[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I'll counter with the argument that Kanon's body is a False Corpse. As proclaimed in the 5th "fake murder" game. Because it's not a real body, Kanon doesn't exist in the Guest Room. Battler placed the corpse in the Closet after setting up the trap with the Shower and escaped.

However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.

The one who rescued Battler was, without a doubt, Kanon.

'The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. It does not matter whether they intended to save Battler or not.

It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

Are you arguing that Kanon was and always has been a fake corpse, and that the fake corpse reset the chain lock from the closet so that Battler could leave?

I thought you were trying to solve the case with the truth of humans, not with magic!

Anyway, if Kanon is and always has been a fake corpse who doesn't exist, why is it that we have reds saying that he entered the room? He had a body at the time he entered the room, so...why doesn't he have one later on?

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.

The one who rescued Battler was, without a doubt, Kanon.

'The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. It does not matter whether they intended to save Battler or not.

It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

Are you arguing that Kanon was and always has been a fake corpse, and that the fake corpse reset the chain lock from the closet so that Battler could leave?

I thought you were trying to solve the case with the truth of humans, not with magic!

What if Kanon were really Shannon? If Kanon became Shannon, Shannon is never confirmed to be among "everyone else", and it wouldn't invalidate the concept that 3 bodies entered the room.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

What if Kanon were really Shannon? If Kanon became Shannon, Shannon is never confirmed to be among "everyone else", and it wouldn't invalidate the concept that 3 bodies entered the room.

It has already been said in red that all people can only use their own names. Therefore, the names Erika, Battler, and Kanon can only be used by those people.

But if Kanon ceased to be Kanon and became Shannon instead, then Kanon would meet the conditions of entering the room, not leaving the room, and yet no longer existing in the room. Sounds about right to me.

[Valkama]

The chain lock was actually poorly sized and allowed enough room for someone the size of Kanon to fit through the door while the chain lock was set.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

I'd like to summon our Umineko court for a trial of a Jessica Culprit Theory.

It's important to note that for the 6th game, Jessica's whereabouts are not confirmed whatsoever by Erika, nor does Erika ever actually ask for confirmation. At best, we can assume she was in the group of 'everyone else'.

But that's an assumption that doesn't have the power of the red truth, so Jessica exists in limbo where she could be a possible culprit.

The only red truth that speaks against Jessica being a culprit, is of course Eva Beatrice's Web of Red Truth. That, however is only for the third game.

In the 1st and 3rd games , Jessica survives the 13 murders and is invited to the Golden Land. Pretty suspicious don't you think?

We know of course, that the 5th game is fiction, that she's alive in the 6th game and the 7th game(or at least the Kyrie Culprit theory) is Bernkastel's web of fiction.

(And the 8th game apparently is to be determined by the actions of the player).

Now that I've raised valid doubt, the next question to ask is the motive. What motive would Jessica have in carrying out the epitath and the murders?

Jessica, like George fell in love with a servant(Kanon). Jessica's also shown to have open disdain for her parents and the role they would have her play in life. What if Jessica and George got together privately, discussed about their relative love problems and decided that since the Ushiromiya family wouldn't approve, to murder their parents(as well as the siblings)?

We're shown that with Jessica's knuckle-braces, she has pretty much the second most powerful weapon in the game(to Kinzo's gun collection of course).

Jessica would probably be the easiest to dress up as Beatrice, I mean the hair color's exactly the same, as well as the eye color!

The Clair-Yasu conversation is also entirely possible if Jessica(who lives on the island) is Clair/Beatrice. There's also the Jessica-Shannon connection of best friends. And Jessica openly bemoans the fact that she doesn't have love. From a friendship perspective it would make sense if Jessica as Beatrice felt outraged at Battler's failure to remember his promise to Yasu/Shannon.

This is merely to invoke conversation, so please don't feel upset. I've also refrained from using any of my "blues" or "reds".(Other then pronouncing my theory).

I'll argue that even if Jessica isn't the culprit(and well, admittedly she's likely not). She most certainly knows of Yasu's existence. And Yasu asked her to roleplay as Beatrice on the island on her behalf.

So in a Yasu Culprit theory, I'd say Jessica is an unwitting accomplice to acting out the part(probably thinking like in the 5th game, that the corpses were fake and it was a part of Yasu's roleplay).

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

What about the 'Jessica gets a scare' story from Episode 7? Do you propose she was lying to Will and Lion? (Is lying even possible with theatre-going? I got the impression it wasn't since Will thinks it is such a violation of a person's privacy and such.)

It seems a little dumb for her to be doing a ritualized murder to be together with her true love... and the true love is one of the ones she kills. Shannon and Kannon get taken out in all of the initial game boards, so that is some interesting ideas on romance we're seeing from Jessica, especially for games she survives.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Valkama

The chain lock was actually poorly sized and allowed enough room for someone the size of Kanon to fit through the door while the chain lock was set.

Maybe, but what good would that do given that we have a red saying Kanon never left the room?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter

What about the 'Jessica gets a scare' story from Episode 7? Do you propose she was lying to Will and Lion? (Is lying even possible with theatre-going? I got the impression it wasn't since Will thinks it is such a violation of a person's privacy and such.)

Kinzo's story, if nothing else, appears to be distorted in some fashion. Or at least there's something going on with it, given the alternate interpretation that comes up in the guts scene.

The difference there is that Kinzo has every reason to tell his story (but tell it his own way). Jessica has no reason to make a story up, especially not one like that.

[AuraTwilight]

It's important to note that for the 6th game, Jessica's whereabouts are not confirmed whatsoever by Erika, nor does Erika ever actually ask for confirmation. At best, we can assume she was in the group of 'everyone else'.

But that's an assumption that doesn't have the power of the red truth, so Jessica exists in limbo where she could be a possible culprit.

Wrong. "Everyone else" means "Everyone else" in red, and so Jessica was in that room.

In the 1st and 3rd games , Jessica survives the 13 murders and is invited to the Golden Land. Pretty suspicious don't you think?

Not the slightest bit.

Jessica would probably be the easiest to dress up as Beatrice, I mean the hair color's exactly the same, as well as the eye color!

Jessica doesn't have blonde hair. When it's talked about, Battler and other characters say Beatrice is the only blonde person around, meaning Jessica's hair is just a stylization, just like Battler's being an impossible anime red.

Jessica, like George fell in love with a servant(Kanon). Jessica's also shown to have open disdain for her parents and the role they would have her play in life. What if Jessica and George got together privately, discussed about their relative love problems and decided that since the Ushiromiya family wouldn't approve, to murder their parents(as well as the siblings)?

We're shown that with Jessica's knuckle-braces, she has pretty much the second most powerful weapon in the game(to Kinzo's gun collection of course).

This doesn't explain why she carries out the Epitaph or hurts anyone besides her parents. Also, no one dies via knuckle-braced punches, so irrelevant.

The Clair-Yasu conversation is also entirely possible if Jessica(who lives on the island) is Clair/Beatrice. There's also the Jessica-Shannon connection of best friends. And Jessica openly bemoans the fact that she doesn't have love. From a friendship perspective it would make sense if Jessica as Beatrice felt outraged at Battler's failure to remember his promise to Yasu/Shannon.

Why would Jessica roleplay as a witch? What do you make of Beatrice's qualities of possessing Yasu's body, only able to talk to Shannon in her dreams, able to literally take on her emotions and being 'born to love Battler'? What about how before Beatrice is unsealed, only Kanon and Shannon can see and speak to her? What do Beatrice and Jessica actually have in common?

Kinzo's story, if nothing else, appears to be distorted in some fashion. Or at least there's something going on with it, given the alternate interpretation that comes up in the guts scene.

I don't believe Kinzo is being deliberately deceitful in his story. I figured either A) His mind is so gone he can't remember things like that properly because he's nutter butters and going senile, or B) Bern totally made that red shit up trolololol.

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Maybe, but what good would that do given that we have a red saying Kanon never left the room?

I don't believe such a red exists.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Valkama

I don't believe such a red exists.

Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only [Erika] and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Now that I've raised valid doubt, the next question to ask is the motive. What motive would Jessica have in carrying out the epitath and the murders?

Jessica, like George fell in love with a servant(Kanon). Jessica's also shown to have open disdain for her parents and the role they would have her play in life. What if Jessica and George got together privately, discussed about their relative love problems and decided that since the Ushiromiya family wouldn't approve, to murder their parents(as well as the siblings)?

We're shown that with Jessica's knuckle-braces, she has pretty much the second most powerful weapon in the game(to Kinzo's gun collection of course).

Jessica would probably be the easiest to dress up as Beatrice, I mean the hair color's exactly the same, as well as the eye color!

Jessica culprit theory (for Rokkenjima Prime) has the same problem as most of the culprit theories do, which is that she really doesn't seem to have any reason to murder everyone on the island. She loves her parents and she doesn't seem to have it in for anyone, really. The only real example of her acting oddly is in the love duel when she killed Kyrie. An argument could be made that she might go nuts in the pursuit of love, but even with that, why would it be necessary for her to kill everyone on the island?

I don't think that Jessica's possession of knuckle dusters puts her all that far ahead of the other characters in strength. Yes, there have been a couple of fantasy scenes where she's been able to do amazing things with them, but that was fantasy. Jessica's fit with the exception of her asthma, but she's not a martial artist like Eva and George, and someone like, say, Battler should be a lot stronger than her. Anyone with a gun would be in a better position to fight than her. (Of course, a culprit Jessica could be armed with a gun anyway.)

Jessica isn't really a blonde, like AuraTwilight said. (And to nitpick, Jessica's sprite's hair shade isn't exactly the same as Beatrice's, and they don't share an eye colour at all. The anime and the PS3 port do have her with blue eyes, though.)

As for the game boards...I haven't gone through and checked directly right now, but I'm pretty sure there are murders she couldn't possibly have committed. Putting that aside right now, though, I do think that the main problem here is the lack of motive. If her parents didn't approve of her dating a servant, all she would need to do is wait a little bit. In fact, they'd outright send her away to university, probably, and after that if she really wanted to leave home, she could. Kanon/Shannon/Yasu/whoever would have enough money to live on too. There's no need for her to murder her parents for her to get what she wants. Plus, like I said above, Jessica loves her parents.

But even assuming Jessica somehow felt her parents had to die ASAP for the sake of her love, there's no way she needs to murder everyone on the island, down to Maria and the servants. In the end, Jessica's only possible motive would have to be total insanity. Which is poison to a detective story...And for both her and George to be planning it together would have to mean that both of them were totally insane.

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I'll argue that even if Jessica isn't the culprit(and well, admittedly she's likely not). She most certainly knows of Yasu's existence. And Yasu asked her to roleplay as Beatrice on the island on her behalf.

How would Jessica find out everything about Yasu, though? I can't really see any indications that she knows all Yasu's secrets. Rather, it looks as if she doesn't. Though there is a plausible theory that Kanon never appeared "in person" on Rokkenjima Prime other than at the school festival, with Jessica asking Shannon to dress up and pretend to be her boyfriend there.

I don't see any reason for Yasu to ask Jessica to roleplay as Beatrice on the island, either. If Yasu wants roleplaying done, she could do it herself. It's not as if she needs to outsource it.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Renall

Kinzo's story, if nothing else, appears to be distorted in some fashion. Or at least there's something going on with it, given the alternate interpretation that comes up in the guts scene.

The difference there is that Kinzo has every reason to tell his story (but tell it his own way). Jessica has no reason to make a story up, especially not one like that.

It's distorted, but that doesn't necessarily mean there are lies, or even that the distortions are obscuring wrong-doing as much as 'glossing over that part' as it were. The other flashes didn't make lies of the other stories either, after all, just pointing out the unpleasant implications with a Beatrice2 who doesn't understand why she's locked away on an island all the time, and Yasu basically freaking out at discovering she's furniture due to her injury.

Kinzo's flash is (like all of them) very short, but it seems to involve an officer berating Kinzo for something regarding attacking the Italians. Are those flashes more illuminating in the Manga? It at least can't possibly flash so quickly, lol.

I would suggest that, to maintain stylistic continuity with the other flashes, the Kinzo flash was of him being berated by his superior officer and or comrades, because of refusal to attack the Italians. Whether motivated by cowardice or principle, by not participating in the battle until the very end Kinzo felt like he had betrayed his duty as a soldier, and that regret pained him, just like Beato2's pain at being cooped up in Kumadorian and Yasu's pain at living with her injuries.

There's also that 'dud' grenade that seems waaaay too convenient, and by the laws of narrative we are almost forced to conclude that Kinzo planted it to give the Itallians a fighting change, but that is pure conjecture at a mystery we are not meant to be able to solve, I think...

[Kealym]

That's a bit different from the other two, though, which just seem to be conversations we weren't made privy to, before. If we take them entirely literally, and I'm pretty sure we should, it also fits with Bern saying she would rip off the niceties of Clair's presentation.

So, it's more likely that Kinzo was the first person to suggest outright stealing the Italians gold, as opposed to just splitting it. This doesn't mean, necessarily, that he was part of Yamamato's plan, that he was entirely serious about that, or that he didn't just change his mind upon further thought, but it does effectively crush this romantic version of events where Kinzo is just so gosh darned pure hearted and virtuous and wonderful that he never thought of having that gold, or a part of it, to himself, not once EVER.

Also, while the dud grenade IS really convenient, someone else (I can't remember the specifics, or who) basically had a rundown of why the Italians going to Rokkenjima at all, in the first place, is almost unforgivably malarkey/nonsensical. And yet, here we are with a bunch of dead Italians.

[Renall]

In general, it's difficult to believe Kinzo was altogether virtuous anyway given how he apparently treated Beatrice and their daughter. I mean, he hid her away somewhere as a mistress and then locked up his own kid on an island prison for 19 years and probably raped her (and that raises a lot of questions about his relationship with her mother, too...). Given that fact, it perhaps makes sense that Kinzo would suggest the plan and back out of it later mostly for Beatrice's sake.

Although I still kinda prefer the notion that Kinzo and Beatrice might've just conspired to get everybody to kill each other so they could keep the gold themselves. I mean, they were the only two people who could communicate in English, so nobody else would know what the hell they were saying and they could "translate" things any way they pleased. So I'm kinda fond of the notion of Kinzo pitching the idea to the other Japanese and seeing how it goes over while Beatrice insists to the Italians that those no-good IJN types are clearly up to something.

[magnum12]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

But even assuming Jessica somehow felt her parents had to die ASAP for the sake of her love, there's no way she needs to murder everyone on the island, down to Maria and the servants. In the end, Jessica's only possible motive would have to be total insanity. Which is poison to a detective story...And for both her and George to be planning it together would have to mean that both of them were totally insane.

The problem with the "no general insanity" reasoning is that insanity is allowed under Knox's Decalogue. It IS however, forbidden under Van Dyne's 19th: The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. Note that a yandere culprit would be allowed since the motive is indeed personal. EP 7 however, seems to imply that the series is not a Van Dyne mystery.

My reason for why "Jessica Prime" doesn't work is because there's zero "red flags" placed in any of the boards. No signs of hatred, malice, nor mental instability. For such a theory to be true would fly completely out of nowhere.

In terms of "red flags" that characters that register the strongest are Rudolf (shady connections), Kyrie (shady connections, yandere behaviour), Rosa (extremely high interms of foreshadowed mental instability, short temper, amongst the worst targets of the "chain of hate", some of the worst money troubles), George (manipulative, yandere tendencies displayed at least twice), and Natsui (heavy emotional abuse, temper, possible instability). However, EP5 seems to imply Natsui is innocent so she can be ruled out..

The first two proposed culprits are suspicious as to their validity because of who is presenting them as culprits. IIRC, Bernkastel has made culprit theories purely for the sake of cruel trolling before (EP 5 I think), so the idea that she is using the Kyrie culprit theory as an act of trolling to hurt people (twice might I add) is plausible. It also stinks of a "Rule Z" style red herring, which makes sense if one connects Umineko to Higurashi. Either way, There were two culprits on prime.

I'm certain that Eva is not the culprit. Prime is most likely a combination of the events of EP3 and EP7. Eva has a body count but in terms of motive, it was NOT murder. The bomb was used by Eva, but the motive was a combination of hiding what happened and for more personal reasons rather than malicious.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by magnum12

The problem with the "no general insanity" reasoning is that insanity is allowed under Knox's Decalogue. It IS however, forbidden under Van Dyne's 19th: The motives for all crimes in detective stories should be personal. Note that a yandere culprit would be allowed since the motive is indeed personal. EP 7 however, seems to imply that the series is not a Van Dyne mystery.

My reason for why "Jessica Prime" doesn't work is because there's zero "red flags" placed in any of the boards. No signs of hatred, malice, nor mental instability. For such a theory to be true would fly completely out of nowhere.

In terms of "red flags" that characters that register the strongest are Rudolf (shady connections), Kyrie (shady connections, yandere behaviour), Rosa (extremely high interms of foreshadowed mental instability, short temper, amongst the worst targets of the "chain of hate", some of the worst money troubles), George (manipulative, yandere tendencies displayed at least twice), and Natsui (heavy emotional abuse, temper, possible instability). However, EP5 seems to imply Natsui is innocent so she can be ruled out..

The first two proposed culprits are suspicious as to their validity because of who is presenting them as culprits. IIRC, Bernkastel has made culprit theories purely for the sake of cruel trolling before (EP 5 I think), so the idea that she is using the Kyrie culprit theory as an act of trolling to hurt people (twice might I add) is plausible. It also stinks of a "Rule Z" style red herring, which makes sense if one connects Umineko to Higurashi. Either way, There were two culprits on prime.

I'm certain that Eva is not the culprit. Prime is most likely a combination of the events of EP3 and EP7. Eva has a body count but in terms of motive, it was NOT murder. The bomb was used by Eva, but the motive was a combination of hiding what happened and for more personal reasons rather than malicious.

I argue that Prime is a combination of all episodes. Indeed, episode 5 details the "fake murder game" that Clair confesses to, and that later on, real actual murders occurred.

An example of this can be seen in the 2nd episode, the Chapel murders of the 1st twilight. I argue that None of the corpses are real


There isn't a red statement confirming the deaths of the people in the Chapel, Battler just assumes they're dead on good faith.

I mean, does candies stuck in their stomach sound like a real, plausible actual attempt of murder? And Rosa commenting on it being beautiful(besides being totally psycho) kind of suggests that it's an act.

However, an Eva Culprit theory is honestly difficult to see. Eva wouldn't be in the position to really orchestrate any demands or threats like Clair/Beatrice can. In fact, since Krauss/Kinzo reject her, she isn't even in the same position as Rosa who at least lived on the island longer.

I don't think Eva made it alive from Rokkenjima that day though, and like Maria's bottles/diary, her Book of Truth was either sent to Japan or buried under ground in Rokkenjima

Doesn't it make more sense for Kasumi to be the one to torture Ange by going to private school and to not know the truth about her family?

I'll also have to rule out a Rudolf Culprit Theory. He's mostly killed in the first twilight of the early games, and he's only allowed to live due to the suspension of the games of Dawn, Twilight.(Followed by Bernkastel's fictional account).

Knox's 8th: It's not permitted for cases to be resolved without clues.

Bernkastel defends this by saying even if clues did exist, the island blew up. But that's not the meaning of the Game Board. Otherwise, that means the truth was lost for all eternity and so, playing the game was absolutely meaningless.

But Battler reasoned(and became the Game Master) by assuming Beato played a fair battle.

An easy way of saying this is: Knox's 6th: It's forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique.

If Bernkastel says clues have been destroyed, clearly she's using her own intuition
or her own biased "perceptive" to craft this tale. Which, admittedly is permitted by Knox's 9th.

But even with the 9th, it can't be used to solve the case. Only meager testimony at best.

I'd argue that George is one of the two culprits. He's almost always in the right position. He has the motive, the drive and as you said obsessive tendencies towards Sayo.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

There isn't a red statement confirming the deaths of the people in the Chapel, Battler just assumes they're dead on good faith.

Wrong, their deaths were confirmed in the EP4 tea party:

The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!


Also how do you want to FAKE your insides? This is not just faking having gun shots... Battler could see their organs through the holes in their bodies.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Wrong, their deaths were confirmed in the EP4 tea party:

The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!


Also how do you want to FAKE your insides? This is not just faking having gun shots... Battler could see their organs through the holes in their bodies.

Lol, that's my fault for primarily reading EP2's reds. I forgot Lambda owned Battler in the Tea Party.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Lol, that's my fault for primarily reading EP2's reds. I forgot Lambda owned Battler in the Tea Party.

For some reason Lambdadelta only denied Battler's blue truths regarding EP1 and EP2, but left EP3 and EP4 alone... So essentially all his blue truths regarding EP3 and EP4 are still valid...

And that red truth I quoted was actually used by Beato herself. Lambda denied "small bombs" though.