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Cosmic Eagle · 2019-10-27, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by trexalfa

Wouldn't say he was really. His Taikyoku was "shapeless" because he didn't have Craving. Craving determines whether resulting God is Hadou or Gudou type, therefore Yakou can't fall into either camp, and is stuck with a universe devoid of substance, extremely fragile in turn.

But yeah, Yakou even in early game was called a Singularity, incomprehensible phenomenon.

On Nadare's subject, I think assuming she's Gudou God right of the bat is pretty farfetched. For one, the statement about Marie from IKaBey looked like it refered to the entirety of the world of Shinza's history, not just Mercury's reign. For one, Marie being a unique occurence till that point explain why NEET was so fascinated by her. Second, if she's truly "singularity" in the sense Gudou Gods are, she'd be totally disconnected from Avesta and thus can't fall unto the camp of Dragvant.

Of course if Mithra gave her Taikyoku, that means Nadare is just part of her Hadou and thus not disconnected from Avesta, similar to how the Eastern Expedition during Mugen Ezo were all but disconnected from Tengu Dou.

On top of the whole "foreign to the world" thing......She might not really actually be Draegvant. Just someone interfering with the game to her own ends and she chose the Maou as her intermediaries.

Golden Lily · 2019-10-28, 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

On top of the whole "foreign to the world" thing......She might not really actually be Draegvant. Just someone interfering with the game to her own ends and she chose the Maou as her intermediaries.

But then other Demon Lords would know if she's lying. One of the Avesta's rules is that all living beings known by instinct their attributes (Ashavan/Draegvant), own or not.

Cosmic Eagle · 2019-10-28, 22:37

Outsider should register as a blank at most under Avesta no? So no easy scanning there

Cosmic Eagle · 2019-11-01, 09:45

New infodump:

Wahman Yasht ---> Not only is it the name of the Yazata faction, it's also the name of their HQ world. Currently facing internal strife between dissidents like Magsarion and the main leadership.

Warahrām ---> Was 27 when he died. Like what was said in the previous chapter, all the Demon Lords slain by Yazata to date were by his hand. His last stand against Khvarenah allowed some of the Yazata to escape instead of it becoming a total wipe out. Khvarenah was unsettled by him and thus spawned Quinn to find out what these "miracles" of the Ashavan were. A very expressive and charismatic guy. Possesses a unique Vow. It is unknown what that is however. He was Magsarion's closest person.

Looks like a young Kemono-dono. Looks like Muzan too.....Might that be 'cause Magsarion and him are siblings or.....?? Doesn't sound like he turned traitor if he died in a heroic rear guard action but....who knows.

7 Demon Lords ---> What we knew already. Khvarenah, Mashyana, Kaikhosru are Star Spirits. There is no clear hierarchy among them and they are closer to siblings. They are generally close to each other however for them, their expressions of "closeness and love" include mutual killing so basically another dysfunctional family.

Cosmic Eagle · 2019-11-02, 09:31

BTW, in that last tier list Masada made....were the 7 Demon Lords seriously mentioned in the same breath as Yatsukahagi of all people?

shmaster · 2019-11-02, 12:25

No?
He just list them in order of how old they are.

Golden Lily · 2019-11-02, 12:39

I believe he's talking about this

https://twitter.com/masada_takashi/s...21513678725120

Cosmic Eagle · 2019-11-02, 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Lily

I believe he's talking about this

https://twitter.com/masada_takashi/s...21513678725120

Yeah...and I have no idea how that even makes sense unless you can somehow divorce Yatsukahagi from Yatou's Taikyouku. Then again, Khvarenah sounds massively stronger than Methuselah

Golden Lily · 2019-11-02, 13:46

Since Masada placed Hadou and Gudou Gods in the same tier I think it's more of a general placement. He did put Angels and Dust Angels in the same tier as Demon Lords too, so...

trexalfa · 2019-11-02, 15:48

Kemono-dono according to his 2016 tier list is Anti Angel/Top Tier Senshinkan Deity level. Yeah, that tier list is obviously about general placements given Kemono-dono steamrolled Lui. It also has some weird stuff like Lot (not Nacht) being in the same tier as Ryuumei and 3 Commanders, or the fact Know, Kei, Ryuusui and Red Anna share a tier.

Also, yeah, don't think you can dissociate Yatsukahagi from Yatou's Atziluth, but their own Taikyoku is not always active. This is a characteristic typical of Pseudo Gods. And without activating it, they could be on that tier pretty handily IMO. Khvarenah is also outlier-ish in terms of the Archdemons' strength.

Satanel's Angel army in Paradise Lost was said to do things like split seas right open and in the main story we only see a few strength displays by Lilliel. Hardly seen anything from them to judge because the entire army was annihilated thousands of years before main game begins, and we only see a single remnant of it, plus a bunch of low rank resurrected Angels.

shmaster · 2019-11-02, 21:43

Remember, that is a tier list in terms of gameplay performance.

Ricky365 · 2019-11-03, 07:25

Says here Marie was the first Gudou God in the history of the Throne. Up to you to decide credibility

なお神座世界の歴史で最初に出現した求道神はマリィである

https://w.atwiki.jp/god14/pages/467.html

Golden Lily · 2019-11-03, 07:50

They took it from IkaBey's terminology, but changed it a little. Original doesn't say 神座世界の歴史 but 作中の時間軸, which roughly means "timeline of the story". In this case it could mean Dies Irae or the entire Shinza franchise.

Personally I don't think Nadare is a Gudou God. They're self-contained and have no influence on the universe whatsoever, unless 2 Gudou Gods will make contact with each other (Shiori&Soujiro).

trexalfa · 2019-11-03, 08:06

If that's the original then it'd be Dies irae. Masada uses 作中 a lot when it comes to referencing individual games. Plus, the same expression was word per word used in his 2009 Q&A when explaining how Kemono-dono and the Black Round Table peeps got into the fight against Hajun at the end of the 5th Shinza.

Ricky365 · 2019-11-03, 08:42

Wasn't Hadou and Gudou distinctions made after Merc's renovation anyway?

Cosmic Eagle · 2019-11-03, 10:16

Not as far as I can remember. The first Gudou God known so far is Marie but there wasn't anything special that Mercurius did to make Gudou Gods possible. Hajun's world produces only Gudou Gods but that's due to his nature rather than something in the Throne. There doesn't seem to be anything saying Gudou Taikyouku cannot exist before 4th Heaven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky365

Says here Marie was the first Gudou God in the history of the Throne. Up to you to decide credibility

なお神座世界の歴史で最初に出現した求道神はマリィである

https://w.atwiki.jp/god14/pages/467.html

Plenty of stuff seems have to changed since then. Just look at Muzan. I won't so hastily write off the chance of Nadare being a Gudou on that alone. Depending on the type of Taikyoku she has if she is really one, it can still fit. Soujiro is technically always slicing the world he is in even without Shiori after all.

trexalfa · 2019-11-08, 07:41

Observer revealed guys. Name of this guy is Zurvan:

Looks exactly like Shirou with longer hair and he seems to have some of the most characteristic personality traits of Naraka's prolongations.

Cosmic Eagle · 2019-11-08, 08:59

Masada even flat out writes him as "he's Shirou" lol. Doesn't even bother to hide that anymore

Naraka certainly hates super abilities seeing how even this guy is a regular person

Cosmic Eagle · 2019-11-08, 12:46

Ch2 latter part:

Spoiler:

The key to defeating Khvarenah lies in whatever transpired between him and Warahrām that left the former so uneasy that he spawned Quinn and sent her on the mission to gather and find out more about "miracles." The truth of that matter however is still a mystery because as noted before, Suirios refuses to talk about it.

For now, the focus is on finding more stray artifacts of Khvarenah's.

The new shota Yazata, Ferdos is described by Masada as a "hopeless committee chairperson" type character, ie, a serious minded person but easily swayed by those around him. This chapter he just idiotically falls for Samrukh's trolling though. He apparently, has a competition with Quinn and Samrukh in feather accumulation

The younger sister of Suirios is Nahid. She is also Warahrām's betrothed. Her main role is to function as a communication relay for Vohu Manah. She is on another level from Suirios or anyone else in terms of this and can connect with and command over 2000 different star spirits. Together with Warahrām they formed the main bulwark of the Wahman Yasht's fighting power.

Back then, Warahrām and Nahid were inseperable. They were always on the frontlines being the beacon of hope for the Yazata. However, while Nahid was indeed a very loving person, her true love was reserved only for Warahrām. Suirios, knowing this and out of concern for his friend and sister's happiness, thus took the role of king upon himself to spare them the burden of leadership so that they at least had some freedom to themselves. Because of this, Warahrām and Nahid were deeply grateful and loyal to Suirios. While most people consider only the two great heroes Warahrām and Nahid, in truth, it was the three of them (including Suirios) who were legend.

Ferdos worships the three of them because all Ashavan owe their life to Warahrām and Nahid. It was because of the furious struggle put up by them that Khvarenah deliberately let the Yazata go. If they had not done so, the Wahman Yasht would have been exterminated to the last and the Avesta war lost. Nevertheless, Nahid survived the battle. She is considered a truly unique entity especially when one considers the Yazata's main strength to be numbers and cooperation rather than mighty individuals like the 7 Demon Lords. However, she is in stasis, ensconced in her resting place. While her chambers are like a noble's bedroom, something was off about it. The place was cold, devoid of life and color. Samrukh even thought they were visiting her tomb thinking if this can be even called "living."

Turns out Nahid is being suspended in a bubble of frozen time. The artifice was also one of Khvarenah's creations. While the exact working sare unknown, the equipment is operated by a single button and produces a time stop in a 1m diameter, 2m high hemisphere. She had been held in stasis ever since the battle 20 years ago. Deemed too important to lose, she has been kept alive in this manner all this while. However, Quinn speculates Suirios may have allowed this in the hope that when she next wakes, the Wahman would have been restored and she can find happiness again.

shmaster · 2019-11-08, 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Masada even flat out writes him as "he's Shirou" lol. Doesn't even bother to hide that anymore

Naraka certainly hates super abilities seeing how even this guy is a regular person

Uhh, you forget about Judas.

2019-10-28, 22:37	Link #3243
Cosmic Eagle 今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている Join Date: Jan 2009	Outsider should register as a blank at most under Avesta no? So no easy scanning there __________________

2019-11-01, 09:45	Link #3244
Cosmic Eagle 今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている Join Date: Jan 2009	New infodump: Wahman Yasht ---> Not only is it the name of the Yazata faction, it's also the name of their HQ world. Currently facing internal strife between dissidents like Magsarion and the main leadership. Warahrām ---> Was 27 when he died. Like what was said in the previous chapter, all the Demon Lords slain by Yazata to date were by his hand. His last stand against Khvarenah allowed some of the Yazata to escape instead of it becoming a total wipe out. Khvarenah was unsettled by him and thus spawned Quinn to find out what these "miracles" of the Ashavan were. A very expressive and charismatic guy. Possesses a unique Vow. It is unknown what that is however. He was Magsarion's closest person. Looks like a young Kemono-dono. Looks like Muzan too.....Might that be 'cause Magsarion and him are siblings or.....?? Doesn't sound like he turned traitor if he died in a heroic rear guard action but....who knows. 7 Demon Lords ---> What we knew already. Khvarenah, Mashyana, Kaikhosru are Star Spirits. There is no clear hierarchy among them and they are closer to siblings. They are generally close to each other however for them, their expressions of "closeness and love" include mutual killing so basically another dysfunctional family. __________________

2019-11-02, 09:31	Link #3245
Cosmic Eagle 今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている Join Date: Jan 2009	BTW, in that last tier list Masada made....were the 7 Demon Lords seriously mentioned in the same breath as Yatsukahagi of all people? __________________

2019-11-02, 15:48	Link #3250
trexalfa Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014	Kemono-dono according to his 2016 tier list is Anti Angel/Top Tier Senshinkan Deity level. Yeah, that tier list is obviously about general placements given Kemono-dono steamrolled Lui. It also has some weird stuff like Lot (not Nacht) being in the same tier as Ryuumei and 3 Commanders, or the fact Know, Kei, Ryuusui and Red Anna share a tier. Also, yeah, don't think you can dissociate Yatsukahagi from Yatou's Atziluth, but their own Taikyoku is not always active. This is a characteristic typical of Pseudo Gods. And without activating it, they could be on that tier pretty handily IMO. Khvarenah is also outlier-ish in terms of the Archdemons' strength. Satanel's Angel army in Paradise Lost was said to do things like split seas right open and in the main story we only see a few strength displays by Lilliel. Hardly seen anything from them to judge because the entire army was annihilated thousands of years before main game begins, and we only see a single remnant of it, plus a bunch of low rank resurrected Angels. Last edited by trexalfa; 2019-11-02 at 16:02.

2019-11-08, 08:59	Link #3258
Cosmic Eagle 今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている Join Date: Jan 2009	Masada even flat out writes him as "he's Shirou" lol. Doesn't even bother to hide that anymore Naraka certainly hates super abilities seeing how even this guy is a regular person __________________

2019-11-02, 12:25	Link #3246
shmaster オンドリャァァァ!!! Join Date: May 2009	No? He just list them in order of how old they are.

2019-11-02, 12:39	Link #3247
Golden Lily Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014	I believe he's talking about this https://twitter.com/masada_takashi/s...21513678725120

2019-11-02, 13:46	Link #3249
Golden Lily Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014	Since Masada placed Hadou and Gudou Gods in the same tier I think it's more of a general placement. He did put Angels and Dust Angels in the same tier as Demon Lords too, so...

2019-11-02, 21:43	Link #3251
shmaster オンドリャァァァ!!! Join Date: May 2009	Remember, that is a tier list in terms of gameplay performance.

2019-11-03, 07:25	Link #3252
Ricky365 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2019	Says here Marie was the first Gudou God in the history of the Throne. Up to you to decide credibility なお神座世界の歴史で最初に出現した求道神はマリィである https://w.atwiki.jp/god14/pages/467.html

2019-11-03, 07:50	Link #3253
Golden Lily Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014	They took it from IkaBey's terminology, but changed it a little. Original doesn't say 神座世界の歴史 but 作中の時間軸, which roughly means "timeline of the story". In this case it could mean Dies Irae or the entire Shinza franchise. Personally I don't think Nadare is a Gudou God. They're self-contained and have no influence on the universe whatsoever, unless 2 Gudou Gods will make contact with each other (Shiori&Soujiro).

2019-11-03, 08:06	Link #3254
trexalfa Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014	If that's the original then it'd be Dies irae. Masada uses 作中 a lot when it comes to referencing individual games. Plus, the same expression was word per word used in his 2009 Q&A when explaining how Kemono-dono and the Black Round Table peeps got into the fight against Hajun at the end of the 5th Shinza.

2019-11-03, 08:42	Link #3255
Ricky365 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2019	Wasn't Hadou and Gudou distinctions made after Merc's renovation anyway?

2019-11-08, 07:41	Link #3257
trexalfa Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014	Observer revealed guys. Name of this guy is Zurvan: Looks exactly like Shirou with longer hair and he seems to have some of the most characteristic personality traits of Naraka's prolongations.

2019-11-08, 12:46	Link #3259
Cosmic Eagle 今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている Join Date: Jan 2009	Ch2 latter part: Spoiler: The key to defeating Khvarenah lies in whatever transpired between him and Warahrām that left the former so uneasy that he spawned Quinn and sent her on the mission to gather and find out more about "miracles." The truth of that matter however is still a mystery because as noted before, Suirios refuses to talk about it. For now, the focus is on finding more stray artifacts of Khvarenah's. The new shota Yazata, Ferdos is described by Masada as a "hopeless committee chairperson" type character, ie, a serious minded person but easily swayed by those around him. This chapter he just idiotically falls for Samrukh's trolling though. He apparently, has a competition with Quinn and Samrukh in feather accumulation The younger sister of Suirios is Nahid. She is also Warahrām's betrothed. Her main role is to function as a communication relay for Vohu Manah. She is on another level from Suirios or anyone else in terms of this and can connect with and command over 2000 different star spirits. Together with Warahrām they formed the main bulwark of the Wahman Yasht's fighting power. Back then, Warahrām and Nahid were inseperable. They were always on the frontlines being the beacon of hope for the Yazata. However, while Nahid was indeed a very loving person, her true love was reserved only for Warahrām. Suirios, knowing this and out of concern for his friend and sister's happiness, thus took the role of king upon himself to spare them the burden of leadership so that they at least had some freedom to themselves. Because of this, Warahrām and Nahid were deeply grateful and loyal to Suirios. While most people consider only the two great heroes Warahrām and Nahid, in truth, it was the three of them (including Suirios) who were legend. Ferdos worships the three of them because all Ashavan owe their life to Warahrām and Nahid. It was because of the furious struggle put up by them that Khvarenah deliberately let the Yazata go. If they had not done so, the Wahman Yasht would have been exterminated to the last and the Avesta war lost. Nevertheless, Nahid survived the battle. She is considered a truly unique entity especially when one considers the Yazata's main strength to be numbers and cooperation rather than mighty individuals like the 7 Demon Lords. However, she is in stasis, ensconced in her resting place. While her chambers are like a noble's bedroom, something was off about it. The place was cold, devoid of life and color. Samrukh even thought they were visiting her tomb thinking if this can be even called "living." Turns out Nahid is being suspended in a bubble of frozen time. The artifice was also one of Khvarenah's creations. While the exact working sare unknown, the equipment is operated by a single button and produces a time stop in a 1m diameter, 2m high hemisphere. She had been held in stasis ever since the battle 20 years ago. Deemed too important to lose, she has been kept alive in this manner all this while. However, Quinn speculates Suirios may have allowed this in the hope that when she next wakes, the Wahman would have been restored and she can find happiness again. __________________ Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2019-11-09 at 00:05.