(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[nojay]

Originally Posted by Guido

Lügner's partially right to hate geniuses from which that statement of his refers to monsters by his standards.

What I mean the hard work approach yields rewards but to a certain extent. Once the limit is passed like it eventually yields diminishing returns. On the other hand, smart work approach allows for creativity and ingenuity coming at play which in turns gives birth to new kinds of interesting results never seen before.

Hence, humans reverse-engineering Zoltraak to turn into a demon-slaying spell is something new and alien from Lügner's perspective that cannot be compared side by side to the owner's original spell.

Lügner is wrong about the geniuses but it's a failing of the demon race that leads him to say that. They lack the ability to collaborate unselfishly with other demons. Any association or cooperation is for their own personal benefit, not to benefit demonkind in toto the way the mage researchers worked together to adapt and perfect Zoltrakk for the benefit of all non-demons.

Lügner believed that only geniuses could adapt and improve Zoltrakk whereas it was middling research mages who did the hard work of sciencing the shit out of the spell over many decades. Qual was a genius, the original inventor of Zoltrakk and he got taken down by a top-class mage who isn't a genius but Frieren had help, lots of it.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

It's implied that Fern has actually had a lot of combat experience off-screen, just not against another demon or human.

She talked about her first encounter alone against a monster with Stark, and in this episode we see that Frieren usually leaves her to do most of the fighting.
That's why Fern didn't put up much resistance as Stark did when Frieren said she wouldn't fight Lugner - it's because this isn't the first time Fern has been left to do the work.

To be fair, Frieren is leaving to also do the work, the one which Fern cannot do (yet).

[Mad Pierrot]

How cute. Frieren's children are also turning into Slayers. Also I'm pretty sure the guy they saved was in the opening. Probably the guy who smokes.

Still, that scene of Fren and Stark remarking that blood on their clothing was a bad sign sure was random. The demons really found them just like that.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

Still, that scene of Fren and Stark remarking that blood on their clothing was a bad sign sure was random. The demons really found them just like that.

It wasn't random. Last week Lugner remarked he put his blood on them so he'd be able to track them. Fern was never injured, so when she realized there was blood on her robe she immediately understood what was going on.

[Mad Pierrot]

But where did the blood from Fren's coat come from?

[grecefar]

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

But where did the blood from Fren's coat come from?

it was lugner, there was a small and quick scene when they run away that lugner throw a little of his blood on Fern's coat.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It wasn't random. Last week Lugner remarked he put his blood on them so he'd be able to track them. Fern was never injured, so when she realized there was blood on her robe she immediately understood what was going on.

And with some of the smoothest clothing animation of all time .

[Twi]

That was just the studio flexing at that point.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Frontier

And with some of the smoothest clothing animation of all time .

That was some beautiful disrobing right there .

[frubam]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

That was some beautiful disrobing right there .

I didn't think people would mention that. Stark's "re"robing(or "re"jacketing ) in the same episode had a similar effect.

[ChronoReverse]

It's just crazy how they already had such a well animated episode and they decided "okay we're going to rotoscope some of the smoothest clothing animation for completely throwaway scenes just to flex"

[Mad Pierrot]

Guess this is what happens when you get the same studio that animated the first season of Onepunch Man (don't you dare bring up season 2)

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Guido

Lügner's partially right to hate geniuses from which that statement of his refers to monsters by his standards.

What I mean the hard work approach yields rewards but to a certain extent. Once the limit is passed like it eventually yields diminishing returns. On the other hand, smart work approach allows for creativity and ingenuity coming at play which in turns gives birth to new kinds of interesting results never seen before.
Hence, humans reverse-engineering Zoltraak to turn into a demon-slaying spell is something new and alien from Lügner's perspective that cannot be compared side by side to the owner's original spell.

That's not what Lügner meant though. He means that demons put in effort to get where they're at now but thinks that Frieren and Flamme didn't and are just automatically that strong.

It's disingenuous because he doesn't really know or care to know what they've been through, just like he thought he was better than Fern.

[Kazu-kun]

What Lügner calls "genius" is a natural (inborn) advantage that lets someone achieve the same or better results in less time than it would take most people to achieve.

Magic in Frieren is primarily about accumulation of training-time, but there are natural talents that allow some people to achieve things faster than others. That's the sort of "genius" Lügner is talking about.

His mistake was assuming that Frieren had that kind of natural talent, because he actually doesn't know how long she had been training and how much effort it took her to learn what she knows and get as powerful as she is. For all we know she was actually average when she started, but got really strong because she has lived longer than most people and accumulated more training time than most. Lügner didn't know that so he assumed she's a genius but we actually don't know if that's true.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

What Lügner calls "genius" is a natural (inborn) advantage that lets someone achieve the same or better results in less time than it would take most people to achieve.

Magic in Frieren is primarily about accumulation of training-time, but there are natural talents that allow some people to achieve things faster than others. That's the sort of "genius" Lügner is talking about.

His mistake was assuming that Frieren had that kind of natural talent, because he actually doesn't know how long she had been training and how much effort it took her to learn what she knows and get as powerful as she is. For all we know she was actually average when she started, but got really strong because she has lived longer than most people and accumulated more training time than most. Lügner didn't know that so he assumed she's a genius but we actually don't know if that's true.

Fern, on the other hand, would definitely qualify as a genius, wouldn't she? I don't think he realized she's only 16 when he stated he could see she did dedicate her whole life to magic.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Fern, on the other hand, would definitely qualify as a genius, wouldn't she?

I'm starting to get that impression too. When Frieren just met Fern, she said Fern had excellent mana control. Frieren remarked that getting good at mana control is actually really hard and takes a lot of time to most people so Fern being this good at such a young age suggests there was a natural talent at work there. Of course she was putting a lot of effort into her training too, but there's no way that alone would explain getting that good after just a few years of learning magic.

And now they reveal she's also the fastest spell-caster around. That smells like a natural talent too.

Maybe the author is trying to build up Fern as the second coming of Flamme. That would be cool.

[Twi]

To be fair, how many spellcasters have we seen at this point who weren't Demons that razor-focus on one kind of magic?

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Fern, on the other hand, would definitely qualify as a genius, wouldn't she? I don't think he realized she's only 16 when he stated he could see she did dedicate her whole life to magic.

That's a fair assessment, but on the other hand, I don't think Lugner cared how old Fern is. He still thought that Fern was weaker than him.

The only two anomalies in his mind are Frieren and Flamme, because they're the only two he has no choice but to concede defeat towards.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

To humans, yes, that is a valid interpretation, but on the other hand, I don't think Lugner cared how old Fern is. He still thought that Fern was weaker than him.

His assessment of Fern was probably inaccurate though. He said he was better than her at mana control and also had a bigger mana pool, but I think he was totally wrong. Fern had excellent mana control since she was 8 years old, and now she must be even better. And about her mana pool, it must be pretty big because she was beam-spamming zoltraak the whole time and didn't run out of mana.

Hopefully they will clarify these points next episode.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

His assessment of Fern was probably inaccurate though. He said he was better than her at mana control and also had a bigger mana pool, but I think he was totally wrong. Fern had excellent mana control since she was 8 years old, and now she must be even better. And about her mana pool, it must be pretty big because she was beam-spamming zoltraak the whole time and didn't run out of mana.

Hopefully they will clarify these points next episode.

Yes, Lugner being an unreliable judge of talent is my point. He doesn't know or care about the effort others put in, so how can he tell what a genius is?

And even if Fern is a genius, she also had been training her magic since she was only 8. She's had about 8 years of training and combat experience (albeit against monsters) even before Stark joined the party.