2013-08-18, 12:16 | Link #32821 |
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I don't understand why it just can't be as simple as Beatrice telling Maria "Remember to keep track of you toys or Gaap will play pranks and hide them from you" If Gaap's vessel is the concept of things sometimes go missing then as long as someone has the idea they have the vessel.
Also Jessica would never play with Maria with occult things. She describes several times throughout the series that she finds Maria's occult interest creepy. |
2013-08-19, 08:47 | Link #32823 | ||
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Honestly it makes more sense to be Bice-initiated than Kinzo-initiated. Kinzo describes himself as a man waiting to die and he's obviously captivated by this woman who has suddenly appeared. I don't see why he'd suddenly come up with an idea on his own, but if someone floated the idea he might go along with it on "Well, I have nothing to lose" logic. Success would've reinvigorated his desire, as he now had Beatrice and all the gold. The problem here is there's no clear evidence of Bice's angle and what she'd get out of all of this if the gold remains in Kinzo's custody. It seems like kind of a shitty situation for her: She's stuck in a foreign country and has to live as the secret mistress of a married man. It doesn't exactly give her much opportunity to spend any of that money.
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2013-08-19, 09:07 | Link #32824 |
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I don't see it being Beatrices idea at all to steal all the gold. If she really did have such a desire for money why didn't she do anything with it? All Beatrice did after the sub is live as Kinzo's mistress for a few years, have a child and die.
Or was it as the fantasy version - she was instantly captured by Kinzo? As in double-crossed by Kinzo and basicly made a slave?
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2013-08-19, 09:10 | Link #32825 |
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The Jessica/Gaap is starting to get stale, so I'm just going to wrap it up here. It would be more interesting to discuss how much Jessica knew about Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice before the conference began.
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I can't give up my suspicion that Rudolph and Kyrie were playing dead in the 1st ep. Spoiler:
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2013-08-19, 09:13 | Link #32826 | |
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@ALPHA: It was a good game.
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2013-08-19, 10:44 | Link #32827 | ||
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Unless the plan was that she'd be able to live in the hidden mansion and just never managed to get around to it on account of dying. It'd kind of be the ballsiest thing ever for Kinzo to try to maintain two distinct families on the same island, but whatever. The money would still basically be at Kinzo's discretion as Bice can't publicly exist. That's the biggest wrench as I see it in her having the idea: She doesn't gain anything. At best she preserves the gold, but then it just ends up lost to her in Kinzo's hands instead of in the hands of the Americans or Japanese. Quote:
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2013-08-19, 13:18 | Link #32828 | |
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The canonicity of "Our Confessions" looks dubious, but maybe I need a more complete translation to come to a conclusion. Flauros is just a discarded sketch, for good reason. Beatrice may have wanted a moe-saturated nekoko to troll Bernkastel with, but didn't have anything to latch it to, nothing to ground it. |
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2013-08-19, 15:20 | Link #32829 |
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Our Confession seems as canon as anything else Ryukishi wrote. It's effectively another Gameboard that Beatrice never actually used or presented officially, told from Beato's perspective instead of the Detective's. Flauros probably has no connection to Bernkastel because she and Lambda have no meaningful presence in the gameboards.
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2013-08-19, 18:42 | Link #32830 |
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Same could be said about Flauros -- no meaningful presence on Rokkenjima. I don't see what Lambda would have to do with it -- I only mention Bern because it would've amused Beatrice to tweak her, but didn't have enough basis to keep her.
But the first inconsistency I see in 'Our Confession' is that Beatrice selects the winners to support, which contradicts her roulette intent. She knows all she has to do is throw out the apple of discord, since there's already an abundance of motive to kick off the first twilight. |
2013-08-19, 21:21 | Link #32831 |
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If you wanna wrap up Gaap/discussion, sure, but you're still pretty much advancing a head-canon that very contrary to the text on multiple occasions.
On that note, and on to your next point, at least on the gameboards, Jessica seems to have no idea at all about what's going on with Shkanonigans. Like, at all. In Prime, without going into details, the idea that Jessica knew what was going on with Shkanon is just ... wierd, and has weird implications. It's far more likely that if Kanon ever existed in Prime (and it can certainly be argued that he probs didn't), Jessica barely ever saw him. Also, while I can't deny a Kyrolf theory for EP1, such a theory DOES involve Kyrie and Rudolf being able to show Battler the inside of their half removed and smashed apart skulls, despite being perfectly alive. So I mean, we know for example that Kyrie's 'corpse' is Kyrie's corpse because of the red you mentioned, and we know that Battler peered into her smashed apart face. Those sorts of things are notoriously difficult to survive. The reason i mention Flauros and Our Confessions (which is very canon), is that it shows us her PROCESS for making a gameboard. She LITERALLY goes "Hm, I need a fresh magic character to keep things interesting." and MAKES ONE, and isn't overly bothered by deep meaningful vessel correlation, and such. It's not that Flauros was a half-finished draft that she decided not to use because it wasn't "grounded" enough, it's that that entire gameboard is a half-finished draft that ended up not being used. If I were Beatrice, I'd probably just throw in some vague flashbacks of a small wildcat from the forest that would sometimes hang around the mansion, and maybe it gave people the heeby-jeebies because they didn't think any large animals would really survive on their island. "Maybe ... ... ... one of those old Azukishima spirits stole control of the body ... and watched the humans who interloped on it's ancient home ... oooOOOOOooohhhHHHH", and then throw some line or two about how Beatrice was excited to meet a demon she thought the time to meet had passed. I dunno, this isn't very hard. This isn't very strange considering 1. The multiple references to 'Land' in the series, which was one of the thrown message bottles, but is still irrelevant to the Meta narrative, and 2. In EP7 Clair/Beato admit that they ran through many, many possible scenarios. Also, who are these "winners" that she's suppporting? She's just lining up accomplices to make super duper sure she can control the flow of events. It's been theorized since forever that that's pretty much what was going on with Evayoshi in EP1, and Rosa in EP2 ; it's very similar, just with Kratsuhi. The only place Our Confessions differs from the "standard" game boards is that the second Twilight is used to remove only one person, so the survivor count at the 10th Twilight is unusually large (7 people, instead of 5) |
2013-08-20, 00:34 | Link #32832 | ||
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2013-08-20, 07:31 | Link #32833 |
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I would argue that Beato didn't offer him the gold to keep it, she offered him the gold to get away from her current life. Without it, how would Kinzo build her a mansion and hide her on a secret island? What she gets out of the deal is a way to make her love with Kinzo, who already has a family, a real world thing. Though she may certainly have come to regret moving from the submarine cage to the gilded mansion cage later, she was awfully busy being dead.
All we know about Bice is she hated her life, her father was dead and she probably grew up rich. Her she was, trapped in a future of escorts and running and living on a bunk in a sub. Her country was gone, her world over, and she was a nothing on the run. Then there is Kinzo, with their shared hopes and secrets, and the possibility of a good life again. Take the gold Kinzo, and we can be together. Though that isn't really the lovey dovey story we were told. On Gaap: It seems likely to me that some characters have vessels (oh, that soft toy is a vessel for your friend? These stakes are vessels for servants I control!) and some don't (my friend the witch likes to make things disappear). Also, this is something from goats read seacats I had never considered: " believe I’ve said before that there’s something so immensely screwed up about building the house where your family lives within the bomb blast radius, while the house where your lover lives is well out of it." DadOfTheYear |
2013-08-20, 08:17 | Link #32834 |
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If Beatrice seemed more... seductive toward Kinzo, I could buy her using the gold and the whole plot as romantic leverage to win the heart of a married man. Kinzo... probably has to have brought that up at some point, right? He has a wife and children already! What the hell would Bice have thought about that?
If we take that their love was sincere - or at least that Kinzo's was - it sure seems like she did something to ensure that he'd be willing to go to all these lengths for her. Mere emotional blackmail probably wouldn't work too well (if she exposes everything to Kinzo's wife she risks losing the gold). But the story in ep7 merely suggests it's kind of a whirlwind love-at-first-sight kind of thing where they're just perfectly emotionally and intellectually compatible. The problem is there's not a whole lot else to go on. While it would be interesting if Kinzo were a lovestruck dumbass being manipulated into a scheme by a beautiful woman who is far smarter than he thinks, there's not a whole lot to support that. There's really nothing to get deeper into the whole 1945 event than that one flash in the guts scene and maybe a thematic argument: The massacre in '45 created a "catbox" where the survivors got to write the story, and since Beatrice died soon thereafter it falls to Kinzo to rewrite the whole thing as a tragic noble love story and those Japanese and Italian guys just totally killed each other, you guys, but true love suspiciously conquered all. It's also possible that if Bice was manipulative we don't know it because Kinzo didn't know it. So his story tells it as true love because that's genuinely how he felt and he was just going along with what she wanted. But again, not much to really back that up that I know of. Might need to go back and look again.
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2013-08-20, 12:27 | Link #32835 | |||
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Then there's the broader contradictions: * Knox's 1st: Yasu was not introduced as a character in the question arcs, which is when Willard has enough clues for the solution. Neither was "The Man from 19 years ago". Beatrice was introduced in late in EP1, but not as inhabiting a physical body, so to accuse her at that time would've conceded the game for the Human side. * Van Dine's 11th: The servants cannot be the culprits. Operating as accomplices doesn't conflict with this, but Shannon/Kanon couldn't have initiated the 1st twilight. Van Dine may not be applicable, but the rules cited in Red are; for example in EP 8 Willard cited the 12th without Red, only a handful of lines after citing the 7th in Red. This indicates there can be multiple independent culprits, but reinforces that servants can't be one of them. Also, it's not a dyed-in-Red rule, but a genre convention that the most obvious suspect isn't it. The exceptions to this aren't considered good examples of the genre, if not a different genre using the guise of mystery. After her introduction, Beatrice becomes the most obvious suspect, and 'Our Confession' only reinforces that. |
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2013-08-20, 13:27 | Link #32836 | ||||
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2013-08-20, 13:34 | Link #32837 | ||||||||
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If she solved the epitaph, she would've known where the gold was and also have known about the bomb and a safe place to hide from it, just like Eva did in EP3. However, Rosa died, trying to outrun death, heading for water. Ergo, she did not solve the Epitaph. Quote:
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Also, despite her motives, Yasu needs to have atleast one of the adults help her. Controlling the servants isn't enough, since the servants have no ability to control the adults' actions. She's not trying to frame Krauss and Natsuhi, but use them to set up her game. Quote:
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Also, Beatrice's gameboards aren't necessarily bound by Van Dine's rules. Will's existence isn't satisfactory evidence since he doesn't use them to solve Clair's mysteries. Quote:
also, good job, he quoted a Van Dine in Red. That only technically means that it's true that Van Dine's 11th reads thusly, not that it applies. Quote:
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2013-08-20, 14:42 | Link #32838 | |
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Knox's 8th: It's forbidden for the case to be solved without Clues! Was it ever foreshadowed that Kuwadorian would be a safe haven from the bomb? |
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2013-08-20, 15:09 | Link #32839 | |
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The fact that you could survive the "accident" in Kuwarodian actually hints that the "accident" had a radius of destruction.
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