2010-07-15, 23:55 | Link #3221 | ||
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Gohda wouldn't suspect Kyrie had some ulterior motive. From his own point of view, the only forbidden rooms are locked by something other the the simple lock (like Kinzo study, or where Krauss hides the gold bar). As an Ushiromya Family servant he couldn't deny a request from Kyrie, so he would just handle her the master key. Krauss would be pissed afterward, but Kyrie got what her want. Last edited by Heatth; 2010-07-16 at 00:11. |
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2010-07-16, 00:44 | Link #3225 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Brazil - São Paulo
Age: 32
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2010-07-16, 01:14 | Link #3226 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Ohhh.. d'oh. Silly me, I copy and pasted the text of the link and not the actual link.
Arghhh. EDIT: I had copy and pasted the shortened URL from the message, where they insert "..." into the text of the message. 8) I also fixed the original message now. Let me try again: The original post, a bit of a rambling one though, sorry: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...10#post2857510 That message kinda got submerged a bit until the discussion came up again: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...97#post2971597 And that went on for a page until Renall summed it up for me pretty well, and added some extra thoughts: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=6980 Last edited by Kylon99; 2010-07-16 at 01:37. |
2010-07-16, 01:39 | Link #3227 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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how many where involved in this? Hideyoshi is involved that is for sure so i do not see why the others should not be involved. How else would shkannon escape from the room if Hideyoshi was not involved. So all she had to do was saying "Kraus-san your room got an telefon and acclimatisation right? Mind if i borrow your Room." "Sure here is the key but do not look under the bed." just because it was locked does not mean that she did not have the key for it. After she talked with Jessica about love she unlocks the door, chains it and lies down. It's not like that his door key could open his Desk or whereever he keeps things.
Also, a Husband or their Children not involved? that would be more cruel and sick to them then a prank to an annoying Guest that you only met today. |
2010-07-16, 06:22 | Link #3228 | |
Endless Turnless
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Something that might be of interest that I found on my re-read of episode 6. While George is talking with Shannon, and especially the scene where he confesses the way he used to see Battler and Jessica, there are some strange sentences he says. First of all, not always, but at certain points, he uses plural. For example:
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2010-07-16, 07:49 | Link #3229 |
The Dark Crow Smiles
Join Date: Jul 2010
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My thoughts on EP6:
After reading this episode, my impression of Shannon COMPLETELY changed. I had no idea that she'd be this ruthless. The Shkanon is also impossible to ignore for any longer - if it were a fake theory, most likely Ryukishi would have addressed it earlier on in the question arcs. (Just like with the small bombs theory.) Of course, he could just be making a false lead in that respect as well. I'm just saying, there's far too much evidence for it. Now time to read what others had to say about this EP. ^_^
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2010-07-16, 08:20 | Link #3230 |
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Thank-you Kylon and Ssol who reposted the links, could open it finely now.
That Author Theory is very interesting. Specially considering Renall's thought of it. However, I believe I've found a some flaws on it premise. If I understood correctly, you, Kylon99, are saying that the story can be divided between the 1998 world (what really happened) and the world of Rokkenjima and Meta!World (message bottles and forgeries) right? The first thing we have to consider, are these stories the same we read? With all the meta scenes. Ep6 seem to imply 'yes'. However, I find it very unlikely. First, from the way these bottles were discussed, it should have a mention of Battler being the main character. I don't remember any, but of course, I may be wrong. Second, Ep4. Some meta scenes in Ep4, particularly ANGE-Beatrice are closely tied to the 'real world events' of 1998. How would Hachijo Tohya know about it? Is she writing it too? That this also can't be assumed as "real". This is particularly true about Sakutarou, who is only introduced in Maria's diary (who only Ange should know about). Third, the very first time we know about the message bottle we get to see a bit of it. Of course, that 'bit' never really appear in any game we have seem so far, which is an indication that they are not perfect reproduction of the message bottles. More important, the message bottles, as well as the forgeries, are supposed to be written by 'Ushiromiya Maria'. Yet, pretty much all of it, including the meta scenes, are written from Battlers perspective. OF course, it make sense for Beatrice to make Battler the main character, however, even if dubious, for the people of the world of 1998, it at last seem to be Maria, or someone pretending to be Maria, who wrote the tale. From what is presented to us, it is hard anyone would believe Maria is the true writer. Fourth, more important, Ange narration in Ep6. We she first appear, she mention not only her loss of memories but also knowledge of what would happen to her afterward. Latter, she ask Featherine to stop pretending and we see Hachijo becoming a witch. Of course, this also may have been written by Hachijo, however, then how she knows what Ange would do next? How she knows about Juuza? Why Ange would need to ask if Featherine is supposed to be Hachijo if this has been made already obvious in that scene? Even if it was, somehow, something Hachijo wrote, there is also the very end. Ange mention again he had no memory of that day, implying the Ange of the end is the same, or had similar thoughts, of the Ange of the beginning (who knew about the meta world and went read to Featherine). Due to these 4 points, I don't believe there is a clear division about the "Real World (1998)" and the "Fictional World (every thing else)". For this to work, we have to accept the stories of the message bottler and the forgeries are very different, even if similar (since the story is the same), from the ones we read. Anyway, I have said it before, but I believe that just assuming everything is fake sucks. I know you can still find the truth, but that is not the (single) point. Assuming everything is fake destroy the opportunity to enjoy the game as a 'romance', instead as a 'mystery' for me. I read Umineko as both a puzze game (mystery) and as a interesting fictional tale with good characters(romance), A last point about Knox, Kylon (since you briefly mention it in your theory). I've said before, but the fact the stories follow Knox don't mean they are not "real". Take the books Knox himself wrote, for example. I haven't read any, but I assume they did follow Knox (well, duh) and they were presented as "real". Of course, Umineko use Knox in a different way. Almost as a kind of magic. However, Ep6 also mentioned that in one point, remember? Erika can use her 'Detective Authority' not because this is a power granted to her by the Game Master, but because it is something her can do herself. In Ep6, even without the 'Detective Authority' she uses many of the privileges, because it is something Piece!Erika can do using her argumentation skills. Heck, she even, in a way, got all the clues to solve the mystery. Had her payed attention in the romance bits Battler showed her she could have find an answer for the 2 last Closed Rooms (and for the 17 persons riddle). Concluding, following Knox and being "real" is not mutually exclusive. The same way as being fiction and being "real" are also not mutually exclusive (in a multi-worlds context). |
2010-07-16, 08:33 | Link #3231 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Actually, there's no reason to explicitly believe that every part of 1998 that we see is a "real world" depiction of what happens in 1998-Prime, per the Author Theory. However, it is probable that the events are substantially similar. The main point is that the disaster happens, only Eva survives, Ange is raised by Eva, and she sets out to do something in 1998 which results in her apparent death (at least in the public eye).
Any actual depiction of these events may be a fictionalized account itself.
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2010-07-16, 08:39 | Link #3232 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 41
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Re: Who was in on the prank and who wasn't -- my first reaction was "they had to be all in on it, and their reactions were all faked."
However, one thing only has given me pause with this (and I'm sure others have noticed this too, I haven't gotten through this whole thread yet). And that's something Rudolf says after they've returned to the guest house, and he, Krauss, Hideyoshi, and Erika are in the sitting room (or whatever it's called). He says Now I'll never get to tell them ... or something along those lines. And it's very, very clear here to the reader that he's talking about the secret he wanted to speak to Kyrie and Battler about after the family conference (almost certainly on the topic of Battler's parentage). There's no reason he would mention something like this if he was just faking it, none at all. This isn't the sort of thing he would mention in front of others unless he really was in shock. edit: Actually, I'm going to post my tiny additions to the Author Theory in the Spoilers + Speculation thread, I think that's probably where I should have posted it. XD Last edited by June 1983; 2010-07-16 at 08:51. |
2010-07-16, 09:25 | Link #3233 | |||
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Speaking on that, can we believe in the ending scroll of Ep1? Not about the supernatural stuff, but about the reaction of the world about the incident. I noticed that, even there, there at no point it say there were no survivors and at no point it said it was actually a mass murder (just that people believe on it after reading the notebook). I so, we can say, for example, that the body of the children were not found. But Maria's jaw was. It also mention the incident was 'gruesome' (which I suppose it would be, if it was an explosion). Quote:
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Why the Author Theory should be posted in the spoiler thread? |
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2010-07-16, 09:51 | Link #3234 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Warwick, RI
Age: 41
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Here's the actual scene and what he says: This scene comes directly after Krauss asks him to think of Ange back home. Erika suggests Krauss go up to the cousins' room right after Rudolf says this. (It's also interesting that we aren't given Rudolf's sprite for this scene, but instead an atmosphere shot, but that might not mean anything at all.) |
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2010-07-16, 10:01 | Link #3235 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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6 months. I've been on Umineko hiatus for 6 months after I had given up on playing the game in Japanese after realizing the sheer amount of complexities R07 introduced constricted me and my meager Japanese skills. After learning that WH finished the patch earlier than expected, I guess I can come back and finally finish where I left off.
So yeah, I'm back. Just have to say that while I hate that bitch Erika the moment she first arrived in Ep5, what she just did to Battler in their first real fight over the first bodies was simply brilliant. She's a bitch, BUT THAT WAS WELL FUCKING PLAYED.
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2010-07-16, 10:06 | Link #3236 | |
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So, maybe, uh, Rudolf is just that good as an actor? Don't seem quite well, as you said. However, if he is not inside the prank, then it is weird he allow Kanon outside the Cousin Room. Well, if you believe in Shkannon the solution is not that hard: Rudolf knew Kanon don't really exist. Of course, so did Krauss and everyone else in the Cousin Room. They don't even need to know beforehand, they might be just told that and convinced to not tell Erika about it. This might be the meaning of Kanon's 'death'. After that day, he couldn't exist anymore because Krauss and Jessica already know it is actually Shannon. |
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2010-07-16, 10:15 | Link #3238 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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I stopped exactly before Erika entered piece Battler's murder room 6 months ago. How far am I to the end?
I still have a lot of ground to cover. I'm surprised that I managed to get almost 70% of my translations correct when I actually played it in English. I guess I'm competent enough to do it for Ep7.
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2010-07-16, 11:30 | Link #3239 | |
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The most 'out of character' I could see in that particular scene was Krauss being too willing to agree with every thing a middle schooler say. But, anyway, Krauss personality was aways inconstant, he seems very secure of himself for most part, but Episode 5 showed how he can be insecure and just let other guide him. Also, it is not like Erika was saying anything absurd. All she said was 'lets stay calm and lock ourselves'. Pretty reasonable for their situation. PP: Thinking now, I believe the character feel more unreal because we don't have as much narration for the Game Board as in the previous Episodes. That is pretty near to the end, actually. Just four more chapters and the Tea Parties. The Tea Party this time is also not that big. |
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2010-07-16, 11:45 | Link #3240 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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You misunderstood me Heatth.
I'm assuming that Rudolf and the other couldn't really fall for such a fake mass murder. It's hard to imagine how they could have been tricked. You don't even need to be a doctor to notice there's still pulse, or that someone is still breathing. So I can only explain it with Rudolf Hideyoshi and Krauss playing an act. But it's out of character for Rudolf, Hideyoshi and Krauss to be capable of acting to that extent. Not it's not actually a matter being able to, is a matter of willing to. Would really Krauss accept to make a fool of himself by playing the part of the devastated husband? Would Hideyoshi really start crying in front of everyone? This is what I meant.
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