2011-10-26, 00:53 | Link #3221 | |
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This red only say that It was impossible to do anything inside the mansion if your located outside the mansion but that doesn't restrict anyone from entering the mansion though. So when george went inside the mansion he wasn't covered by that red anymore. |
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2011-10-26, 12:54 | Link #3222 | |
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It starts with 親族会議以前に、ヱリカ、譲治、朱志香、真里亞、南條、郷田、熊沢は、屋敷より退出し、ゲストハウスへ移動 したものなり。 (Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjô, Gôda and Kumasawa withdrew from the mansion and moved over to the guesthouse.) and goes on to the argument above. Because at 12' midnight the group of those outside the mansion is defined as "Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjô, Gôda and Kumasawa". Even if for example one clock was tampered with, the time for the "outside party" would still be midnight even if it was 11:30 to those on the inside...unless somebody manipulated all clocks and watches on Rokkenjima. |
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2011-10-26, 15:52 | Link #3223 | |
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There's also still the fact that sealing ALL entrances of the Guesthouse was the VERY FIRST thing Erika did upon returning there. She only played cards with the cousins afterwards. Furthermore, if you think the motive of having the letter appear was a prank, by Shannon, to produce an impossibly mystery for Erika, from a Gameboard perspective, this is accomplished FAR more easily by just having the adults lie. This theme is reinforced, in at least in this episode, because ALL of those characters lied for Yasu later on, too. Remember, the corpses in the cousins room were impossible to misidentify, yet everyone, even Battler, just lied about it. |
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2011-10-27, 03:21 | Link #3224 | |||||||
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The red that said Quote:
My argument now is Its possible for george to leave the guest house At 12:10 the time in the dining hall at that time will be 11:45 .George still have enough time to knock and place the letter since the knock happened at 12:00 clock time. Also the Red that Lyrical said im sure was translated in english like this. Quote:
It said someone outside so if george manage to enter the mansion he's no longer affected by that red since he's now inside the mansion. Quote:
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Im sure she run this game with Certainty because that is what we see in all the Red truth that regarding the letter and knock thing. It's close to being certain that it was impossible thing for a human to achieve.But there's no such thing as 100% certainty so there must be some trick to it. But if you stop thinking and resort to more unlikable answer its the same as lambda winning and making you accept that the witch did it. Anyways, this is where i got my theory that the clock was altered.First,There's no Red that said the knock happened at 12:00 so i can doubt the time when the knock happened. The chime of the clock was very suspicious because it sound the same time as the Knock. But it can be explained with this blue the clock was used to mislead everyone in the room to make them think that the knock happened "At 24:00". Some of the Red truth was only Focused on the time " at 12:00". That in itself was suspicious. Quote:
Well my theory states that the clock in the dining hall was altered possibly 30 minutes. Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji was in the second floor At 12:00(11:30). The time in the Dining hall ,at that time, will be 11:30. We didn't know the time when Natsuhi went to her room to answer the phone call.So i'll assume that the call happened during 12:15(11:45) and also assume that george went inside the mansion at 12:10(11:40). by the way,i'll put the clock time in parenthesis and place it next to the correct time. Now with that time frame there's two possibilities i can think of. There's a possibility that george was the one That called Natsuhi and after that left a letter in front of the dining hall and knocked on the door. and another possibility was Its Yasu who called Natsuhi by phone and after that went to the Dining hall way before george knocked on the door and placed the letter in front of the dining hall. This certainly explain why the narrator said at that time the knock happened "lets go back in time a bit" |
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2011-10-27, 05:30 | Link #3225 | |||||
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She neglects to say that fully, at first, but the exchange goes something like this: Beato : Maybe Kumasawa / Godha did it! Erika : Nah, I sealed their rooms. Beato : They cousins died much earlier! Erika : Nah, I was playing cards with them until midnight. Beato : Maybe Nanjo, then! Erika : Nah, I was with the cousins before midnight, and was with Nanjo in the library until 1:00am. Beato : Someone climbed to the second floor! Erika : Nah. I should have said this earlier, but immediately after finding the gold, I sealed the entire damn guesthouse. Yeah. So, Erika's activity goes something like this :
I was slightly mistaken - Erika likely did not seal the front entrance, because her entire argument is that Natsuhi used the front entrance to commit the crime, and no abnormal seal is noted. You see the problem, though, right? At this point, you're arguing that George went to the mansion, knocked and placed the letter, and returned to the Cousins room in the Guesthouse, without being seen by anybody, all in the time it would've taken Erika to place two pieces of tape and walk upstairs. Quote:
Also, Lambda does some weird stuff in general - during the entire Court of Illusions, she never defends the Witch side, even though SHE KNOWS Erika's theory is wrong. Quote:
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This doesn't work, either - that would mean Natsuhi took the phone call in her room BEFORE she heard the clock chime midnight, and she has no reason to lie about this. I'm not sure why you're so opposed to this solution. It's pretty much the same as the riddle of the chapel door in Episode 2 : Beato said all those red truths about how one could get in or out of the chapel, but it doesn't mean anything once you notice that the chapel was never confirmed to be locked, anyway. |
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2011-10-27, 20:10 | Link #3226 | |||||||||||
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He left the guest house during the time Erika and dr. nanjo went to the library. There's a 1 hour span of time that the guest house wasn't observed by Erika so there's no risk of him being spotted at all. lets apply my theory here, Erika and Nanjo spend their time in the library during the time 12:00-1:00. The Clock at that time should be 11:30-12:30. Well the clock sound the same time as the knock so the clock time must be 12:00 and the correct time 12:30. Remember that Erika was still in the library at 12:30 when the knock happened so there's no way that she can spot him during the time she was in the library. Quote:
Did they really lied? i'll put two red truths here. Quote:
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Also i remember that Lambda refuse to say in red that the Body that was discovered are dead. So there's a possibility that they are still alive at that time. Quote:
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I don't see any plot that Yasu did (except the letter and knock thing) in the gameboard though. There was a scene where Beatrice was suprise that someone was trying to copy her and the fact that the magic circle was just a immitation confirms that. There's nothing in the game that say The adults have a watch on their hands. so i can used this red to deny that Quote:
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Ii agree, there's no way that the call happened before the knock. But there still a possibility that the call happened after the knock. Lets say after george place the letter and after he knocked on the door. Quote:
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2011-10-27, 20:39 | Link #3227 | |
The True Culprit
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I've never seen so much weaselworking to get around something so obvious, then gallop over the point using another point that hurts his own argument.
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2011-10-27, 22:58 | Link #3229 |
The True Culprit
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No, it doesn't. It only means she was part of a trick to construct an illusion. At best, it means she was an accomplice, but it by no means implicates her as the culprit.
Hell, if we go with the idea that the first twilight is always meant to be a fake murder mystery game, then all it means is that Rosa is in on the game. Then some sick fuck went in and killed those six people while they were playing dead. This also explains why they only pretended the door was locked; it's a puzzle to the cousins either way, but if it was REALLY locked....well, one of the play-actors might need to go to the bathroom, or there might be an emergency.
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2011-11-15, 01:50 | Link #3230 |
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I think i finally gets what happened in Ep5. The sound of the clock was a lie. I noticed that only the narrator was aware of the chime of the clock when they found out about the letter . Even in Natsuhi's cased the narrator was the only one who talked about it.
So with this i'll conclude that the Narrator lied about the chime of the clock so its possible that the knock happened before or even after 12:00(the time that most of the Red truth was heavily focused on) |
2011-11-15, 04:27 | Link #3232 | |
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I had the clock hypothesis, but I dropped it in favor of the "everybody is lying" hypothesis.
That said? I feel like resurrecting it. It is plausible and even likely! --- Quote:
THIS IS CHECKMATE. Kinzo was obstinate, fond of Western stuff, and intent on running a Western-style mansion. For several years after WWII, Japan used Daylight Savings Time. This ended in 1952, to the relief of many Japanese who did not like rising at dawn or pre-dawn. Hypothesis: But in Episode 5, we have a sneaky twist. In this game, Kinzo gave the order that the mansion observe DST in the Western manner. In that case, all of the mansion clocks would be ahead an hour. Would the Japanese-style guesthouse clocks be the same? Maybe, maybe not. -- The tougher problem is this: if we assume that the knock isn't a lie, then we can't go halfway here. We also have to assume that the letter being found isn't a lie. Is it possible to explain both the knock and the letter in a way that makes sense? WHO DID IT? Remember, Erika isn't allowed to lie or have unreliable narration. If we read Lambda's talk about midnight as a huge misdirection - she was talking about midnight according to sane people, not midnight according to crazy mansion clocks - then we can dodge a lot of the Red Truth. Some of the statements don't directly reference midnight, but can still be beaten by noting that they must refer to a specific time ("no one else existed in the mansion" is a lie otherwise), and that this isn't the first time we've been lied to by omission when it comes to times. What if Battler arranged for the letter to be found and made the knock? This would be an incredible victory for the Human side! Can you make it work? uV, I am sure that if you are confident in your theory and pursue it with vigor, a miracle will happen! (Edited to use the Brown Truth more carefully.) Last edited by WitchOfDoubt; 2011-11-15 at 05:04. |
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2011-11-15, 04:34 | Link #3233 | |
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Well don't you find it suspicious that most of the red truth was focused on the time 24:00. |
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2011-11-15, 04:59 | Link #3234 | |
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But the time could also be suspicious in the same way that a rotten herring, laid across a track to throw off the pursuing hounds, is suspicious. That is to say, it could be written to trick you into focusing on the time. Even so, the time theory wins on elegance, because Episode 5 would not be a fair mystery if everybody lied so much. It is not possible to have a coherent mystery novel where everyone but the detective is a liar and/or the victim and/or the culprit. |
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2011-11-15, 05:49 | Link #3235 | |
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I think George did the knock thing since he have a watch of his own. He can just adjust his watch to make it the same as the clock in the mansion. |
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2011-11-15, 14:09 | Link #3238 | |||||
The True Culprit
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2011-11-16, 02:18 | Link #3239 | |||||
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Erika also fails to comment on the other solution to the knock-and-letter problem. This is not strong evidence against it, in context. And if Battler is the culprit, well! In any case, if the DST theory is at all plausible, it is an avenue of attack. The real challenge for a "knock existed" reader lies in explaining what appears to be impossible - that a human made that knock. This is a game between uv and I, who both support the knock-existed theory, and those who would declare so many characters to be liars! Quote:
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* Just as the Blue Truth is not always written in blue, the Brown Truth is not always written in brown. * This argument is a torture that will not end until a certain person fully understands the Brown Truth. * To those who do not recognize the Brown Truth, Umineko will forever remain a maddening and impossible mystery. Now, I mentioned a scene with George in it earlier. This was the scene where he hinted that he was going to play some sort of trick on the family at Shannon's request. I don't remember exactly when it happened, so could somebody please post this scene's dialogue, preferably confirming it with the Brown Truth? |
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