2013-08-14, 08:53 | Link #32761 |
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Also, after reading the ep 5 trial again, I have noted two things.
1. Considering Ryu initially intended there to be an affair between Natsuhi and Ghoda, he must have felt funny writing that sequence 2. Lambda tells Battler after using the Gold Truth that to speak more would be dangerous, and that the "thing" he is thinking does not contradict reds in THIS TRIAL. Based on that, I wonder if he was guaranteeing Kinzos corpse with the idea that he killed Kinzo himself (though this would not require a gold truth and would somewhat reduce the special that goes along with its vague nature). It would however fit with Lamda saying in white that only the gamemaster can use gold, which is untrue and just said (unless Ryu just later backpeddled) to allow him to reverse the verdict of the trial... Here's hoping ep 8 provides some clarity |
2013-08-14, 10:04 | Link #32762 | ||
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Anyway I don't think we're meant to read too closely into how the Golden Land actually functions, but damn it, I have to. We'll just pretend it's that thing from Star Trek: Generations or something. It doesn't make a lot of sense as an existing meta-construct, especially since Forgeries still can or do happen and presumably everybody has to reprise their roles in all those Fragments. Or is that a different them? Battler and Erika acted like it both was and wasn't them who would meet again, and the story says they didn't even though they surely will in Forgeries. It's confusing.
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2013-08-14, 13:47 | Link #32763 |
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Beatrice has said the Golden Land was eternal. Just to metaphysical fanwank, I'd suggest observers in eternity and the physical world view the passage of their own time as constant, observers in eternity view the passage of time in the physical world as fixed, and to those in physical time the passage of eternity is too instantaneous to observe. Sea of Fragments would have to have at least these temporal properties in order to exist.
So Battler and anyone else entering the Golden Land don't have to survive in order to live forever. |
2013-08-14, 16:12 | Link #32765 |
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Honestly I'm not sure we know. I'm not sure Ryukishi knew. I'm not sure how this particular gold conforms to the way gold is later used in the story and how it's discussed (although in the ep6 discussion between Erika and Dlanor, neither of them appears to know how it works).
I mean, what is Battler saying exactly and how does it win the argument? Is he saying he believes the body is Kinzo's? Is he saying people agree the body is Kinzo's? How do either of those things defeat Erika's theory in a way saying Natsuhi didn't do it or Kinzo is dead in red don't? Because he can't say "Kinzo is dead" (which is essentially what the gold is end-running around in this case, proving Erika's theory false by making Kinzo incapable of doing what she proposed he did). He isn't allowed to. So how exactly does "well, I can get everybody to agree that he's dead" any better as an argument? And isn't Erika entitled to know what gold truth actually is before everybody just declares it effective and Battler the winner? I hate to say this after she sleazed her way to that point, but I think Erika got shafted there. The ep6 discussion makes clear she has no idea why she lost, which seems completely unfair to her... to say nothing of completely unfair to the audience, because we don't exactly know why she lost either.
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2013-08-14, 16:20 | Link #32766 | |
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All of a sudden the game master has to give proof. Battler said the exact same thing when red truth was introduced in EP2 but there it was handwaved by Beato as "I don't need proof! Red is simply truth!"... but now for some reason that does not work anymore?
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2013-08-14, 20:50 | Link #32770 | |
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And if I remember correctly, when Lambda aknowledged Battler, Erika got very angry that he could use red truth now. Also Dlanors comment "for this case alone I cannot aknowledge the red", or something like that. Why?
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2013-08-14, 20:52 | Link #32771 |
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It was because at that point he was making a human-side argument, just one that was different to Erika's. He still used a human culprit without magic after all, he didn't switch to witch side fully until game 6.
Oh Erika definitely got shafted, Lambda basically orchestrated the thing, she recommended Battler so that he could appeal, and claimed the gold made him automatic GM, and THEN told him to basically shut up so she could quickly declare the retrial in his favour. That bit I quoted before makes it quite clear they are basically rushing things so that Erika doesn't pick up on what Battler is doing, just like Battler initially did to Eva when she first started. |
2013-08-14, 20:56 | Link #32773 | |
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2013-08-14, 21:18 | Link #32774 |
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Good point, the only (somewhat desperate) answer I have to that is that he was throwing a human side move into her theory. The way Erika treated it was basically that he was trying to force her detective skills to make a deduction, like showing her piece the corpse in-game and trying to force her to acknowledge it. The only reason he can't just throw the red at her (since he can now make them), is I suppose because he is still trying to force a human solution, even if he has reds now.
It is also just possible that Ryu needed a reason to wheel out the gold... |
2013-08-14, 21:28 | Link #32775 | |
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I think what you say about it being probably nothing more than an excuse to use gold seems very plausible. Renall also said multiple times that the rules were changed in the trial as R07 saw fit and I have to agree with that.
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2013-08-14, 22:19 | Link #32776 |
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You know, after rereading ep 4, I remember now how much I like the character development that Ange goes through. I hope Ryu had some thematically decent reason for taking so much of it back later that I just don't understand...
Maybe the fact of the matter is that it is easy for Ange to say she should have forgiven and loved Eva after she is gone, and hard to actually do it when faced with her as a living person. |
2013-08-15, 16:29 | Link #32777 | ||||
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Rule of Drama. It's just as arbitrary as Dlanor being able to seal arguments about the Guesthouse window in EP6. |
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2013-08-15, 16:55 | Link #32778 | |
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In the ep6 instance, she sorts people into rooms. Shannon and Kanon are explicitly separated. Somehow, Erika doesn't notice that one of them isn't present, because it shouldn't be possible for both of them to be there at once (unless they both have bodies, and if they do, Beatrice can't use her maneuver later). Assume Shkanon is indeed the case here. How can we reconcile this?
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2013-08-15, 19:22 | Link #32779 | |||
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And any argument claiming that it's improbably for regular Shkanon to be happening around Erika would be among the same arguments against regular Shkanon anyway, all the way back to EP1; it's not worth talking about for the problem at hand. Quote:
From your list of options, I subscribe to : Quote:
So, the narrative lies to Erika when it says "the people were seperated into two rooms" no more than it lied to Battler when it said "Genji and Shannon rushed to alert Kinzo", as far as I see it. Though my theory does maintain that BATTLER is taking advantage of Erika's mistaken assumptions from playing EP5, which makes him kind of a dick, but ... well, BATTLER IS kinda dickish. And Bern/Erika had many, many chances to seek a classic victory instead of a Logic Error. |
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2013-08-15, 19:25 | Link #32780 |
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That is the odd thing about Ep 6, it wasn't a puzzle in one game and a solution in the other.
Ryu, with his own internal rules of how the game works, created the puzzle and the solution all in one episode, therefore surely must have thought about how this trick was going to work. Either we just don't quite understand how the whole narration thing works (probably involves reader theory in that case), he simply didn't care for how that would have to work in real life (which he was usually quite careful with in the first 4 games) or he didn't actually think it through. I am inclined to go with something about reader theory, like how Erika's piece never did witness Kanon, but when reading that is how she interpreted it. We know it to be reasonably possible, like in ep 5 when Battler argued that though the narration showed him responding to Kinzo's pointing, he never spoke a word to Kinzo and didn't necessarily actually see him. |
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