[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Bluemail

If she didn't plan to use the bomb, why the message bottles? If she did plan to use it, why the mystery game? Clair says she gave everything up to fate. So if nobody solves the mystery or the epitaph, then boom. Something's still wrong with that, and I was supposed to say something but don't remember anymore.

I was thinking that the plan to bomb was someone else's and that she simply accepted that would happen. For one reason or another she goes along with it or submits to it.

However, she then still does her own things, like the fake murder mystery for Battler's sake and the message bottles, knowing that in the end she won't survive.

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by Kealym

I always assumed the certainty was the secret gold - it was described as a powerful magic that made people do anything you wanted them to, I believe. It's an assurance that Yasu can pretty much buy out anybody's cooperation.

Forgive me, but most of what you're saying here is pretty much repeating things we were blatantly told in EP7 or TIPS or something.


On an unrelated note, I've had a few thought lately:

(1). Lambda saying that Beato "really knows what it means to be the main character" in EP6. While of course this refers to her theatricality and penchant for dramatics, I suddenly thought "Does Beato in the Meta-World aso know that she's a character in the story WE'RE reading?" More meta, mind blown, etc.

About the gold being compared to Lambda's power, it is a good observation, but I remember it was said that Lambdadelta made Beato a temporary witch for two days, which she then expanded to infinity. So I guess the gold isn't actually what's referred to in the text, as it has been around longer. Same could be said about the bomb as well... So anything except the typhoon which lasts two days?

And about repeating things, you are of course forgiven, as I do realize it myself. I guess I was trying to use some things as lead-ups to speculation, but I'll try to cut down the futilities.

Beatrice knowing she's in a story is probably most easily explained if the meta-world is part of the message bottle narratives (I think it is implied to be). Which is not many steps away from us.


Could the final letter in EP1 that is only read by Natsuhi be about "the man from 19 years ago"/Lion? It might explain Natsuhi not wanting to disclose it to others and facing the one who "claims to succeed the Ushiromiya family" alone. And the bloody handmarks on Natsuhi's door in both EP1 and 2? They could be an extra prank by Yasu to show her hatred towards Natsuhi for throwing her to such fate. Little hints of Natsuhi's involvement early on? Difficulties with having a child, Fukuin being an orphanage for children abandoned by their parents...

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Bluemail

Beatrice knowing she's in a story is probably most easily explained if the meta-world is part of the message bottle narratives (I think it is implied to be). Which is not many steps away from us.

The question is, why would the meta-world be included in the message bottle narratives? It pretty much makes no sense at several points of the story.
I think it was more or less a nod to how we are placed on the same level as witches like Featherine during the story, seeing the whole event like a play and not as a real life tragedy.

Could the final letter in EP1 that is only read by Natsuhi be about "the man from 19 years ago"/Lion? It might explain Natsuhi not wanting to disclose it to others and facing the one who "claims to succeed the Ushiromiya family" alone. And the bloody handmarks on Natsuhi's door in both EP1 and 2? They could be an extra prank by Yasu to show her hatred towards Natsuhi for throwing her to such fate.

That Natsuhi faced the man from 19 years ago/Lion at the end of EP1 is pretty clear I think. She comments how she would have never wanted to believe that somebody like that actually existed and how this duel would decide who would truly inherit the title of head of the Ushiromiya family.
It's quite possible that either the handprints on the door were a way to punish Natsuhi for abandoning her as a child or maybe it truly was just an act to keep the charade of an actuall witch going...

[AuraTwilight]

Did Battler ever see that door, by the way? It might be a total Fantasy.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kealym

Again, although we use the word "personalities" as shorthand, I don't think that's very ... accurate. As you say, they're more like "roles" or "characters" - otherwise you might say something like "Sakutarou is one of Maria's personalities", and that's just NO.

Why? Sakutaro's a character isn't he? Just one Maria created instead?

This TIP has been used to support Shkanon in the past.

The beloved furniture of the witch of Mariage Sorciere, Lady MARIA. His existence is Lady MARIA's white heart itself. You could even say that he is another Lady MARIA and he is an irreplaceable existence to her.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Did Battler ever see that door, by the way? It might be a total Fantasy.

Basically every Episode among the first 4 is highly doubtable in that department.
Let's consider what Battler, considering he is claimed to be the detective and therefore he cannot perceive wrongly, actually saw:

Episode 1:

Spoiler for for length:

• Battler travels to Niijima with his father and Kyrie and meets with his relatives (Eva, Hideyoshi, George, Rosa and Maria) at the airport. On the boat he meets Jessica and Kumasawa.
  
• Maria has a fit on the boat, commenting how the shrine on a cliff near Rokkenjima is now supposedly missing. Kumasawa comments on this but is stopped mid-sentence by Jessica when she wants to start about the witch-legend.
  
• Gohda welcomes them at the shore and they are brought to the rosegarden, where Maria finds "her rose" and they meet Kanon.
  
• The cousins (Battler, George, Jessica and Maria) head over to the guesthouse where Battler is then introduced to Shannon who appears to call them for lunch.
  
• Back at the mansion Battler's attention is drawn to the portrait of Beatrice and the epitaph and he is told not to destroy Maria's belief in witches by George, Jessica and Shannon.
  
• At lunch Kinzô is not present and Krauss says that, though he tried, their father threw a fit and would not leave his study.
  Battler also meets with Dr. Nanjo or the first time during this conference.
  Shannon is behaving clutzy while serving tea and Natsuhi becomes angry because it gives Eva a chance to tease her.
  
• On the way back to the guesthouse (apparently together with George, Jessica and Maria) Battler notices some strange parts in the epitaph about killing.
  
• The cousins have a picknick at the beach together with Shannon, where they talk about the hidden gold and the epitaph as a way to find it. They decide to decipher it for fun.
  Maria get's angry when Battler does not show believe in Beatrice and is supported by Shannon who tells the legend of Beatrice as the nightly ruler of Rokkenjima and one who punishes those who don't believe.
  Jessica and Battler get talismans against evil spirits.
  
• Because of the weather they head back to the mansion. Shannon hurries because she has a workshift.
  Maria finds her rose missing and insists on searching for it. Rosa appears and gets angry at Maria for behaving like an infant. George asks them all to leave that matter to Rosa and Maria.
  
• Battler stays in their room in the guesthouse with Jessica and George until Kanon arrives searching for Maria. They accompany him to the rosegarden where they meet a hysterical Rosa.
  They find Maria, cowered under an umbrella near a rosebed and bring her inside.
  
• During dinner everybody present (The parents, the cousins, Shannon, Kumasawa and Gohda) is shocked when they hear that Maria insists that she got the umbrella from Beatrice.
  At the end of dinner she confronts the family with a letter, apparently written by somebody who claims to be Kinzô's personal alchemist who calls herself Beatrice the Golden Witch.
  
• While the parents rush away to meet with Kinzô (who is portrayed as being served dinner by Shannon), Battler, George and Jessica wait in the parlour (with Jessica storming out after a harsh comment), while Maria is somewhere else (portrayed as crying in front of the portrait).
  
• Battler (alone in the parlor) is joined by Kyrie with whom he talks about the recent developments and she introduces her theory that it is rather impossible for that Beatrice to not be among the 18 people that are said to be on the island.
  Rudolph joins them and seems rather gloomy. He says that Battler should go to the guesthouse but that he has something to confess to him once this night is over, but he assumes that he will be killed tonight.
  
• Battler meets Jessica, George, Maria and Rosa in the hallway. They decide to head to the guesthouse and Rosa asks them to take care of Maria. Rosa stays at the mansion.
  
• They head over to the guesthouse together with Shannon, who tells about her special relationship with Kanon.
  At the guesthouse she vanishes into the servants room.
  
• Shannon arrives at the cousins room and asks to talk to George. Battler is filled in about their relationship by Jessica. George and Shannon leave.
  
• They 3 cousins (Maria is sleeping) are playing trump until after midnight.
  
• Sometime after 6am Battler is woken up by Maria jumping up and down on him. She seems worried because Rosa is not in her room and so the cousins decide to head to the mansion on their own.
  
• In the parlour they meet with Eva, Hideyoshi, Natsuhi, Nanjo and Genji who all seem upset because Krauss, Rudolph, Rosa, Kyrie, Gohda and Shannon are missing and no breakfast is prepared.
  
• Kanon comes in and says that there are some strange things going on in the rosegarden. Genji, Kanon, Eva and Hideyoshi leave to check it out, but when Battler wants to go with them he is stopped by Maria. Natsuhi has dissappeared to prepare tea.
  
• Genji comes back into the parlour and informs Nanjo about something. The doctor appears alarmed and runs off. On their way out they meet Natsuhi who seems shocked as well, so the cousins decide to run after them.
  
• At the shed in the garden they find Natsuhi in tears and forbidding them to go inside. The cousins force their way to the entrance and see 5 corpses (Krauss, Rudolph, Kyrie, Rosa and Gohda - identified mostly by their clothes) inside.
  
• George asks if there are only 5 corpses and Hideyoshi and Kanon in the back say that there is a 6th one.
  
• Returning to the parlour they find Maria in front of the TV. Natsuhi leaves together with Eva to inform Kinzô about the murders (as she says). Kumasawa comes running inside and tells them about blood in the dining room.
  
• The cousins, Nanjo, Kanon and Hideyoshi check out the dining room and definitely find some blood on the floor, though not as much as implied by the injuries on the corpses.
  
• Back in the parlour Maria and Jessica get into an argument. Genji appears to inform everybody that the telephones are dead. Everybody is gathered in the parlour again and Eva also let's it slip that Kinzô is gone.
  
• Natsuhi, Genji, Kumasawa and Kanon leave to check on Kinzo's whereabouts and to search for something to defend themselves.
  
• Eva talks to Battler about theories regarding the murder. Maria shows exceptional talent in recognizing the magic circle which was supposedly found on the door of the shed.
  
• Natsuhi and the servants reappear. Natsuhi has gotten hold of a gun which she apparently found among Kinzô's collection (it is even recognized by Eva).
  
• After a while they family members stay in the parlour and the servants disappear. When Battler leaves for the bathroom, he stumbles upon them in the kitchen while Kanon is talking about how Natsuhi should have been killed instead of Shannon.
  They tell Battler that their Mistress Beatrice "exists" and that though she has neither form nor body she is among them. They are backed up by Maria who suddenly appears.
  
• Everyone gathers in the parlour again and Battler assumes that this is not only a simple murder, but a planned mass murder of all of the Ushiromiya members.
  
• Eva and Natsuhi get into an argument over how Kinzô could not have vanished from his room after the time Natsuhi first went in there because of a trick that Eva used.
  The argument escalates until Jessica has an asthma attack. After this Eva and Hideyoshi decide to retreat to their room in the mansion. The servants also scatter around the mansion again.
  
• Natsuhi asks Genji to call for Eva and Hideyoshi, because it is safer in a group. He is also ordered to take Kanon along.
  
• Battler arrives at Eva's and Hideyoshi's room together with the other cousins and finds Eva on the bed with a stake stuck into her forehead and a strange symbol painted on the door (I think it's never made clear if he is able to notice Hideyoshi).
  
• Maria is commenting on a terrible odor which then everybody notices. They split up and Battler stays with Natsuhi, George, Jessica and Maria.
  Maria is telling Battler how he shouldn't be affraid and that he should just believe in Beatrice's magic.
  
• After a scream by Kumasawa is heard they rush to the basement where they find a bloodsoaked Kanon in the boilerroom, apparently barely alive. Battler is keen on finding the culprit and heads towards an open door in the back to the outside.
  He finds nothing though and is consoled by Natsuhi who swears to protect them all.
  
• Back in the boilerroom Kanon, Jessica and Nanjo (and apparently George) are gone. But Genji is showing them a burnt corpse (with a stake in it's forehead) which he apparently just removed from the furnace. The corpse is identified as Kinzô by it's additional toes.
  Battler talks to Maria who stays a bit behind and she says how everything is going well, how they will all be joined in the Golden Land and how she yearns for that day.
  
• They find Jessica, George and Nanjo distraught in front of the servants room. It appears Kanon has died and the information is not questioned by anyone.
  They discuss where it could be save and Genji says that they should all gather in Kinzô's study.
  
• In Kinzo's study they learn about how it was Kinzo's wish to revive Beatrice and how there was a rumor he had a secret lovechild.
  A new letter turns up, which is noticed by Maria and Natsuhi accuses someone among the servants or Maria of being responsible. He bans them all from the study.
  
• A call comes in and they hear the faint singing of Maria. They all rush down to the parlour and after letting George check if it was locked they unlock the door and bust in, finding Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa dead and Maria facing the wall and singing.
  
• Maria is questioned and says how it was Beatrice who told her to face the wall and sing, which makes Battler angry.
  Suddenly they notice Natsuhi gone with a letter they saw in the room earlier. They try to leave but find the door to be barred.
  
• Busting the door open, they hear a gunshot from the entrance hall. There they find Natsuhi lying on the floor in front of Beatrice's painting, gripping her still smoking gun and being shot in the head.
  They panic and Maria comments on how it is almost midnight and how the door to the golden land will open. Then the clock strikes midnight and golden butterflies dance around...

Well...at least Episode 1 gave us some things, even though I think it shows how the central elements are never really under supervision of the detective.
It's not as bad as Episode 4, which basically has Battler in one room during most of the game, but still it shows that we definitely need to consider what we are shown, even in the non-detective scenes.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Did Battler ever see that door, by the way? It might be a total Fantasy.

Not in episode 1. He does in the next episode though.

[rogerpepitone]

I think Natsuhi does mention the door at one point, though.

[Kealym]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Why? Sakutaro's a character isn't he? Just one Maria created instead?

This TIP has been used to support Shkanon in the past.

Well I'll be adarned - I somehow missed that.
I guess what I meant was, I doubt Yasu literally has clinical DID or whatever. Of course, I don't claim to know much about DID, but I feel pretty confident that Yasu still holds her own mental reigns over these ... people of variable existence.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kealym

I guess what I meant was, I doubt Yasu literally has clinical DID or whatever. Of course, I don't claim to know much about DID, but I feel pretty confident that Yasu still holds her own mental reigns over these ... people of variable existence.

Well I pretty much completely agree with that.

[AuraTwilight]

Indeed. Ontop of it, she has complete memory of what all her identities do, and, well, someone with DID can't just rewrite their characters as if they were characters.

[ndqanh_vn]

Indeed. Ontop of it, she has complete memory of what all her identities do, and, well, someone with DID can't just rewrite their characters as if they were characters.

Indeed, is role-playing, not DID.

But whether it is DID or not, we cannot deny the truth that Yasu mind is pretty fucked up.

[Bluemail]

Originally Posted by haguruma

The question is, why would the meta-world be included in the message bottle narratives? It pretty much makes no sense at several points of the story.
I think it was more or less a nod to how we are placed on the same level as witches like Featherine during the story, seeing the whole event like a play and not as a real life tragedy.

That Natsuhi faced the man from 19 years ago/Lion at the end of EP1 is pretty clear I think. She comments how she would have never wanted to believe that somebody like that actually existed and how this duel would decide who would truly inherit the title of head of the Ushiromiya family.
It's quite possible that either the handprints on the door were a way to punish Natsuhi for abandoning her as a child or maybe it truly was just an act to keep the charade of an actuall witch going...

I wonder what explains Beato's behaviour in EP3 if there's no meta-world, as then there's no Meta-Battler to show good habits to. It would seem quite non-sensical. Unless Beatrice goes to the humans' side because she has lost her position as the Golden Witch, or in the message bottle narrative, there's just Beatrice in the start and Eva-Beatrice in the end, with no interference from Beatrice during the last events.

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Indeed, is role-playing, not DID.

But whether it is DID or not, we cannot deny the truth that Yasu mind is pretty fucked up.

I agree, unless someone says she was crazy from the get-go and brought it upon herself.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Bluemail

I wonder what explains Beato's behaviour in EP3 if there's no meta-world, as then there's no Meta-Battler to show good habits to. It would seem quite non-sensical. Unless Beatrice goes to the humans' side because she has lost her position as the Golden Witch, or in the message bottle narrative, there's just Beatrice in the start and Eva-Beatrice in the end, with no interference from Beatrice during the last events.

Well, there are two things I would consider about EP3.
1) It was written by somebody else and is already among the narratives that were created out of the two bottle letters that reached the shore.
2) We have to look if there are actually any passages which are impossible to include without the meta-world. I think there are actually pretty few of those, because Beatrice's disgust with Eva-Beatrice's methods becomes clear from the start.

[LyricalAura]

Another thing to keep in mind is that EP3-4's meta worlds don't make sense unless the Turn message bottle also had a meta world, since there are back-references. You could say that Hachijou tacked the meta onto Turn after the fact, but then where did she get the information about Beato's personality?

Although... Maybe something like that explains why Turn's Meta-Battler didn't observe any of the fantasy scenes until the tea party? I don't think we ever got an explanation for that bit of strangeness.

[Thanatos of Crows]

1st game, 6th-8th twilights: "The blind girl sings a song of illusion." I got the impression from the original wording that Maria's singing itself was the illusion, namely that she wasn't actually singing continuously between the phone call and when everyone burst into the room.

The illusion of a closed room is as follows: The door is locked, no one could have entered. If we assume Yasu is still alive, having faked his death as Kanon by the help of Nanjo it becomes painfully simple: Yasu entered the room, acted as Beatrice, told Maria to face the wall and sing and then killed the rest, exited and locked the door.
The reason she's called blind is that Maria only recognises people by the way they act, and thinks of Beatrice as a witch who wouldn't enter the room using a key. So even though she probably saw Shanon or Kanon enter the room she was blind to this for this person acted as -and was therefore for Maria- Beatrice.

[Linkin Battler]

Originally Posted by Thanatos of Crows

The illusion of a closed room is as follows: The door is locked, no one could have entered. If we assume Yasu is still alive, having faked his death as Kanon by the help of Nanjo it becomes painfully simple: Yasu entered the room, acted as Beatrice, told Maria to face the wall and sing and then killed the rest, exited and locked the door.
The reason she's called blind is that Maria only recognises people by the way they act, and thinks of Beatrice as a witch who wouldn't enter the room using a key. So even though she probably saw Shanon or Kanon enter the room she was blind to this for this person acted as -and was therefore for Maria- Beatrice.

On the contrary I think the illusion does not refer to the closed room (that is not even a closed room, since there are many passpartout free all over the house and also, Maria has no problems in seeing Shannon or Kanon in place of Beatrice, since Beatrice can "take control of them" as said from Maria to Will in EP7), but -as textually said- to Maria's song. In fact many people think that the purpose of the phone call is to let the people hear Maria's singing voice, but I do not, for two main reasons: (1) Natsuhi absolutely does not want to answer the phone and when Battler says "if you don't do, I'm gonna do it", she doesn't let him do it and does it himself and (2) because Natsuhi spend a long time saying "hello, hello". My opinion is that the 19 years ago ago child (Shkanontrice) treated Natsuhi through the phone (obliging her -through a blackmail- to say hello as if she doesn't hear nothing) and that is why Natsuhi after went out of the parlor and got killed. Maria's song is nothing but an illusion thought to blackmail and kill Natsuhi and make the people in Kinzo's study come out.
This thank to Natsuhi's afraidness about Jessica knowing the truth about the 19 years ago child and so on.

[Kealym]

I think you guys are over-complicating a simple room, as the solution has been readily apparent since Lambda's red's at the end of EP4. Well, I'd say it's definitely among the easiest from Beato's game's.

"Illusion of the blind girl's song". So either her 'blindness' or the song was an illusion. Kanon-culprit-san enters room, asks Maria to sing, kills Gensawajo. The proposal of the above poster is way too complicated - the text said Natsuhi was hesitant, not that she fought tooth and nail against answering. She willingly handed the phone to Battler when he asked for it, and he also heard the singing. I don't see the need or purpose of recording devices, secret blackmails, etc.

The blindness is an illusion because, c'mon, "Nope, guys, I didn't hear a THING." and all that Maria-nonsense. Because it's Maria, we kinda have to believe in her sincerity, but if you really think she literally saw and heard nothing...

[Kylon99]

Was it ever declared that they were dead in the first place? I forget whether Battler did a proper close up inspection on them. I think he just kinda rushed over to Maria after a glance and they all started to question her. I don't think there was any red declaring them dead at the end of EP4 either...

So really, Maria could really have just turned around and heard nothing. Gensawajo probably just took out some slices of salami and tomato sauce, lied down and that's it.

And to keep things going, the letter is left for Natsuhi... and... who was it that notices her gone? George? ... Apparently it's George in the manga... I just checked.


Also one thing to keep in mind is Natsuhi was already recruited to act as the Key in the game, so she is in on some of the what appears to be suspicious actions throughout EP1. Although when she starts realizing that all is not going according to plan is debatable, I'd think she was in on the placing of the letter and the whole setup to get the 4 people kicked out of the study. (What the "Key" is is explained in my signature.)

I tend to think by the final shootout she started to act on her own though, though I can't be sure...

[Leafsnail]

And of course, the three were killed by other people!