About Shinn and Kira...

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Eagles

When Kira was flying around disabling every MS he could, he made them a bunch of sitting ducks. He caused unnecessary deaths (Heine for one - and it's unrealistic to assume Heine was the only who was killed by being distracted), and basically made everything a mess. The first battle ends with Orbs retreat, which would have probably ended sooner had Kira not damaged Minerva, damaged the Impulse, been a major factor in Heine's death, and generally distracted ZAFT's aces (Athrun/Shinn/Heine).

And the second battle? Sure his timely intervention may have saved the Minerva, but had the Minerva gone down the battle would have ended. Then after Cagalli's speech doesn't work a second time his continued presence of the battlefield probably prolongs the battle again. Shinn wipes out the Orb fleet, which probably would have happened faster had Athrun not been tied up and then 'saviored' and Rey and the Minerva not damaged later on.

He may have caused unnecessary deaths, but he also saved lives with his intervention. The battle ended with Orbs retreat, sure, and it is obvious that the battle would've ended sooner.= had Kira not been there. Because, you know, the MINERVA WAS ABOUT TO FRIGGING BLOW UP THE TAKEMIKAZUCHI WITH THE TANNHAUSER. That might have killed thousands of people, BUT HEY, better than an alien mobile suit intervening right and saving them, although the battle will be longer, right? And how is the fact that he is simply better than the three aces not justify his intervention? Hell, if they are so worried about him, then take him out!

Sure, had the Minerva gone down, it would've only killed, what, 1000 or so people and killing Meyrin, Talia, and other people who are friends with Shinn, Athrun, and Rey. And this would be bad, rite, because, you know, Kira is um, Athrun's um, whatchamacallit again, oh yeah, FRIEND? I am sure that Kira saving the Minerva as it was Athrun's mothership had nothing to do with it.. . . Shinn wipes out the ORB fleet indirectly because of Kira's presence. Kira activated his SEED which made him suddenly an uber-pilot. And I am sure that had Kira just left him alone, Shinn would just peacefully negotiate with the ORB forces whether he can kill hundreds of them without mercy. And I am absolutely sure that Kira's disabling dozens of mobile suits had nothing to do with saving the pilots' lives from Shinn.

[coba]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Shinn should have familiar the Freedom design from the past, there are only 3 M.S. including Freedom battling in that area were many scattering civilian flee to the evacuation area. If Shinn could remember when he first encounter the Freedom somewhere in the Mediterranean sea he might goes berserk and curse at the Freedom.

But this is all just an assumption though. In the anime, he never knew who shoot the beam and hence, he does not blame anyone for the death of his family. In fact, in ep 20, it seems he blames himself for fail in protecting his family (typical cliche in anime )

[monster]

Originally Posted by Eagles

When Kira was flying around disabling every MS he could, he made them a bunch of sitting ducks. He caused unnecessary deaths (Heine for one - and it's unrealistic to assume Heine was the only who was killed by being distracted), and basically made everything a mess.

It's a battle, not a picnic. You don't know who's going to die and who's going to live. At least with Kira, there's a bigger chance the people he shot lived through it, especially when the battle ended quickly with a stalemate instead of one party destroying the other.

The first battle ends with Orbs retreat, which would have probably ended sooner had Kira not damaged Minerva, damaged the Impulse, been a major factor in Heine's death, and generally distracted ZAFT's aces (Athrun/Shinn/Heine).

You mean end with Orb's forces destroyed? In case you haven't noticed, Kira is not exactly on the neutral side here, at least, for Cagalli's sake.

And the second battle? Sure his timely intervention may have saved the Minerva, but had the Minerva gone down the battle would have ended.

Well, that was to reinforce he's not really there to take sides.

Then after Cagalli's speech doesn't work a second time his continued presence of the battlefield probably prolongs the battle again.

Just remember it was Shinn who fired the shot that got the battle going again.

Shinn wipes out the Orb fleet, which probably would have happened faster had Athrun not been tied up and then 'saviored' and Rey and the Minerva not damaged later on.

And what good would it do for Kira if Orb forces got taken out quicker? You don't seem to get that Kira is there for Cagalli and Cagalli is there for Orb. It's a good thing they were there to pick up some of Orb survivors.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Nope, they aren't. That's one of the reasons such forums as Animesuki exist. To share opinions.

LOL, I'm not pretending anything. I'm just replying to you and you reply to me. Normal thing. Every action brings reaction. Even the sharing of opinions. Your reaction to my bad opinion about Destiny Kira and good about Shinn... I find pretty amusing.

AND... if you did not care about my opinions, you'd not answer to them.

You still don't understand. The fact that I responded to your opinion, with the word "Opinion" means that I do not care about what you think. I stated your opinion as pointless, did I not? What I don't understand is why you continue to sound and elaborate your opinion to me. I thought you made it clear numerous times in the past, it was all the same thing. Do you not think it pointless? That is also why, I cannot help but feel that you are sounding that particular opinion to me. You were instigating me to reply when you know all too well that you need not care about what I said either - the one word called opinion. I am just fulfilling your desire.

Originally Posted by Eagles

By his emotions would be...by himself? Indeed he was manipulated by Rey, but I think he was just simply following/believing in Durandal.

If someone was controlled by his id, then he is no longer in control of himself, just by his very emotions.

Therefore, no, he wasn't acting rationally i.e being himself. He was just acting based on his emotions.

Also, if Rey was acting under the commands of Durandal, how is it not Durandal manipulating him as well?

That seems like... the most immature reasoning (on Cagalli's part) that I've ever seen. Maybe I'm just interpreting it wrong.

You're not exactly interpreting it wrong.
You are just refusing to see the perspective. In Kira's perspective, he was stopping the fight based on Cagalli's/Orb's principles. Cagalli clearly refuses alliance with Earth and war to happen in Orbs territory. She, the President of Orb, told them to cease their attack. They did not, if you haven't notice. Therefore, Kira decided that his power would stop things, that it would help decrease Cagalli's sadness; thus the attack against both sides.

Now, the analogy I brought up. If Orb wasn't in alliance with Earth at all, and the EA & ZAFT fights near Orb's territory; Orb in the state of being neutral, would should either of them who trespass their territory.

The only difference here is that there are two sides of Orb. One with, and one without allying with Earth. The one allied with EA clearly will not cease fight. The one still neutral cannot stop them from happening and thus tries to stop the fight. The one neutral, therefore has to shoot down both of them.

I do not think it is immature reasoning.
If you still think so, then I would just have to say that in the end, immaturity ended the war.

..and I probably got too lengthy :q

[aeriolewinters]

If you still think so, then I would just have to say that in the end, immaturity ended the war.

Pretty much why Destiny Fails


Cagalli's stature wasn't even solid to begin with. She had to be dragged out by Kira for that to happen. Plus there's the fact that It is not sure who is in control of Orb.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Neku

You still don't understand. The fact that I responded to your opinion, with the word "Opinion" means that I do not care about what you think. I stated your opinion as pointless, did I not? What I don't understand is why you continue to sound and elaborate your opinion to me. I thought you made it clear numerous times in the past, it was all the same thing. Do you not think it pointless? That is also why, I cannot help but feel that you are sounding that particular opinion to me. You were instigating me to reply when you know all too well that you need not care about what I said either - the one word called opinion. I am just fulfilling your desire.

Wow, android-level analysis of obvious things. Thx man.

Well, one has a right to share his opinion here and there. And that was what I obviously did. Pointless to you? Maybe. To me it isn't.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by coba

But this is all just an assumption though. In the anime, he never knew who shoot the beam and hence, he does not blame anyone for the death of his family. In fact, in ep 20, it seems he blames himself for fail in protecting his family (typical cliche in anime )

The point of view of Shinn statement at ep20 said It was the Orb ideals and Athhas to be blame itself for not protecting his family that he believes they should have surrender to the EAF rather than endanger the lives of the civilian its impossible to defend everything against mass superior EAF M.S. and all of their talk about policy of justice was failed to deliver it. Wouldn't you hate the nation that is responsible for not confronting the enemy, and allowing a conflict that killed your family and friends to take place? That's why Shinn chose Zaft to take opportunity revenge against the EAF. Its impossible for Shinn to join Orb military they would ever do anything more than a bunch of impotent posturing. ZAFT, on the other hand, had bite to go along with it’s bark.

[coba]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

The point of view of Shinn statement at ep20 said It was the Orb ideals and Athhas to be blame itself for not protecting his family that he believes they should have surrender to the EAF rather than endanger the lives of the civilian its impossible to defend everything against mass superior EAF M.S. and all of their talk about policy of justice was failed to deliver it. Wouldn't you hate the nation that is responsible for not confronting the enemy, and allowing a conflict that killed your family and friends to take place? That's why Shinn chose Zaft to take opportunity revenge against the EAF. Its impossible for Shinn to join Orb military they would ever do anything more than a bunch of impotent posturing. ZAFT, on the other hand, had bite to go along with it’s bark.

I completely agree with your POV on how Shinn hates Orb and its ideal in general. However, I don't believe he joins ZAFT for his revenge. In fact, from ep 1, we can see on how Shinn enjoys his teenager life goofing around with his friends. He surely does not plot anything for his own personal vendetta. In fact, in ep 20, Shinn clearly implies that the reason he joins the military is because he wants the power (to protect).

p.s.: BTW, I do believe that Orb is not really as neutral as what Cagalli thinks. They have people like Seiran who does not like coordinator. I also still remeber on how Erica Simmon hides her identity as coordinator implying the same thing.

[srb]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

The point of view of Shinn statement at ep20 said It was the Orb ideals and Athhas to be blame itself for not protecting his family that he believes they should have surrender to the EAF rather than endanger the lives
of the civilian

That's not all. Clearly, the evacuation was botched, any pre-battle notifications to the EAF of where civilians would be evacuated were clearly botched or not sent at all, and the defensive plan itself was botched.

The incompetent civilian and military leadership of Orb in the face of imminent conflict clearly led to the death of his family.

That's why Shinn chose Zaft to take opportunity revenge against the EAF. Its impossible for Shinn to join Orb military they would ever do anything more than a bunch of impotent posturing. ZAFT, on the other hand, had bite to go along with it’s bark.

Shinn never joined ZAFT in order to have revenge, he joined ZAFT so that he could prevent others from experiencing loss like he had - well, at least that's one of the reasons. He was also a traumatized war orphan, and ZAFT would most likely be a way for him both to restructure his life, provide him with food and shelter and prepare for essential things, such as continuing his studies after his "tour of duty" or however ZAFT operates.

Cagalli thinks.

Never happened.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by srb

The incompetent civilian and military leadership of Orb in the face of imminent conflict clearly led to the death of his family.

No, it was Mayu's carelessness and stubbornness that led to the death of their family.

[srb]

Originally Posted by Neku

No, it was Mayu's carelessness and stubbornness that led to the death of their family.

Yes, clearly, a fourteen year old girl's desire not to part with one of her material possessions was the main reason, not the fact that they were in a warzone and had no prior evacuation notice which would have placed them out of harm's way. How silly of me! Your views are quite revolutionary and, if you don't mind, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Zenemis]

Actually, Mayu's carelessness and stubbornness would've *saved* the family, had they all gone down after it like Shinn had.

We might've had like, Impulse Gundammar or something, if Mayu had lived.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by srb

Yes, clearly, a fourteen year old girl's desire not to part with one of her material possessions was the main reason, not the fact that they were in a warzone and had no prior evacuation notice which would have placed them out of harm's way. How silly of me! Your views are quite revolutionary and, if you don't mind, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

It's been a long time since I've watched it, however, if there had been no prior evacuation notice, how would they even know where to go?

It is of course their fault that they didn't escort every single family out to safety. It is inevitable to say that they were irresponsible. Yet I could not refrain from thinking whether they would've survive if they had continued running to the evacuation spot.

That said, I am pointing out that everyone is evacuating. They all had the same chance to live. However, Shinn's family's chances of survival were decreased because she could not bear to part with her cellphone. I really couldn't not say that it's not the more obvious reason.

Don't worry. You're not silly. You're probably just looking in a bigger picture. It's not revolutionary too, it's just there if you could see it. By the way, I always prefer the word eccentric, if you don't mind.

Originally Posted by Zenemis

Actually, Mayu's carelessness and stubbornness would've *saved* the family, had they all gone down after it like Shinn had.

We might've had like, Impulse Gundammar or something, if Mayu had lived.

Of course. But the opposite happened. She indirectly caused their death.

They stood idle because Shinn went forth to claim her cell. However, we of course would not know what'd happen if they had kept running. The same to be said that if Shinn did not try to retrieve but instead lingered to convince Mayu to just run, he might've been toast as well. It all comes down to... who knows?

[Zenemis]

Indeed, who knows.

Mayu should've used SEED. Silly girl.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Zenemis

Indeed, who knows.

Mayu should've used SEED. Silly girl.

Yeah, sure, and Shinn should have used his uber-Newtype skills to hypnotize Mayu to keep going.. . .

[NightMare_Hibari Kyo]

the best charecter in destiny series is kira no doubt for me all the others have weak charecters in seed kira sucks but in destiny he is the best and about kira's reason of fighting i see that he has the best reason to fight for not like shin fighting hos hometown and not knowing alot about the world before joining zaft and about the gap of powers between kira and shin its a large gap the first time shin destroyed the freedom was because kira remimmbering himself he was like shin doesnt know what to fight for so that didnt make him focus in battel u know kira soft hearted to others so the proof is the end even athuran beated shin and fast so kira can do so too i dont care about close range combat and range i see kira as they say the ultimate coordinator so the word ultimate means good at everything and i would like to say again he has the best reason to fight to stop world war and help everyine not like the stupid shin fights without thinking of anything btw i hate him when he fights keep yelling lol and i liked when athuran showed him his place with that slap anyway sry off topic thats what i have to say

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by NightMare_Hibari Kyo

the best charecter in destiny series is kira no doubt for me all the others have weak charecters in seed kira sucks but in destiny he is the best and about kira's reason of fighting i see that he has the best reason to fight for not like shin fighting hos hometown and not knowing alot about the world before joining zaft and about the gap of powers between kira and shin its a large gap the first time shin destroyed the freedom was because kira remimmbering himself he was like shin doesnt know what to fight for so that didnt make him focus in battel u know kira soft hearted to others so the proof is the end even athuran beated shin and fast so kira can do so too i dont care about close range combat and range i see kira as they say the ultimate coordinator so the word ultimate means good at everything and i would like to say again he has the best reason to fight to stop world war and help everyine not like the stupid shin fights without thinking of anything btw i hate him when he fights keep yelling lol and i liked when athuran showed him his place with that slap anyway sry off topic thats what i have to say

Joke post? For future posts, please use punctuation. It benefits everyone.

[RAVNEN]

Originally Posted by NightMare_Hibari Kyo

the best charecter in destiny series is kira no doubt for me all the others have weak charecters in seed kira sucks but in destiny he is the best and about kira's reason of fighting i see that he has the best reason to fight for not like shin fighting hos hometown and not knowing alot about the world before joining zaft and about the gap of powers between kira and shin its a large gap the first time shin destroyed the freedom was because kira remimmbering himself he was like shin doesnt know what to fight for so that didnt make him focus in battel u know kira soft hearted to others so the proof is the end even athuran beated shin and fast so kira can do so too i dont care about close range combat and range i see kira as they say the ultimate coordinator so the word ultimate means good at everything and i would like to say again he has the best reason to fight to stop world war and help everyine not like the stupid shin fights without thinking of anything btw i hate him when he fights keep yelling lol and i liked when athuran showed him his place with that slap anyway sry off topic thats what i have to say

What the?
Yeah,Kira is the best.Go Kira!!!!!
Anyway I like this two character especially their MS.Destiny & Freedom rocks!!!!

[srb]

Originally Posted by NightMare_Hibari Kyo

the best charecter in destiny series is kira no doubt for me all the others have weak charecters in seed kira sucks but in destiny he is the best and about kira's reason of fighting i see that he has the best reason to fight for not like shin fighting hos hometown and not knowing alot about the world before joining zaft and about the gap of powers between kira and shin its a large gap the first time shin destroyed the freedom was because kira remimmbering himself he was like shin doesnt know what to fight for so that didnt make him focus in battel u know kira soft hearted to others so the proof is the end even athuran beated shin and fast so kira can do so too i dont care about close range combat and range i see kira as they say the ultimate coordinator so the word ultimate means good at everything and i would like to say again he has the best reason to fight to stop world war and help everyine not like the stupid shin fights without thinking of anything btw i hate him when he fights keep yelling lol and i liked when athuran showed him his place with that slap anyway sry off topic thats what i have to say

This may very well be the best post I have ever seen, it exemplifies just so much.

[lubczyk]

Originally Posted by srb

This may very well be the best post I have ever seen, it exemplifies just so much.

I think he's saying that "Might makes right." Therefore Kira is right, because he is the strongest character.