps during the Prime-murder game and is the first one to shoot, hence Eva hiding the truth from Ange and Battler losing his memory when failing to cope with this in any other way) because it takes away all the basis for the murder game to happen in the first place. Still, that theory is a personal favourite of mine as well, kudos to whoever thought of it. |
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2012-10-19, 02:42 | Link #30908 |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Why, you think he'd miss that? He does crap all over it in one part of his videos, I don't remember which one.
But be warned, it's shitty as could be, he's using just the LyricalAura's summary. Yep, he goes on and on for about half an hour without even having red the actual stuff. In all fairness, she must have been a pain in the ass to depict, but that long hair is seriously not cute, especially for a boy.
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2012-10-19, 04:40 | Link #30911 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Of course I can't answer that, I'm not the Author afterall but your point of making up the entire of Umineko strongly reminds me of the Movie Identity from 2003. Malcolm Rivers was a killer that awaits execution for several murders at a motel. While awaiting execution his journal contains information about the actual truth. A group of strangers find themselves stuck at a motel cause of a storm. While they spend the night, they realize there is an unknown murderer present killing everyone. All the others become worried, and Ginny runs to her room. Her husband Lou chases after her but is also murdered. Ed and Rhodes find the con, knock him out, and put Larry on duty guarding him. However, he is later found dead. Paris discovers a dead body in Larry's freezer. Larry attempts to escape in his truck, claiming he did not kill anybody. He then accidentally runs over George, killing him. Each body is accompanied by a room key, which appear to represent a countdown. The survivors tie Larry up, and as he tells them his story the others start to believe that he really did not kill anyone. Ginny and Timmy both die when their car blows up, but their bodies are nowhere to be seen. The remaining four discover that all the bodies have disappeared and that all 10 share the same birthday, and have surnames the same as US states. Paris also discovers that Rhodes is a convict as well, having killed the corrections officer transporting him and Maine across state and assumed his identity as a police officer. Rhodes attempts to kill her, but she is saved by Larry, who in turn is shot dead by Rhodes. However here is the deal: Malcolm suffers from a personality disorder and that all the murders occured within his mind and everyone being a personality of his. The murders were are way to eliminate the hostile personality of the actual murders (The ones Malcolm had done in real and awaits execution for) to save him from execution. In the end only Paris survived but inside Malcolms mind, she now lives on a Orange Grove and finds her Motel Key on the floor just like with the other victims and finds Timmy behind her revealed to be the actual hostile personality having orchestrated the murders faking his own death within Malcolms minds killing Paris and taking over Malcolm. Incidentally, Timmy took over when Malcolm was being driven to a Mental Insitution strangling his psychiatrist causing the van to get in an accident leaving his fate unknown. Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-10-19 at 04:55. |
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2012-10-19, 08:18 | Link #30913 | ||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese community would have a different opinion just based on them having a more accurate set of reds. Quote:
The Nanjo thing stems from his interpretation of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers, spoken in EP4 about the 6th-8th twilights in EP1. He considers it a "general statement" so it applies across all games. So basically it's more a matter of it fitting Nanjo's condition of not being a killer than to fitting Kanon's condition of still being alive. But yeah, it's still pretty awful. And you're spot on about his second theory. It's even worse. Quote:
Logistical reasons to believe pre-incident authorship: 1) Bribing the police should be pretty difficult. Thematic reasons to believe pre-incident authorship: 1) Eva, who survives in the real world, dies in both of the bottle-stories. 2) Beatrice is supposed to be dead by all magical accounts. Logistical reasons to believe post-incident authorship: 1) Battler's return was predicted. 2) Ange's absence was predicted. 3) The typhoon was predicted. 4) An accident was predicted. (Well, this just means that either the author is the actual culprit, or it was written after the tragedy) Thematic reasons to believe post-incident authorship: 1) The way I see it, this situation is kind of like a closed room, except it's bound by points in time rather than physical windows and doors. So I see debating whether these logistical conditions allow the author enough time to write... as similar to debating how long the chain is on a closed room and whether it allows someone to lock it or unlock it from the outside. But knowing how Beatrice rolls, the answer has nothing to do with the chain and everything to do with the witnesses: In this case, it's that random fisherman that found the one bottle and the police that released the other. So yeah, I believe in post-incident authorship. A lot of people here do, though not everyone. Quote:
I wonder if these two ideas can be grafted together. Quote:
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They read the same Dawn that Erika did... when she slept through the love duel. It's yet another example of Erika parodying them without them even realizing it. |
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2012-10-19, 09:10 | Link #30914 | |||||||
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Didn't even think about EP1's TP for this... how they are all happily discussing their current predicament until Battler forces their death... Quote:
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2012-10-19, 10:23 | Link #30915 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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But it's not the same thing. In EP5 everyone else was in on it and did their best to hide the corpses from Erika (the detective), plus there kinda were hints of fake deaths all over the place.
I've watched his explanation of the EP1 twilight, I clenched my teeth and tried to endure him, but it's utterly ridiculous. Okay, maybe it was the bad wording of 'death drug' like you said above, but still.... nothing in his explanations seems to tie in with anything, that's why I can't see where the idea he's uncovered the big conspiracy behind Umineko comes from. Plus he's an arrogant bounder. Quote:
Even if we accept that Rosa is the Prime culprit, even if we clench our butts and half-heartedly say: yeah, all the absurd stuff make sense, it was all crazy lady for no apparent reason (yeah, sounds almost like Shkanon but at least regardless of how solid it is, at least it does actually connect the points with SOME logic), how, oh, how the hell are we so sure that Ryukishi is writing bullshit to deceive us, waiting for an enlighted guy with an unbearable accent to come and uncover everything in YouTube, and what reason is good enough for a person to spend four years of his life masturbating via the internet at the expense of the people who are dumb enough to read his prodcut. Apparently, he won't tell.
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2012-10-19, 10:37 | Link #30916 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Though anybody else thinking this is all we'll get to see of Yasu? As in we'll never see her actual face/eyes. Oh and, I freaking LOVE this one: Spoiler for Manga:
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Then again, I only watched one video not even full cause I admit, my head actually couldn't take it.XD I got nothing against the guy, nor theory I don't mind it, though he does strike me as a bit of a (bleep).Or at least arrogant partially. My doubts are little regarding Yasu as I said before, though personally I am an admirer of the depth regarding her and the truth. Don't really care if people disagree but I see Yasu as simply an amazing character without equal. I explained it to a friend as she only saw the Anime and she was like: "Too deep!TOO DEEP!" Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-10-19 at 10:51. |
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2012-10-19, 11:02 | Link #30917 | ||
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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And maybe Ange's roles in the stories were so small, Yasu could just erase her name and fill it with whatever, if she wrote it with a pencil. Even if Ange's absence was informed a day or two before the meeting.
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Last edited by theacefrehley; 2012-10-19 at 11:24. |
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2012-10-19, 11:33 | Link #30918 | |
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That, or the bottle being in police custody at all was also a lie.
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2012-10-19, 14:13 | Link #30919 | ||||||
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As the tales always end with everyone dying and reaching the Golden Land it makes sense she's not included in the cast. It's also possible that the tales were a lot more vague on the details than what the story we read was, for example making impossible to know when it started raining exactly. A storm is a typical excuse in horror movies to keep a bunch of people all in a place so it's a common trick to write a story (I even suggested to use it to a friend who was writing a horror story and needed an excuse to trap some people in a place years ago). Incidentally those two coincidences came true when the Rokkenjima incident took place while it didn't come true the fact that everybody died as Eva survived. The fact that nobody takes the tales seriously and apparently, apart from checking they weren't written by Maria, they didn't bother to check if they were written by someone else, pushes me to think that, although they gave a definite 'Rokkenjima' feeling the police didn't believe them to be relevant, one way or the other, nor that there was a need to bribe someone into saying they have found such 'irrelevant' tales (irrelevant as they doesn't really help figure out who's the real culprit in Prime as they are considered only by the witch hunters). The fact they don't seem to push the blame on everyone (Ange doesn't wonder about why they implied person X was the culprit, nor apparently the police or the witch hunters) imply they weren't written to push the suspicions away from the true culprit but the whole point of the tales as presented seem to be to solve Beato's heart or, losely, to figure out the pain Yasu went through when Battler didn't keep his promise as this is the motive for PieceYasu to murder. Yes, they seem to be an awfully huge amont of things to write but there's people who's famous for speed writing so it's not impossible to write them in the short amount of time prior to the incident. All this to say... unless Ryukishi will come out and confirm either a theory or another that's not possible to say for sure if the tales were written prior or after the incident. Everyone embraces the theory he/she likes more as they have both strong and weak points. Quote:
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What if the both of them had the bright idea to organize a murder game, Shannon with the adults as accomplices and Battler with the cousins as accomplice and the two muder games clashed against each other sending everyone into a paranoyd frenzy? Also, the game in which Battler didn't come back and Yasu didn't play her game and yet everyone died, although might seem cruel, is, in a way, nice, as it clearly states that the murders weren't their responsibility but that they would happen regardless of what they were to do. It's still horrible as it destroy the hope of a happy ending but, in the real world, there's no chance for it so, at least knowing they weren't to blame and that they merely, at best, provided a setting but weren't the reason behind it, can offer some sort of comfort. Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-19 at 14:33. |
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2012-10-20, 02:20 | Link #30920 | ||||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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And to be fair, it's really quite hard to make Nanjo not be an accomplice no matter what theory you ascribe to. Quote:
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Basically, these are the kinds of awkward arguments I was talking about before; it's searching for a silly gap in the closed room, like saying maybe the chain was set from the outside or maybe they used small bombs. Sure, maybe it's possible, but it's probably not the right way to think. Quote:
And I don't know why you assume the police didn't investigate the writing. If they did, they would do it discretely in the first place. And if we go by your interpretation, since Ootsuki didn't mention it, the Witch Hunters themselves also did not check for other peoples' signatures. |
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