The Novel and Manga of Haruhi Suzumiya

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by dragon4dudes

Well, the theory makes sense assuming the normal all events have a cause. Mikuru dragged Kyon back in time because she was ordered to. Another question arises, why was she ordered to return back in time? Was it because it was destined? Or was it to create a change in the order of events, as you mentioned? Let's assume it was to create a change. Then would Mikuru have existed in the first present as she does in the second present?

It's also possible that the alternate universe that Nagato created was actually the first instance of the universe that the SOS Brigade exists in. Haruhi chose Kouyouen High because it was the very best, or something like that. In some way shape or form, time travel came about. As they tested, they disturbed the flow of time and altered the events, all history, etc. in which it said the Haruhi instead attended North High to meet with Kyon (under alias of John Smith). As a result, Mikuru was dispatched to the current universe. It's an interesting theory, I just came up with it, lol....

As Yuki stated, Mikuru's objective in the current time is to make sure that the future progresses as normal. She must make sure that certain events happen (within an acceptable range) so that the future is stable. It was pre-determined that she take Kyon back to Tanabata so that the young Haruhi meets John Smith, so Mikuru had no choice but to take him back under her orders. That's shows why she was so worried he would say no when she asked. If he had said no, then he probably would've been forced to do so otherwise Mikuru would cease to exist due to a lack of future.

[dragon4dudes]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

As Yuki stated, Mikuru's objective in the current time is to make sure that the future progresses as normal. She must make sure that certain events happen (within an acceptable range) so that the future is stable. It was pre-determined that she take Kyon back to Tanabata so that the young Haruhi meets John Smith, so Mikuru had no choice but to take him back under her orders. That's shows why she was so worried he would say no when she asked. If he had said no, then he probably would've been forced to do so otherwise Mikuru would cease to exist due to a lack of future.

First, my previous post was in response to kazewa.... It kinda builds off of it in an attempt to both play devil's advocate and support it (I suppose.) There was a missing link between Haruhi-one and Haruhi-two.

Let's start off by assuming that Haruhi did not randomly figure out the formula for time travel. And let's assume that Haruhi would only be able to do this at North High with her god-like powers. And let's assume a world where Haruhi never actually met John Smith and actually never had god power. And let's assume that time travel is possible in said world. (That's a lot of assumptions...) We could say that this world is the alternate universe as described in the Disappearance, excluding the fact that Kyon knew it was the alt!universe and such.

So one day some random person (doesn't matter who really), finds a really primitive time travel algorithm and tests it. It is possible that by messing with time travel, all of causality is blown and well, almost everything is altered. Everything now becomes like normal Haruhiverse. This means that the future must send Mikuru back in time to intervene and stabilize the future. Also means full powered Haruhi. And Kyon and Mikuru time travel to meet with Haruhi. Or rather let Haruhi meet John Smith and sister.

Well, normal causation is just blown apart as things that happen in the future change the past significantly. Not the normal, past change future.

[ijuinkun]

Originally Posted by kazewa

It’s kinda hard to accept if he transferred the god-power to Sasaki when Kyon has yet to meet Haruhi, and he wasn’t even the one who awakened the god-power within 3-years-younger-Haruhi. Now, I’m thinking that the god-power, from the moment it awakened and possessed by Haruhi, always possessed by Haruhi, up to the last volume (9). So what the Sasaki crew trying to do (well, maybe excluding Sasaki) is (along the line of) stealing Haruhi’s power, for god-knows-what-reason (only if that’s right).

I think that Sasaki and the Anti-SOS-Dan are partially Haruhi's creations. Essentially, Haruhi wished to have an "arch-enemy" who could theoretically match her move-for-move and against whom she could have a huge epic battle. Thus, her subconscious power took Kyon's old girlfriend (i.e. Haruhi's greatest rival for possession of Kyon), and made her into a potential "goddess" with her own Closed Spaces and such, and then surrounded her with "dark" versions of all of Haruhi's own factions (Espers, Time Travelers, Aliens).

[kazewa]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

I think that Sasaki and the Anti-SOS-Dan are partially Haruhi's creations. Essentially, Haruhi wished to have an "arch-enemy" who could theoretically match her move-for-move and against whom she could have a huge epic battle. Thus, her subconscious power took Kyon's old girlfriend (i.e. Haruhi's greatest rival for possession of Kyon), and made her into a potential "goddess" with her own Closed Spaces and such, and then surrounded her with "dark" versions of all of Haruhi's own factions (Espers, Time Travelers, Aliens).

Interesting. But, even if from Haruhi's perspective, Kyon met her first then met Sasaki second, but Haruhi didn't know it was Kyon. So, basically, even from Haruhi's perspective, Kyon met Sasaki first, and met Haruhi 2nd. If it's like that, then I think it's kinda 'off' for Haruhi to create arch-rival for Kyon, because she only met Kyon after Kyon met Sasaki first
EDIT: oh, I forgot how great Haruhi's power is. She could thinking of arch-rival for Kyon after she met Kyon in North High and became fond of him, then altered / changed, or even made a new world where Kyon met Sasaki in his past. (and before Haruhi thinking of arch-rival. Kyon never met Sasaki). So, it's still possible that Sasaki and her crew are all nothing but a creation by Haruhi's power.


Well, except if my speculation before:

Originally Posted by kazewa

Haruhi met John Smith. She then had subconscious wish to meet again with John Smith. Her god power granted that wish unconsciously, in contradiction of her logical thinking "even if John is a high schooler in North High, he would already graduated when I enter North High". That's why, Kyon chose North High, and met Haruhi. Maybe the very first class seating, the impulse for Kyon to took the initiative to talk to Haruhi, also the works of that power. Of course, Haruhi took a liking with Kyon, and she 'forgot' her wish about John Smith.

true, then she 'created' Sasaki in the 1st place as arch-rival for 'John Smith', whom is Kyon.
Edit;Note: if Sasaki and crew are indeed not original

Originally Posted by dragon4dudes

Well, the theory makes sense assuming the normal all events have a cause. Mikuru dragged Kyon back in time because she was ordered to. Another question arises, why was she ordered to return back in time? Was it because it was destined? Or was it to create a change in the order of events, as you mentioned? Let's assume it was to create a change. Then would Mikuru have existed in the first present as she does in the second present?

It's also possible that the alternate universe that Nagato created was actually the first instance of the universe that the SOS Brigade exists in. Haruhi chose Kouyouen High because it was the very best, or something like that. In some way shape or form, time travel came about. As they tested, they disturbed the flow of time and altered the events, all history, etc. in which it said the Haruhi instead attended North High to meet with Kyon (under alias of John Smith). As a result, Mikuru was dispatched to the current universe. It's an interesting theory, I just came up with it, lol....

Hmm, wasn't Haruhi in the altered world chose Kouyouen because her teacher (was he / she Haruhi's homeroom teacher) (something like)'pestering' her to?
Well, here's the possibilities:
'Our Haruhi' (the one from the time frame we usually watched) chose North High. Whether she ever met John Smith in the past or not, she chose North High. Assuming she met John Smith (possibility a), she chose North High. Assuming she didn't meet John Smith (possibility b), she chose Niorth High
Haruhi from the altered world. She did meet John Smith, and yet she didn't chose North High.

a) Now, if both Haruhi met John Smith, they still chose different high school in the end.
a-i) If Yuki also needed to arrange Haruhi in the altered world so she didn't enroll in North High, then it means if Yuki didn't arrange it, then Haruhi would, let's assume definitely, choose North High. My conclusion, the motive of Kyon and Mikuru missions to the past MAYBE wasn't only for countermeasure against event on Dec 18th. Why? Because MAYBE as the result of the meeting, Haruhi would definitely choose North High as her high school - but didn't in the end because of Yuki's interference in this possibility.
a-ii) If Yuki didn't arrange Haruhi to go to Kouyouen, but Haruhi chose Kouyouen was something happened naturally (with 2 probabilities, North High or Kouyouen, and Kouyouen was the one she chose) in the altered world, than the meeting with John Smith (which clearly occurred) could be counted had no effect because Haruhi still chose Kouyouen. My conclusion, the motive of Kyon and Mikuru missions to the past MAYBE was REALLY ONLY for countermeasure against event on Dec 18th. Why? Because the meeting didn't guarantee Haruhi would choose North High, 100%. She chose Kouyouen, right?

b) Next, if 'our Haruhi' didn't meet John Smith, and Haruhi from the altered world met John Smith (which was clear based on the movie), then would the meeting with John Smith really matter for 'going-back-to-3-years-ago-to-let-Haruhi-met-John-Smith-in-order-to-ensure-Haruhi-choose-Nirth-High-and-meet-Kyon'? Because, 'our Haruhi' enrolled in North High naturally, where 'our Haruhi' didn't meet with John Smith in her 7th grade.
My conclusion, the motive of Kyon and Mikuru missions to the past MAYBE was REALLY ONLY for countermeasure against event on Dec 18th. Why? Because even without the meeting, 'our Haruhi' chose North High. And naturally she in any previous time frame would too, except if there's any interference that needed Kyon and Asahina ensure / raise the probability to 100% with traveling to the past.

Putting aside the possibilities (a and b) and the possibilities (a-i and a-ii), there is also a question:
From what date Yuki altered the world? No, I know it's Dec 18th, but the question is not about that date. I mean, in the altered world, from what date the differences (Haruhi chose Kouyouen High, Asakura Ryoko still a student in North High, Taniguchi never had a girlfriend, etc) started from? Only from Dec 18th? Or from July 7th before Kyon and Haruhi met John Smith, or even later / before that?
1) If only from Dec 18th, than that means, Haruhi was a North High student before Yuki altered and made Haruhi as a Kouyouen student.
Whether the altered world was the same world (but altered by Yuki) or a parallel world (which born on Dec 18th and had it's own time frame, separating itself with the original world), then that means, the Haruhi in the altered world was THE SAME with 'our Haruhi'. Meaning, our Haruhi DID MEET John Smith (because we know Haruhi in the altered world DID MEET John Smith). That means, MAYBE because as the result of the meeting, Haruhi (already) chose North High as her high school - but altered by Yuki and she became a Kouyouen student on Dec 18th (while she was still a North High student on Dec 17th). That means, the motive of Kyon and Mikuru missions to the past MAYBE wasn't only for countermeasure against event on Dec 18th.
2) If from July 7th before Kyon and Haruhi met John Smith, then next question arise. Parallel world, or the same world but altered? Because if it's the same world but altered, than that means, 'our Haruhi' (which altered so she wasn't really 'our Haruhi') definitely MET John Smith, based on the movie. If parallel world, then we're back to the two possibilities (possibility a and possibility b).

Ugh, it's been to complex and too many possibilities, so I'll stop here...

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

I think that Sasaki and the Anti-SOS-Dan are partially Haruhi's creations. Essentially, Haruhi wished to have an "arch-enemy" who could theoretically match her move-for-move and against whom she could have a huge epic battle. Thus, her subconscious power took Kyon's old girlfriend (i.e. Haruhi's greatest rival for possession of Kyon), and made her into a potential "goddess" with her own Closed Spaces and such, and then surrounded her with "dark" versions of all of Haruhi's own factions (Espers, Time Travelers, Aliens).

A fun theory (and one bandied about a number of times already, at least once by me and probably before me) but it's not good to think too much into it, or else you start wondering when exactly "original" Sasaki became "powered" Sasaki, or if "powered" Sasaki ever was "original", or if there even was an "original" outside of Kyon and Kunikida's memories...

That way lies madness. Or at least TL;DR...

[s07195]

Sorry to break the madness, but are there any scans of Surprise?
I know I've been pestering about it for some time, so this will be the last time I ask...
(goes back to lurking...)

[keri]

Originally Posted by s07195

Sorry to break the madness, but are there any scans of Surprise?
I know I've been pestering about it for some time, so this will be the last time I ask...
(goes back to lurking...)

Doesn't the Sneaker go on sale on the 30th? I'm not really sure how we're going to get scans of Surprise before then...

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by s07195

Sorry to break the madness, but are there any scans of Surprise?
I know I've been pestering about it for some time, so this will be the last time I ask...
(goes back to lurking...)

No scans, but how about a real poster?

(Spring! The return of Haruhi!)

Credit to Akibablog for the picture.

[Tyabann]

They still aren't saying "the end of Haruhi", which is a good sign.

Then again, Kadokawa loves to withhold pertinent information...

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

They still aren't saying "the end of Haruhi", which is a good sign.

Then again, Kadokawa loves to withhold pertinent information...

Damn, Kaisos... I don't know who's the bigger wet blanket, you or that DBZ-named feller a-stirrin' up trouble over in the movie review thread. At least he's doom and gloom and deflation all the time. You build up first, so the fall is bigger... ^_^

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Damn, Kaisos... I don't know who's the bigger wet blanket, you or that DBZ-named feller a-stirrin' up trouble over in the movie review thread. At least he's doom and gloom and deflation all the time. You build up first, so the fall is bigger... ^_^

I only do this because hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, and I don't trust Kadokawa after last summer, heh.

I'd like to say that "there's no way they'll build this up and then just end it", but I would have said "there's no way they'd run eight episodes back-to-back of the same thing, driving away literally half the fanbase" before the 'occurrence' too.

So I think i can be forgiven a little.

[Khu]

I think Tanigawa might have dried up all his stuff on Haruhi, considering it's been how long?

Maybe he's had this all up his sleeve. :>

[Leo Keichi]

I remember reading somewhere that Tanigawa already had various new stories written for Haruhi, saved in his computer (I even imagined some hacker invading his house and stealing his PC because of that, lol).

It looks like this long hiatus on the novels is because of some order for Kadokawa, who told him to wait a bit until some of the novels were animated. Haruhi is still a very famous series, so I believe it won't be ending anywhere soon. Tanigawa could keep on writing new novels forever for this, if he wants.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Leo Keichi

I remember reading somewhere that Tanigawa already had various new stories written for Haruhi, saved in his computer (I even imagined some hacker invading his house and stealing his PC because of that, lol).

It looks like this long hiatus on the novels is because of some order for Kadokawa, who told him to wait a bit until some of the novels were animated. Haruhi is still a very famous series, so I believe it won't be ending anywhere soon. Tanigawa could keep on writing new novels forever for this, if he wants.

That, or he's been stuck trying to think up ways to continue the series while avoiding the issue of Haruhi x Kyon, or Kyon x anybody. There are only so many variations of "Haruhi drags the SOS-dan into stuff. Haruhi causes weird things to happen. Nagato Ex Machina/Mikuru time-travel hijinks. Koizumi gets all moody about being left out/Koizumi spews incomprehensible explanation. Kyon snarks through the whole thing. Status quo is still God. The End," that can be done, after all.

[pagan poor]

Well, status quo will have to end at some point. Isn't this Mikuru's last year in high school?

[ultimatemegax]

Originally Posted by pagan poor

Well, status quo will have to end at some point. Isn't this Mikuru's last year in high school?

Starting with novel 9, the stories will take place in the final year Mikuru can stay at North High as a student. Since there are no details about education in her future, we cannot assume that she will not go to a high school in the future after she returns.

Edit:
Also a reminder: Since the first part of the next novel comes out next week in Japan, there will be people trying to put out "spoilers." I'd like to remind everyone to take anything you hear about the story before next Friday with a heavy grain of salt as there may be people putting out fake information.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by pagan poor

Well, status quo will have to end at some point. Isn't this Mikuru's last year in high school?

Her "older sister" could always come in as a new teacher, and be the faculty advisor for the SOS-Dan... ^_^

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I only do this because hope is the first step on the road to disappointment, and I don't trust Kadokawa after last summer, heh.

I'd like to say that "there's no way they'll build this up and then just end it", but I would have said "there's no way they'd run eight episodes back-to-back of the same thing, driving away literally half the fanbase" before the 'occurrence' too.

So I think i can be forgiven a little.

I keep reading about fans leaving Haruhi in forums and the like... but where are the numbers? Judging by ticket sales and overall dvd sales... I'm failing to see how "fans are leaving the series."

Oh and if those "fans" are the ones that don't pay and support the series... then good riddance, you were never a fan to begin with.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Damn, Kaisos... I don't know who's the bigger wet blanket, you or that DBZ-named feller a-stirrin' up trouble over in the movie review thread. At least he's doom and gloom and deflation all the time. You build up first, so the fall is bigger... ^_^

Haha, I just love how the name and disposition of the actual character and the one on this forum reflect each other.

Sure, go ahead and look down on the inferior monkey-boys... but really you fail to understand your own ignorance... you can't see whats in front of you because your nose is always pointed in the air and you keep looking down on people... because clearly you are the superior being... and don't worry about it... those monkey-boys will just go ahead and save you and the universe asking nothing in return.

At least the original character learned something and humbled up in the end.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by ac195

I keep reading about fans leaving Haruhi in forums and the like... but where are the numbers? Judging by ticket sales and overall dvd sales... I'm failing to see how "fans are leaving the series."

It completely drove away casual fans. You should have seen the traffic around here when BLR aired. All of that went away when it became clear that E8 wasn't going to be ending anytime soon, and it never came back, even when Sighs started airing.

And let's not even begin to talk about the sheer amount of vitriol directed at the series from everywhere but this particular subforum...

Originally Posted by ac195

Oh and if those "fans" are the ones that don't pay and support the series... then good riddance, you were never a fan to begin with.

This is a bullshit argument. You're basically telling me I can't like something unless I pay money for it. You're saying that I have to pay to get feelings of enjoyment from doing something.

Isn't there anything a bit wrong with that?

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

It completely drove away casual fans. You should have seen the traffic around here when BLR aired. All of that went away when it became clear that E8 wasn't going to be ending anytime soon, and it never came back, even when Sighs started airing.

And let's not even begin to talk about the sheer amount of vitriol directed at the series from everywhere but this particular subforum...

Yeah... because clearly everything that is posted on the "internet" directly reflects the state of the "fandom."

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

This is a bullshit argument. You're basically telling me I can't like something unless I pay money for it. You're saying that I have to pay to get feelings of enjoyment from doing something.

Isn't there anything a bit wrong with that?

Yeah... it's just the real fan are the ones actually giving back and supporting the series...

Bottom line: No paying fans = No more Haruhi = No more "casual fans." = Casual fans don't matter...

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for internet distribution/fansubs and the like. I know for a fact that my shelf would be pretty bare without those resources. But, if you truly enjoyed a series... why wouldn't you pay for it if it's available to you in your region?

Bottom line: You don't think it's worth the money = You don't think too highly of the series = You aren't a fan.