(L) Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Come wa Machigatteiru.

[csuree]

I honestly despise it when Yukino shippers try to shove it down my throat that all other shipping are wrong. And that pisses me off.
I am asking you to respect everybody's choices as I also respect your choice to ship Hikki with Yukino and not offend you because of your choice.

And don't look down on other characters development as being non existant.

Also this is for Yukino shippers (You will hate me for this, but it is an opinion): you are worshipping Yukino's development like it was a godly act but as far as I can tell, and trust me I read the same novel as you, her development was so slow until the end of volume 8 like it was riding a snail and now suddenly speed up to light-speed. She was like an ice-queen and suddenly she gets dere. This is truly unnatural and rushed.
Not doubting that She is one of the main girls in the series, but get your heads out of the clouds and rationally think it through. And again Don't look down on the other girls and their contributions for the development of the story as a whole.

Thank you for your listening, and argue about it in a more civilized manner. (somebody needs to stand up for the other girls too) .

[Frozt]

Originally Posted by csuree

I honestly despise it when Yukino shippers try to shove it down my throat that all other shipping are wrong. And that pisses me off.
I am asking you to respect everybody's choices as I also respect your choice to ship Hikki with Yukino and not offend you because of your choice.

And don't look down on other characters development as being non existant.

Also this is for Yukino shippers (You will hate me for this, but it is an opinion): you are worshipping Yukino's development like it was a godly act but as far as I can tell, and trust me I read the same novel as you, her development was so slow until the end of volume 8 like it was riding a snail and now suddenly speed up to light-speed. She was like an ice-queen and suddenly she gets dere. This is truly unnatural and rushed.
Not doubting that She is one of the main girls in the series, but get your heads out of the clouds and rationally think it through. And again Don't look down on the other girls and their contributions for the development of the story as a whole.

Thank you for your listening, and argue about it in a more civilized manner. (somebody needs to stand up for the other girls too) .

Slow but growing development is the recipe for the end girl.

Spoiler for Examples:

Chitoge in Nisekoi (This is possible to change because Onodera is the most popular girl in the series with the fans so the author may go with that route to make the money money..)
Tyga in Toradora
Touma in WA2 ( I played the VN, and by the endings you can tell she is the end girl)
Ryouko in Ookami san
Manaka in Nagiasu (wasnt really development but took till the end of series to know her feelings)
Holo in spice and wolf
Mio in MM! ( a great series if this was finished im sure the author would have made her the end girl. RIP)
Lisara in Dakara
And alot more..
You know what it has in common with Yahari? They all have a important side girl who has a crush on the MC, confesses, and eventually losses. (exceptions with to Nisekoi since it hasn't ended yet and doesn't seem to be... They keep milking money out of it.)

My head is also not in the cloud. Show me examples where Yui has developed FOR HERSELF? She has gotten a little more aggressive, and a little more nicer in public to 8man. But what else?
Sure she was a key factor in developing 8man, but so was Haruno, Yukino, Sensei, Hayato, Iroha, and Sagami.

Spoiler for Spoiler for other LNs:

Midori/Ami in Toradora also helped developed Ryuuji and lost in the end. Why? Because Tyga had more development. Midori was practically the same except she matured a litte and same goes for Ami.

Yui's development is practically invisible. (i've been arguing the same thing for pages and no one has given me any examples. Tenzen just uses others, while the others just make it more obvious of how much of a SUPPORT character Yui is.)
Go read volume 1, volume 4, volume 6, and volume 9.
And please tell me what things has changed about her.

Now go back and do the same for Yukino.


The fact Watari finally showed her true dere side in volume 9 out of 11 makes her the most obvious choice. He has two volumes left to expand it.
We've been seening Yui's dere side since volume 1, and its nothing new.

Spoiler for Tyga:

We didn't see her really dere side (like Yukino) until vol 8 of the series.

Spoiler for Touma:

We didn't see her really dere side until the end of the anime series, until the end of IC and after IC her personality was even more dere in CC and Coda.

The only time a girl with super fast romacnce development wins is in extremely shoujo manga.

Also like I said, I ship Haruno. But I've read so many LNs that i've lost in terms of shipping due to the pace of the development of the main girl.
Which is why I don't really care anymore and can ACTUALLY think rationally about how Yukino is the end girl.

[Tenzen12]

There is no character development in Nisekoi neither in MM. Taiga had fair share of it but no more than other characters (so you are making same mistake as here). Ryouko had some development but there was no alternatives for comparisson. Manaka had least development of all girls. Touma won not because she had more development but because she was that awesome period.

And there is at least half of animes where girl with less development wins, pretty much anything Okada writes for example (like Nagiasu or True tears). Well, actualy maybe more than half.

[Frozt]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

There is no character development in Nisekoi neither in MM. Taiga had fair share of it but no more than other characters (so you are making same mistake as here). Ryouko had some development but there was no alternatives for comparisson. Manaka had least development of all girls. Touma won not because she had more development but because she was that awesome period.

And there is plenty of animes where girl with less development wins, pretty much anything Okada writes for example.

I stopped reading after that statement. Just wow, I can't even put into words of how much more I should ignore your posts..

The first 50 chapters of Niseko was great. Then it became popular, which is why its been milked the way it is now.

Now i'll continue reading.

and wow, you're extremely ignorant. You didn't even read my post correctly because I addressed all of your examples in my post.


I'm not even going to argue this because I know for a fact you don't know what youre talking about.

How can I take you seriously if you argue with bad examples and terrible reasons oh and BLATANT LIES.
1. I know for a fact you don't read japanese,
2. Ookami san has never been translated.
3. You didn't read Toradora LNs.

Btw.

Okada is a screenwriter. We're not talking about anime here. Almost all anime is horribly butchered when adapting a LN.

[Distoch]

Originally Posted by csuree

She was like an ice-queen and suddenly she gets dere. This is truly unnatural and rushed. .

Honestly she was already warming up in Volume 6 and 7 , there are several moments where she acted weirder than usual in 7 and 8man took note of that.

The downfall by the end of Volume 7 put everything in stasis and it took 8man's confession to put them in motion again , and she wasn't that dere when I read it I just thought "good they are friendly again" , and it was nice to see that she still trusted him that's all.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Frozt

I stopped reading after that statement. Just wow, I can't even put into words of how much more I should ignore your posts..

The first 50 chapters of Niseko was great. Then it became popular, which is why its been milked the way it is now.

Now i'll continue reading.

and wow, you're extremely ignorant. You didn't even read my post correctly because I addressed all of your examples in my post.


I'm not even going to argue this because I know for a fact you don't know what youre talking about.

Yeah you adressed it, I know that, but it hardly make you right. Being your favourite (or one of favourites) doesn't give development to character. Yui doesn't have chance as didn't Setsuna (I dislike that girl), but they both have fair share of it. You are one who is ignorant one if you try denny something that obvious.

And I used YOUR examples, I am suprised you weren't able realise even that.

[Frozt]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yeah you adressed it, I know that, but it hardly make you right. Being your favourite (or one of favourites) doesn't give development to character. Yui doesn't have chance as didn't Setsuna (I dislike that girl), but they both have fair share of it. You are one who is ignorant one if you try denny something that obvious.

And I used YOUR examples, I am suprised you weren't able realise even that.

I know you did. But go back my read my post please. Word for word.

Especially the Manaka one.

As for now, I'm just going to read actual arguments.

[Tenzen12]

Oh yeah Manaka in the end realised what she feel. But love epiphany isn't peak of character development. That said, if you realy think so, it's no wonder you ignore other forms.

If you did decided ignore everything other people said (like me), it's clear there is no meaning continue in discussion. I hope you will get there one day by yourself.

[cord]

Originally Posted by Distoch

Honestly she was already warming up in Volume 6 and 7 , there are several moments where she acted weirder than usual in 7 and 8man took note of that.

The downfall by the end of Volume 7 put everything in stasis and it took 8man's confession to put them in motion again , and she wasn't that dere when I read it I just thought "good they are friendly again" , and it was nice to see that she still trusted him that's all.

I think he's thrown off by the way Yukino lost much of her confidence after the Vol7 incident. The way she's unsure of herself makes her seem more fragile than she's ever been before. Especially so when she defers to Hachiman (which you might mistake for her being "dere," but that's not entirely what it is).

[Distoch]

Originally Posted by cord

I think he's thrown off by the way Yukino lost much of her confidence after the Vol7 incident. The way she's unsure of herself makes her seem more fragile than she's ever been before. Especially so when she defers to Hachiman (which you might mistake for her being "dere," but that's not entirely what it is).

I understand that it might look like a sudden change , especially when we held the cold memory of Vol 8 for so long before this , I'm sure it would have been less of a shock if we were to read it all the way to the end of Vol 9 now.

I was just pointing out that it was not the first time she acted this way , the only big difference here is that she talked a little more about her family (about time after 9 volumes) and that she looks fragile , but then again 8man on the verge of tears was quite uncommon too ...

[Excorsism]

I think it's safe to say people are judging Yukino's "rushed" development because they're looking at the transition from how she was at the end of the anime to volumes 7-9. From that point of view, you might be able to argue for her development being rushed, but I still don't think so either way.

[Hollownerox]

Originally Posted by Frozt

I know you did. But go back my read my post please. Word for word.

Especially the Manaka one.

As for now, I'm just going to read actual arguments.

I don't believe you have a good grasp of what character development actually is.

"Character development is, by definition, the change in characterization of a Dynamic Character, who changes over the course of a narrative. At its core, it shows a character changing. Most narrative fiction in any media will feature some display of this."

Many of your examples are not examples of character development, in fact many of them are actually flat and barely change at all. As @Tenzen12 stated a love epiphany is not character development, that is simply as the term implies, an epiphany. And many of your other examples were pretty piss poor examples for character developments, quite a few were simply realizations rather than any real change in the core values of the character. In fact many of them are only defined in the story by their role as the protagonist's love interest and little else.

Also your reasoning that Yukino will be the end girl is fallacious at best. Have you forgotten the title of this story? "My Youth Romantic Comedy is Wrong as I Expected", this story doesn't really follow the conventional story patterns as the cliche ones you have been listing off. In fact this story barely focuses on romance at all, any romantic subplots (mainly Yui's) are done in a subtle way, but have always been a background event to the real point of the story.

What is the real theme? Hikkigaya Hachiman's place in society and his relationships with other people; that has always been the focus of the novels. Just look at the official shortened version of the title "Oregairu" which means I Exist. If anything I think it is more likely that no girl is going to win at the end all things considered. Just because Yukinoshita has had a recent growth in development means absolutely nothing. Honestly from that perspective even Iroha could have a real chance of getting the spot.

Now before you start your countering, I must state that I am not saying that you're wrong. Yukinoshita could very well be the girl 8-Man hooks up with. What I'm saying is that your argument that everyone else doesn't stand a chance is quite illogical and quite frankly bollocks.

(Side Note: It is quite rude to ignore a person's entire argument simply because you disagree with their opinion. Tenzen's statements were largely accurate from my perspective and this is coming from a person who read the Bible and all of Nietzsche's books to analyze for fun. Literary analysis and story breakdowns are kind of my thing.)

Originally Posted by Excorsism

I think it's safe to say people are judging Yukino's "rushed" development because they're looking at the transition from how she was at the end of the anime to volumes 7-9. From that point of view, you might be able to argue for her development being rushed, but I still don't think so either way.

I'm glad someone else holds this opinion, Yukinoshita's recent behavior felt like something long foreshadowed, her interactions with Hachiman up to this volume seemed like a pretty clear indicator that something like this would happen. But I can still see why this development seemed to come from nowhere.

[Frozt]

Originally Posted by Hollownerox

I don't believe you have a good grasp of what character development actually is.

"Character development is, by definition, the change in characterization of a Dynamic Character, who changes over the course of a narrative. At its core, it shows a character changing. Most narrative fiction in any media will feature some display of this."

Many of your examples are not examples of character development, in fact many of them are actually flat and barely change at all. As @Tenzen12 stated a love epiphany is not character development, that is simply as the term implies, an epiphany. And many of your other examples were pretty piss poor examples for character developments, quite a few were simply realizations rather than any real change in the core values of the character. In fact many of them are only defined in the story by their role as the protagonist's love interest and little else.

Also your reasoning that Yukino will be the end girl is fallacious at best. Have you forgotten the title of this story? "My Youth Romantic Comedy is Wrong as I Expected", this story doesn't really follow the conventional story patterns as the cliche ones you have been listing off. In fact this story barely focuses on romance at all, any romantic subplots (mainly Yui's) are done in a subtle way, but have always been a background event to the real point of the story.

What is the real theme? Hikkigaya Hachiman's place in society and his relationships with other people; that has always been the focus of the novels. Just look at the official shortened version of the title "Oregairu" which means I Exist. If anything I think it is more likely that no girl is going to win at the end all things considered. Just because Yukinoshita has had a recent growth in development means absolutely nothing. Honestly from that perspective even Iroha could have a real chance of getting the spot.

Now before you start your countering, I must state that I am not saying that you're wrong. Yukinoshita could very well be the girl 8-Man hooks up with. What I'm saying is that your argument that everyone else doesn't stand a chance is quite illogical and quite frankly bollocks.

(Side Note: It is quite rude to ignore a person's entire argument simply because you disagree with their opinion. Tenzen's statements were largely accurate from my perspective and this is coming from a person who read the Bible and all of Nietzsche's books to analyze for fun. Literary analysis and story breakdowns are kind of my thing.)



I'm glad someone else holds this opinion, Yukinoshita's recent behavior felt like something long foreshadowed, her interactions with Hachiman up to this volume seemed like a pretty clear indicator that something like this would happen. But I can still see why this development seemed to come from nowhere.

Theres one thing. I said that Manaka didnt really develop.

Go up to my post.
Manaka in Nagiasu. (Not really development but took near the end of the series to realize her feelings. Or something like that) I already said I knew that she wasn't developed. but IT TOOK NEAR THE END OF THE SERIES to realize her feelings. Which is related to Yahari because Yukino also realized her feelings at the end of volume 9( near the end of the series)
Also you analyze the bible. Which is interpreted in thousands of different ways.

Also for titles, Oreimo is an ironic one. The little sister can't be this cute, but she is cute enough for him to stay single at the end of the series.

Also

I listed the characters that were developed in a series and not any of their actual development that happened.
Go read Toradora LN volume 1 -10 and tell me she didn't grow more than any other girl.
Go read Ookami-San volume 1-12 and tell me she didn't develop.
Go read Nisekoi chapters 1-50 and tell me Chitoge didn't develop.
If i listed that actual development step 1 to step 5. It would take pages.
I'm making it short and sweet.

Tenzen also stated certain characters were poorly develeped or never happened when he.
1. He doesn't read japanese (so how can he know Ryouko had poor/no development) AFAIK there isn't a project in bakatsuki and I'll look it up soon for a translated online later)

Spoiler for Ookamisan:

I don't know he says that Ryouko got poor development when she forgave her boyfriend that almost RAPED her. and basically destroyed her middle school life. That takes alot of maturity and to actually grow past a certain wall to do something like that.

2. The counter arguments he listed saying hes read them obviously shows that he didn't. Since most of the LN aren't accessible to those who can't read japanese.
3. He said that Tyga didn't get any actual development in Toradora... (is that a joke) Maybe in the anime she didn't, but in the LN its a lot better like always.

Since his perspectives are "correct" from your view. Doesn't that make you oblivious also?

Also Oregairu even though it is official, doesn't mean that the ln should be interpreted to just that title.
You know whats ironic? 8man's relationship. "My youth romantic comedy is wrong as expected," hes never been in a romantic relationship, and hes tried dozens of time to get into one. It would be wrong if he actually got into a relationship because he never was in one before. Thus making his youth romantic comedy wrong.

[Distoch]

I don't know if I'm the only one thinking this but could you stop trying to make your point using other works and instead focus on what happens in this one ?

All you've been doing up until now is telling us this is going to end one way because it happened in other stories , I personnaly don't care and want to discuss Oregairu here not making up theories on stories that have nothing to do with it.

[Frozt]

Originally Posted by Distoch

I don't know if I'm the only one thinking this but could you stop trying to make your point using other works and instead focus on what happens in this one ?

All you've been doing up until now is telling us this is going to end one way because it happened in other stories , I personnaly don't care and want to discuss Oregairu here not making up theories on stories that have nothing to do with it.

As long as its related to Yahari, I can discuss it. Don't read it then, no one asked you to.
I'm relating how character development relates to how the girl with the most wins.
Which in this case is Yukino.

If people can post theories, I can post mine.
Is it wrong to stand for what I believe?

[Distoch]

And you base this on other LNs , not what happens in Yahari.
Not everyone has read what you are referring to , and even if that was the case I don't see how this is relevant to the story.

If people can post theories, I can post mine.
Is it wrong to stand for what I believe?

Not at all , I just feel like it's better if we can all understand your references and use what we have in this story to prove your point. I can't take patterns from other LN as a solid argument.

[Frozt]

Originally Posted by Distoch

And you base this on other LNs , not what happens in Yahari.
Not everyone has read what you are referring to , and even if that was the case I don't see how this is relevant to the story.



Not at all , I just feel like it's better if we can all understand your references and use what we have in this story to prove your point. I can't take patterns from other LN as a solid argument.

As for relevancy, its how the end girls were had a longer development than their love rivals.

and I can't really use anything with these forum members considering the fact none of them have read any volumes except for the ones on bakatsuki.
Most (98%) people here probably only read volumes 7-9. and using the anime for volumes 1-6. (horribly butchered)
And if you know me, i'm not the one who likes to spoil things without any real purpose.
if you looked at my way earlier posts I did post small hints in the past though.

[havensgate]

soo...what happen to yukino in end ch of v09, can someone spoil me?
what hachiman means with "wanting something genuine"?
and why yukino run after that?
seriously, i dont understad all that subtle talk....

[lijenstina]

Let's make things clear.

Generalizations, abstractions are useful but only if their level is not too high, or else we'll end up with this statement:

All the lives are the same because they end up in death.

Stories have similarities. They are a result of everything, including literature, being based on our finite knowledge and personal experience, prior works and the limited cognitive, intellectual capabilities and emotional states that a human can express.
How many emotions are there? What about genres like comedy, slice of life, coming of age? Having a protagonist and telling a story from his POV?

The difference is in the details. And disregarding them is superficial.

Being a support is the role in the plot. It can be very important. From pushing the characters to act, to moving the plot along.

Character development is it's change trough the story. The reason why some confuse them is because of the role of the character in the series (a support) many authors tend not to develop them. Still, correlation doesn't equal causation. Nothing is set in stone not to do it. Do the stories suffer if the support character develops? Nope.

Spoiler for Clannad and Kanon examples:

Take for instance, Kotomi from the Clannad anime. They took her arc and character development from the VN (elementary, in her arc she is the heroine) develop her like it was in the VN and then relegated her to being a support. That is the usual way of doing an adaptation with relatively rare cases where was chosen to follow the individual stories/arcs to the end (for example Amagami). While we can say that Key did choose Nagisa as the main heroine (which is true) her story in the game doesn't include all the events from the Kotomi arc, neither is she the same there.

Or Nayuki, Mai and Shiori from Kanon. Did the world suddenly explode from ignoring the formula of not developing them because they didn't end up with Yuiichi? Heck, the Makoto story was followed to the end. Still the ending arc is Ayu. See my point ?

Before someone says: Aha! Those developments are just proving that they are support characters. Because they are less than the main girl - I'll remind that person that's not the case in the source material. Still works fine in the adaptation. Also proves the point that character development is not about being a support character or not. That's the role in the story. Chosen by the author/dramatization. It works fine both ways.

Spoiler for Toradora comparison – Read if interested:

Now going back to the Toradora parallel that props up here. That really did bug me out. Plus the use of some illusive diminutive quantizations to describe the developments of an character.

I've watched the anime first and then read the books. I knew how the story ends. Who is the main girl. And I liked Taiga's character. Still, I would never say that Minori is some kind of origami paper figurine that got only an another fold so it is now slightly different.

So, if she does a complete 180 degrees turn in her personality (during the Christmas arc) becoming a trainwreck, gloomy, depressed, insecure, lost, even endangering her cherished dream, at times openly aggressive (for instance snapping at Ryuiji while wearing that bold wig, not to mention the Festival arc or the epic Ami catfight during the Ski trip) that's little? Where the somehow odd, bumbling, energetic, carefree, airhead girl that shines like the sun did go? Nah, that is just her being more energetic and carefree than usual. It's the end that counts.

Let's talk about the end.

She had an arc and for the most part it was a result of her choices. We learned why she behaved like she did, her wavering confronted with feelings and her dream, her resolve and resolution and finally acceptance of the present time as important and not an obstacle to her ambitions. Not to mention that she perfectly fitted the main theme: how appearances and impressions that others have are different from the real person; and in the ending one - where all the characters became true friends knowing and accepting each other true personalities and embracing whatever future brings.

But what she did for herself? Made a choice. Know a little detail? In the 8th volume when they all get together at the Taiga's apartment to prepare for the ski trip she says that she never visited it after they had a quarrel about Taiga's "father" a year ago, neither they'll talked about it. That shows how she tried to run away from the elephant in the room. To keep the status quo. Which later propped up during the Festival arc. Compare that to what she did during the Valentine's day confrontation with Taiga and Ryuiji. Is that not character development? Nope. Or the Ryuiji thoughts in the 9th about how she stopped in her tracks just like him after what happened to Taiga in the previous volume. Nope, again. She is just a support with little to no development. That boggles my mind. Some people can dance around her changes and say she is a support, she is there to help main characters, but please don't equal development and the role in the plot.

Also the analogy with Yui is so flawed. But all lives are the same as they end up in death.

Yui actively pursues the relationship. Minori actively tries to avoid it. She is in the Hachiman's position there BTW. The reasons are different but she is the one doing it. And Yui is in the Ryuiji's one.

Yui doesn't have big dreams about future. (Her talk in the 8th volume where she expresses her reasons why she decided to run for the SC elections touches about that subject). Minori does. That's what pushes her forward. In that regard, Yui is similar to Taiga and Ryuiji.

Ryuiji has a big crush on Minori. Hatchiman doesn't have a crush on anyone yet apart from the one played for jokes on Saika.

Yui isn't confronted yet (and I don't know if ever or when it would happen) with the conflict of Yukino's feelings towards her love interest and the friendship they have. Minori was from the beginning.

The other problem is that whole support role thingamajig and it's importance for the plot. The notion that someone is important for the characters but not for the story.

Let's see. A plot that revolves around socialization, opening to others, finding true friendship (or how Hachiman said something genuine), the difference between being a real friend and an acquaintance is not in the line with the actions of Yui who tries her best to protect the club, treasures relationships both Hikki and Yukino and pushes them to open up by her actions. She wants something genuine. She changed compared to what she keeps doing in the Hayato/Muira group. She broke the spell of not striving for something more.

But... But... That's not what the plot is about! It's about how (insert ship here) got together! Well, if we go down that oversimplification route then the sacred ancient drama books about Love Trigonometry show that three is bigger than two. It's a prepackaged meal of conflict that just need to be heated up in the microwave of the plot. Seriously, for having the drama in that case it needs a viable adversary, a believable rival. Raised stakes. Something that can be destroyed, lost. Saying that someone that is important for the characters, shapes their decisions and pushes them around is not important for the plot in this (possible) case is strange at best. If the main character changes his stance towards someone in the love geometry, becoming closer and more understanding - that is raising the stakes. If that didn't happen there is no drama.

Of course that is only a possibility. Not set in stone. But that scenario makes it more not less relevant.

Anyway, I personally agree with some of the previous posters. As things stand now, the most viable option is the friendship route. It would fit in the theme of being close to someone, socializing and connecting with others.

Other possible endings need more data for not being guesswork.

And please don't move the goal posts. NO DEVELOPMENT is not the same as less development than the chosen one™. Not important for the plot in an one about characters changing with someone making/helping them change for the better and fitting perfectly in the overall theme is just silly. Development and the role in the story are a tendency at best and they are definitely not the same.

[iskorts]

I kinda feel like the argument is about how a certain color's shade is darker or lighter since I sorta agree with all of the posts. Though I'm thinking the end would be more like a "friendship with foreshadowing romance" route instead of simply friendship.

oh, and is it confirmed that Oregairu will only have 11 volumes? @Frozt

I understand that some people might think that Yukino's development seems rushed, but if you interpret that bit of dialogue Yukino had with 8man at the end of the Rumi situation as a sign of Yukino showing a bit of respect or maybe having a higher opinion of 8man. Then the char dev for Yukino in vol 7-9 wouldn't look rushed at all.