[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Kylon99]

And that is true, they were eventually killed by the bomb at midnight, if they had been faking. Actually, this is pretty important then because it rules them out of the bomb plot. Although we get a red indicating they are not murderers too around that time...

That's what I'm wondering. It was... EP5 that told us the red (at least in that episode) was a midnight answer session and so it could declare people dead even though they weren't dead at the time they were faking... So I'm just applying that sort of idea here. I'm not sure Beatrice qualified just what they were talking about regarding EP1 but it seems to me that she can get away with talking about how they were eventually killed and mixing that up with things they did to look like they were killed...

[Leafsnail]

That's obviously true, but it seems horribly cheap and likely to just put Battler further away from the actual answer. Beato wanted you [Battler] to solve it, so she made this game...the riddles of this tale...solvable.

[Kylon99]

Speaking of horribly cheap... sorry, another idea came to mind. Will commented on how risky Beatrice's tricks were, like how if 'he' (I assume Battler) just did a simple investigation the whole gig could've been up.

I was thinking at first that, ok, this means that Will is noting how Beatrice likes to take risks and ... wait a minute...


If you look at it this way, when an author writes that something happened, no matter how improbable that was, it simply happened. Aliens came and abducted people. A virus broke out of L4 containment. Or a Hollywood-level disguise made it appear people had their faces blown off, simply because the detective forgot to take a closer look.

In this way, perhaps Will wasn't making a criticism about how 'risky' Beatrice's plans were (I'm sure the Rokkenjima-Prime plan was) but how her EP1-4 tricks stretch believability. And while Meta-Beatrice wasn't the true author, even on the meta-level she was considered to have formulated the games...

Basically, he was giving her a literary criticism, right?

Anyways, it was just a comment I needed to make. This is because events in a story aren't up to chance; what the author says happened, happened. It's not about the event being probable, but plausible...

[Leafsnail]

I thought it was specific to Shannon's death at the first twilight. Or possibly Kanon's at the fifth. In both cases, if Battler had gone to look at the corpse, he would've found nothing there.

[Thanatos of Crows]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I thought it was specific to Shannon's death at the first twilight. Or possibly Kanon's at the fifth. In both cases, if Battler had gone to look at the corpse, he would've found nothing there.

I always though he meant George, who Hideyoshi managed to have stay outside. He was the one who wanted to see Shannon's face the most (although Battler ptobably wanted to see his parents, too)

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Thanatos of Crows

I always though he meant George, who Hideyoshi managed to have stay outside. He was the one who wanted to see Shannon's face the most (although Battler ptobably wanted to see his parents, too)

It's quite clear that they are referring to George at this point. There are two points in the sentence that indicate this:
1) Will says 「始めから、危ういゲームだったな。」 (It had been a risky (in the sense of unreliable) game from the beginning on).　初めから (from the beginning on) indicates that he is refering to the very first part of her game which is the 1st twilight of the 1st game.
2) He also continues with 「もしもあいつが、それでも死に顔を見たいと言って踏み入っていたなら、どうしていた。」 (What if that guy, had nevertheless said that he wanted to see that face in death and stepped inside, what would have been?). The sentence clearly indicates that あいつ (that guy) had been ordered not to step inside, but the risk of him nevertheless doing so was there.

Those two things only point to Shannon's death and George's reaction to it, because George was the only one who was actually stopped from reaching the corpse of his important person.

[Thanatos of Crows]

This thank to Natsuhi's afraidness about Jessica knowing the truth about the 19 years ago child and so on.

It's pointless to use the child from 19 years ago as a basis of a theory for a mystery concerning eps1-4 as those are in itself solvable and don't require info from further episodes. So in terms of mystery the existence of the child is IRRELEVANT to the case at hand. The child is part of Yasu's backstory, which deepends the readers' understanding of the psyche of certain characters and motivates their actions (which don't need to be explained like the trap X).
Also, the calls would never occur in Beatrice's games, as her goal by the modus operandi is to make people accept the witch's existence and any such calls would go against it.

[AuraTwilight]

How do the calls go against the witch's existence? Furthermore, I wouldn't say the existence of a child is irrelevant. IT IS brought up that Beatrice and Kinzo may have had an illegitimate child multiple times, and Natsuhi does address the witch, in her EP1 showdown, as someone trying to be the successor to the family. "I didn't think...someone like you could have existed" can be taken more than one way.

[Thanatos of Crows]

Okay you could say that those calls happened in eps1-4, but we're never seen or heard about them, and as such they're not essential, you don't need them to solve the crime.

IT IS brought up that Beatrice and Kinzo may have had an illegitimate child multiple times

Yes, very true, but doesn't hint at Natsuhi throwing a baby to it's death.

and Natsuhi does address the witch, in her EP1 showdown, as someone trying to be the successor to the family. "I didn't think...someone like you could have existed" can be taken more than one way.

Yes it can, but is there a reason to suspect a child thrown off a cliff by Natsuhi in any of the first four episodes? Not really. While you can argue it's possible those things happened it's less probable when you use information which shouldn't be a part of the mystery. It's like answering a riddle by adding information of your own into it

[Renall]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Indeed, is role-playing, not DID.

But whether it is DID or not, we cannot deny the truth that Yasu mind is pretty fucked up.

I can. Batty people are not coherent enough to do all the things she's attributed with doing. Either it's nonsense, or she knows exactly what she's up to.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Another thing to keep in mind is that EP3-4's meta worlds don't make sense unless the Turn message bottle also had a meta world, since there are back-references. You could say that Hachijou tacked the meta onto Turn after the fact, but then where did she get the information about Beato's personality?

Although... Maybe something like that explains why Turn's Meta-Battler didn't observe any of the fantasy scenes until the tea party? I don't think we ever got an explanation for that bit of strangeness.

The meta-worlds themselves do not have to exist in the fiction, so long as they exist in no fiction. As an interpretive layer, they could call back on and reference each other without concern for matters of authorship or even exact tracking of the text (I still maintain End and Dawn, as written in-universe, do not derail into meta-world shenanigans, but the reading of them in ep5 and ep6 does).

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

How do the calls go against the witch's existence? Furthermore, I wouldn't say the existence of a child is irrelevant. IT IS brought up that Beatrice and Kinzo may have had an illegitimate child multiple times, and Natsuhi does address the witch, in her EP1 showdown, as someone trying to be the successor to the family. "I didn't think...someone like you could have existed" can be taken more than one way.

If she actually knew who Beatrice was, wouldn't she have phrased that differently? There's absolutely no way Natsuhi couldn't have known if the ep5 baby hypothesis has any truth to it.

There's also the problem that Beatrice, at least in ep1, doesn't seem to be claiming that role, unless it appears solely and entirely in the letter Natsuhi supposedly got that we never actually saw.

[Thanatos of Crows]

There's also the problem that Beatrice, at least in ep1, doesn't seem to be claiming that role, unless it appears solely and entirely in the letter Natsuhi supposedly got that we never actually saw.

I agree. Considering Natsuhi's short fuse the letter probably provoked her, like an offer to spare the children if they faced eachother.

I can. Batty people are not coherent enough to do all the things she's attributed with doing. Either it's nonsense, or she knows exactly what she's up to.

Assuming she's a hermaphrodite she tried to live as a man and a woman, Shannon and Kanon, thus all the love duel stuff. When she finally decided to start her game on October 4th 1986 she was just using these three personas she'd created as characters she played to hide from the relatives.

[Renall]

I still don't buy that any disguises were ever involved. Are we just ignoring what Maria says?

[Thanatos of Crows]

Some disguise would be needed if we don't consider Kanon a real person, right?

[Renall]

No disguise is needed if "Shannon and Kanon" exist independently and/or physically only in the context of fiction written by their creator (and others to follow).

[Thanatos of Crows]

So you're talking about Rokkenjima Prime now, right? I'd agree with you if other servants didn't exist (well, one can argue that the other servants not on duty on the day were fictious and didn't exist on RPrime) . But there's no indication towards Kanon not existing in 1998 which provides us with the only certain truths we can get about RPrime, so atleast to me the Kanon disguise had to be true, as no other reasonable options seem to exist.

[Renall]

There's really no evidence at all of the specifics of the servants. Ange never talks to a former servant. Nobody she does talk to has any idea either. And it would be relatively easy to misremember a servant from an event over a decade ago if a bunch of stories come out that implicitly assume their existence.

The real question would be who went to Jessica's school festival with her, as this is the sole point at which Kanon is ever depicted off Rokkenjima.

[alarmadadna hadi]

But there's no indication towards Kanon not existing in 1998 which provides us with the only certain truths we can get about RPrime

Even assuming that truly was so, the message bottles depicted worlds were eva was killed, contrary to 'reality', so their authenticity doesn't require refutation in the first place.

Kanon's relation with jessica was something that grew over the tales in a meta sense, while shannon had much more real history, not much need for Kanon to be there in RPrime.

[FirstTwilight]

I don't get why why people need to make Kanon fiction-only. It doesn't make Shkanontrice less ridicule, Yasu still has to pass as Kanon in the stories!

And there are tons of scenes with him out of the catbox, he interacted with Gohda, had been working there for 3 years and of course Jessica. It's like saying that Yasu mind controlled everyone on the island into believing Kanon always existed.

[AuraTwilight]

Okay you could say that those calls happened in eps1-4, but we're never seen or heard about them, and as such they're not essential, you don't need them to solve the crime.

Again, what calls are you talking about? If you're referencing the EP5 calls Natsuhi got, well duh. They only happened in EP5.

Yes, very true, but doesn't hint at Natsuhi throwing a baby to it's death.

Does it really matter, so long as the idea of an illegitimate Ushiromiya spawn is running around?

Yes it can, but is there a reason to suspect a child thrown off a cliff by Natsuhi in any of the first four episodes? Not really. While you can argue it's possible those things happened it's less probable when you use information which shouldn't be a part of the mystery. It's like answering a riddle by adding information of your own into it

Your argument basically breaks down, "Ah, yes, you can deduce that a blade was used to kill the victims, but can you tell me THE COLOR OF THE HANDLE?"

If she actually knew who Beatrice was, wouldn't she have phrased that differently? There's absolutely no way Natsuhi couldn't have known if the ep5 baby hypothesis has any truth to it.

There's also the problem that Beatrice, at least in ep1, doesn't seem to be claiming that role, unless it appears solely and entirely in the letter Natsuhi supposedly got that we never actually saw.

It seems to have been in the letter, since it's only afterwards that Natsuhi brings it up.

I don't get why why people need to make Kanon fiction-only. It doesn't make Shkanontrice less ridicule, Yasu still has to pass as Kanon in the stories!

And there are tons of scenes with him out of the catbox, he interacted with Gohda, had been working there for 3 years and of course Jessica. It's like saying that Yasu mind controlled everyone on the island into believing Kanon always existed.

It's significantly less ridiculous because it's an implicit right that the author can make the characters behave however they want; just like how Erika was given the power to boss people around or how the characters in EP7 had memories from two different universes. And the scenes you're talking about are still in the catbox, technically, since everyone involved are dead (except Kanon's visit to Jessica's school, but those girls never met Shannon so...)

[Thanatos of Crows]

Yeah, Kanon "not having a personal life" adds to the probability that no outsider would have known of him. But doesn't SOMEONE attending as Jessica's boyfriend mean a disguise already, as for it not being one would either mean that Kanon exists or that the whole scene was altered by Yasu for character developement.

Even assuming that truly was so, the message bottles depicted worlds were eva was killed, contrary to 'reality', so their authenticity doesn't require refutation in the first place.

I was referring to Renall who wasn't talking about the message bottles but RPrime. The message bottles didn't predict Eva solving the epitaph, and don't even relate to the 1998 world that much as teenage Ange was introduced in ep3 and only Legend and Turn -and Land- were message bottles. Note that ep3 wasn't truthful either even though Eva survived. We are never told what exactly happened on RPrime (except for some ep8 stuff) and the games are only possibilities.