Macross Frontier 2nd Movie: Sayonara no Tsubasa

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I was asking that question to you. Do you have any proof that Alto's history changed? No... no? Then drop that. If there is no proof his history was changed, then it remained the same as the series.

Like I said, your opinion is as good as mine. Because that's all this is. You don't have a quote from The Hory Froating Head or a snippet from the movies' bible stating outright that the character's motivation was the same; ergo that his past was the same. It's not like we were shown anything that didn't happen in the series in regards to Alto's past... Oh, wait. Yes, we were. Hello monkey-eared little lady! Now, what were we talking about again?

And you did not answer my last question. Therefore your argument is moot.
After all, the movies were not made only for those who had previously seen the series, now were they?

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Besides, Kawamori did state that it was a rewrite of the series storyline, not their pasts; so we are left to realize their pasts are pretty much the same.

Right, because the characters' pasts are not a part of the movies' storyline. And it's not like even a single one of them had extensive changes to their background, right? So, please, drop it. You're only making this worse on yourself.

[supernaps]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I'm not trying to inadvertently help LMK, but you DO know that the "indecent version" was a joke, right?

Apparently, not only Nakamura and Endo, but all the other voice actors, and even the staff, were ALL moaning and sighing. So unless you think Alto and Sheryl were having a big ol' orgy, you can't use it as evidence for anything.

I was actually being ironic, using this as a proof that Alto/Sheryl did the deed because it's so obvious you don't even need a 'proof'.

Kind of using LMK's way to troll while not technically troll.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by supernaps

I was actually being ironic, using this as a proof that Alto/Sheryl did the deed because it's so obvious you don't even need a 'proof'.

Kind of using LMK's way to troll while not technically troll.

Oops...sorry for blowing your cover, then...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Oops...sorry for blowing your cover, then...

Back in the car... grandpa Yot...

- Tak

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by teelatsuki

This always bothered me, Ranka was really young at that time so, why it seems like Ranka had no life between the incident with the Vajra and the start of the series/Movies? Unless amnesia makes her forget everyday of her life.

Tak was referring to Ranka knowing about her connection to the plot. Like, for example, her singing making the Vajra appear and what truly happened to 117. She had post traumatic stress and suffered from dissociative amnesia soon after the end of the incident. I doubt Ranka was truly aware of the project Mao had started (and Ranshe and Grace worked on together). In the small flashback in Ep.23, Grace is shown arguing with Ranshe; up until that point, I doubt Ranka was truly ever aware that Grace was part of 117's research facility. So how could she actually tell anyone about her connection to the plot when she doesn't know it?

It honestly has nothing to do with "her life after the incident." It has to do with what happened "during the incident" or "before it." And Ranka doesn't remember those aspects and therefore is lost when people tell her about herself.

It's not her fault. She was just a kid and witnessing her family die before her eyes is probably the most horrifying thing one can go through. I give her a good thumps-up for forgetting the incident and actually living instead of deciding to die blaming herself (like she did in Ep.24).

Now, you seem to believe that being independent means not wanting a romantic relationship. Sheryl could have one, if she wants and she does, and so does Alto.

I was saying that the way Kawamori acknowledged Sheryl, it was as if he wanted her to be a stand-alone character whether or not he put her as the winner of the triangle; because he thought she was that strong, that she could stand on her own, and therefore did not need a relationship to quote "win the love triangle."

Originally Posted by BetoJR

It's not like we were shown anything that didn't happen in the series in regards to Alto's past... Oh, wait. Yes, we were. Hello monkey-eared little lady! Now, what were we talking about again?

I think you forget the fact that in said flashback, Alto's mother was not shown. Nor was she shown in the flashback with his father. Said woman never made an appearance in any of Alto's flashbacks that were in his teen years (after eleven); so it is easy to say "yes" Alto's mother has passed away. Plus, Alto's attachment to her was very strong either way, so why not have a flashback of her unless it makes him suffer?

Right, because the characters' pasts are not a part of the movies' storyline. And it's not like even a single one of them had extensive changes to their background, right? So, please, drop it. You're only making this worse on yourself.

Actually, that's a misconception.

A character's background can be made apart from the storyline. The storyline only creates more change for the character over the period of time.

If a characters past was based on the storyline, then basically you'd be saying the "character never grew" or is still an infant. To give a character no background before the storyline is to make it an "android" or an "emotionless being." A character has to have a background before the storyline in order to flourish.

So therefore, Alto, Sheryl, and Ranka's background all came before the storyline.
Ranka's didn't change much except meeting Alto sooner and have possibly known him for a while. Sheryl's didn't change really except meeting Alto for that short period. Alto's didn't change at all with the exception of meeting Sheryl for that short time and meeting Ranka earlier and befriending her.
Their pasts (in speech and flashbacks) was not much different from the series. Which, Kawamori already said that you could watch episodes 1-15 and then jump into the second movie because the characters attitudes, pasts, and whatnot are the same, it's only the storyline (plot and ending) that is different.

Or had you not paid attention to how similar their characters were from the Ep.15 point?

[supernaps]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

I was saying that the way Kawamori acknowledged Sheryl, it was as if he wanted her to be a stand-alone character whether or not he put her as the winner of the triangle; because he thought she was that strong, that she could stand on her own, and therefore did not need a relationship to quote "win the love triangle."

Actually in the second movie, Sheryl is not that strong (in the sense of your definition), having attached herself to Alto; she tells him to quit flying and fight, she spends time in her room mooning over memories and such.
Yes, she does pull herself together and stands in her own feet but emotional commitment causes need. Sheryl is not a robot, she has feelings that she chooses to act on to; if she is independent or not, that is irrelevant.

Eeer, not sure what you're arguing at here?

[BetoJR]

I give up.

[teelatsuki]

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Tak was referring to Ranka knowing about her connection to the plot. Like, for example, her singing making the Vajra appear and what truly happened to 117. She had post traumatic stress and suffered from dissociative amnesia soon after the end of the incident. I doubt Ranka was truly aware of the project Mao had started (and Ranshe and Grace worked on together). In the small flashback in Ep.23, Grace is shown arguing with Ranshe; up until that point, I doubt Ranka was truly ever aware that Grace was part of 117's research facility. So how could she actually tell anyone about her connection to the plot when she doesn't know it?

Well I was just talking about her character in general.

I was saying that the way Kawamori acknowledged Sheryl, it was as if he wanted her to be a stand-alone character whether or not he put her as the winner of the triangle; because he thought she was that strong, that she could stand on her own, and therefore did not need a relationship to quote "win the love triangle."

I knew it! this is you still taking something and blowing it out of proportion, just because she is a great stand-alone character doesn't mean she should just stay that way as much as I want it this is not the Sheryl Nome show so she was put in situations that connect her with people, in a story relationships are important.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I give up.

You've got more patience than I do...I barely even skim her posts these days.

[supernaps]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I give up.

Nooo, never give up. NEVER SURRENDER

[MichiNekoChan]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

You've got more patience than I do...I barely even skim her posts these days.

I read for the lulz. I'm not sure why shes still bringing stuff up by this point. But by all means, become another Bleach_OD (whom I haven't seen review the 2nd movie yet) XD


Simply put Alto and Sheryl are destined to be together, no matter the universe. Movie!Ranka had best chance, but no luck.

She still had the best concerts though.

[darkplataform]

Wth! Didn't knew ignore list was too hard to use guys

Thanks for getting the thread closed btw.
Chao

[CrowKenobi]

Once again, the children have misbehaved and posts have disappeared, again...

Would it be so hard to actually debate WITHOUT insulting each other?

Can it be possible?

[magnuskn]

I still kinda miss Dex-kun. ^^

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

Certainly. No argument about that, at least in the movie-verse. I hold reservations about it from the TV series, however.

No, of course. I was going with movie-verse exclusively. Michel's his best friend in the TV series while Nanase is Ranka's.

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by teelatsuki

Well to be fair, in the series this is a blink and you miss it, but Alto was searching for Ranka in the series because he did see her taking the train to island three.

That doesn't take away the fact that they did have tons of chemistry[...]

I know he spotted Ranka boarding a train, but I'm not inclined to believe he went to Island Three to look for her. There's nothing saying where the train is going, and she's already made contact with Mikhail. Besides, how would he know where Ranka plans to get off at?

Given all that it's logical to think that his reason for going to Island Three was the one he told Sheryl with such intensity after he spotted one of the Islands through the window of the train the two of them were on -that there was a place he really wanted to take her.

Sorry for pushing the Island Three thing so hard but I'd let the matter drop during a past discussion with LMK this time around I'm inclined not to. The evidence is for Alto being eager to show Sheryl Island Three and against him spending the whole time wishing he was looking for Ranka.

[teelatsuki]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

I know he spotted Ranka boarding a train, but I'm not inclined to believe he went to Island Three to look for her. There's nothing saying where the train is going, and she's already made contact with Mikhail. Besides, how would he know where Ranka plans to get off at?

Given all that it's logical to think that his reason for going to Island Three was the one he told Sheryl with such intensity after he spotted one of the Islands through the window of the train the two of them were on -that there was a place he really wanted to take her.

Sorry for pushing the Island Three thing so hard but I'd let the matter drop during a past discussion with LMK this time around I'm inclined not to. The evidence is for Alto being eager to show Sheryl Island Three and against him spending the whole time wishing he was looking for Ranka.

Well, I'm of the opinion that Alto being so duty oriented, went searching after Ranka because Michael told him to do so (IIRC he didn't see Michael in that scene); he seemed to be searching for her in the mall. Also, I got the impresion that probably certain trains just go from a island to another.

I just keep with this because there's no point in showing Alto seeing Ranka boarding the train if it was for nothing; that is the reason why I liked that in the movie Alto took Sheryl there for no other reason than to have fun.

[Darthtabby]

While he's seen from the side and they don't show him following Ranka onto the train, Mikhail is clearly in view when Alto spots Ranka.

As for a reason to include that scene -can you think of any quicker way to show the audience how Ranka ended up on Island Three later on?

[teelatsuki]

I will check about that later, but if they were doing that it would have worked better if they put it as a passing coincidence; you know when a group of characters don't see that they just passed each other, that is why i still think that Alto went there because Ranka was going there.

[karice67]

Right. How in the world did we get to talking mostly about the TV SERIES?

And I wasn't even talking about 'setting', but rather about storytelling technique...

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

You've got more patience than I do...I barely even skim her posts these days.

Same here. Though even then I always come across something I'm itching to rebut. *sighs* I really shouldn't have bitten that time... Lesson learnt, once again.

Apologies for opening that can of worms, guys. m(_ _ )m

edit: the sad thing is...she actually made one general - VERY general - point I agree with.

====

Moving on, I'm putting aside the director's interview for the moment, since a certain controversial article has finally been verified. Although I won't be posting the scan, all the text within these 「brackets」 is noted to be from Kawamori himself (the Re: subheadings are mine). I've also corrected the mistakes I spotted in my original translation - if there are others, please let me know

Kawamori's comments in Animedia, May 2011 issue, in an article called "After tea, it's time to solve the mysteries..."

Spoiler for Japanese text and English translation:

三角関係について
「TVシリーズのときから気になっていたことがありました。シェリルは劇場版前編でフロンティア船団に来て 助けてもらっただけで、初対面のアルトをあそこまで好きになれるのだろうかと。もしふたりの過去に接点があ れば、それはランカが思う以上にふたりの心の中に深く残っているのかもしれな い。彼にとっては白黒つける話ではなく、今の気持ちを素直に口にしただけなんでしょう」

Re: the triangle
"There were a few issues from the TV series that I wanted to deal with. During the first movie, there are questions as to whether Sheryl can fall for Alto, whom she'd just met, to that extent just because he saved her [shortly after she arrived on Frontier]. If they'd met in the past, perhaps there's a bigger impression left in both their hearts (than what Ranka might think). As for Alto, rather than making it black and white, he's just putting his feelings at that point directly into words."


ランカの成長について
「ランカは自分の言葉で、きちんとアルトに気持ちを伝えることができました。だからいいのです 。　ランカの心の中で決着はついたのです。むしろランカにとってシェリルは恋でも歌でも一番わ か りあえる、　大切な存在になっているんじゃないかな。シェリルも同じようにランカを想っているでしょう。　 ライバルを超えた絆でふたりは結ばれているんですよ」

Re: Ranka's 'growth'
"(This time) Ranka is able to tell Alto of her feelings, in words. That's why it's good [an improvement]. She was able to settle her feelings. You could also think that, to Ranka, Sheryl was someone who could completely understand her feelings about love and singing, i.e. she became someone really important to her. And Sheryl probably feels the same way about Ranka. They are connected by a bond that surpasses the bond between rivals. "


アルトの生死について
「アルトが消えてしまって、僕が思った以上にショックを受けた方が多かったようですね。すみません。最後ま でよく観ていただければわかりますが、確かにアルトはフォールドをしているんですよ。 」

Re: What happened to Alto?
"The number of people who were shocked by Alto's disappearance was greater than I thought. I'm sorry. If you watch to the end carefully I think you'd figure it out, but he actually folded. "


シェリルの目覚めについて
「実はそれに似た話は実際に聞くんですよ（苦笑）アルトがフォールドしたあたりから胸がいっぱいになって、 何か見ているのに見えていない。本編を2回、3回と繰り返し観ているうちにわかってきた、という方もいるそ うです。エンドロールに登場するキャラクター達にもヒントがあるので、彼らの“その後”がきっと想像できる と思いますよ！」

Re: Sheryl's awakening (NB: the setup for these comments is a conversation between a young lady and her butler after teatime. For this one, the butler comments along the lines of 'My lady, you really missed the hint at the end, didn't you? It may be because you just saw it once...' which then leads into Kawamori's comment)
"I've actually been hearing of similar experiences (wry smile). After seeing Alto disappear, [with the shock from that], they didn't see it even though they did actually see it. After seeing the film a second or third time, they realised. There's also a hint in the characters that appear in the credits, so I think you can imagine what happened to them afterwards."


30周年について
「今のところ『マクロスF』本筋の物語はこれで完結。ランカの魔法少女ライブのスピンオフとかなら、やって みたいですけどね。2012年に『マクロス』は30周年を迎えます。その頃にはまた別のアプローチができれ ばと思っています。みなさんとまたお会いできますよう！」

On the 30th anniversary
"With this film, the main story of "Macross Frontier" is complete. If we're talking about something like a spin-off of Ranka's "Magical Girl Live" then I'd love to try doing it. In 2012, Macross will see its 30th anniversary. I'm looking at whether it's possible to take a different approach. That we may meet again!"

=====

On a related note, here's the full segment about the ending from the interview with Ebata Risa (character design) x Kawamori Shouji x Koyama Kariko (mangaka) in the 3rd volume of Sheryl~Kiss in the Galaxy~, p.175

Spoiler for length:

The Secrets of the Ending

Koyama: Lots of elements were included in [Sayonara no Tsubasa], but as the director, are there any scenes you want viewers to pay particular attention to in order to analyse the film?

Kawamori: There are many such scenes. For example, let’s take the concerts. It’s hard to include lines (of dialogue) in the concert scenes, so it’s difficult to advance the story. Instead, we gave each of the concerts a theme – the concepts of ‘alchemy’ and ‘magical girl’ were laid on top of the movie’s theme(s). Viewers may find it interesting to try and link/associate the movie’s theme with the themes of the concerts.

(Editor): From the subtitle, “[~the wings of love’s separation]” [「恋離飛翼」= ren-ri-hi-yoku] I got the image of “marital vows” [「比翼連理」= hi-yoku-ren-ri], the phrase that gives us the meaning of “two as one”.

Kawamori: Besides “two as one”, those two (things) are not things that are similar, but rather there is a sense that they are of different natures. To be precise, we could say they are “three things of (three) different natures”. When [beings] that are completely different meet, something new is born – something like that. From the start, all Macross works are permeated by this theme of overcoming culture shock, overcoming the culture gap, and giving birth to something new.

Koyama: Sheryl and Ranka, Alto. Woman and man…that kind of meeting?

Kawamori: [That’s one of them.*] The film was constructed so that you can figure out the outline from your first viewing, but those kinds of meanings are doubly or triply loaded into it. The way we made this film could be looked at in terms of a jungle or a coral reef, each of which can be explored by various routes. Girls might look at it in terms of the love triangle, mecha-lovers might approach it from the mecha-chasing perspective – and so on. And after seeing it many times, you’d have found many routes that you didn’t see on your first viewing, you’ll have a more rounded grasp of the film. That’s how we made it.

*「そうですね。」 lit: could be “that’s right”, or “well…”, depending on his tone, so I’ve interpreted it according to what the rest of his reply seems to be suggesting. ——karice

Ebata: [That’s how it is for me. I’ve completely jumped on that bandwagon.]

Kawamori: For example, in the small video that runs during the ending (credits), we’ve taken clips from both movies as well as from “Nyan Kuri”, and there’s also meaning in the order of the clips.

Koyama: Other things, like the dialogue and the lyrics, also leave an impression. For example, “Open Ranka” and “he’s dancing” (as in, ‘doing kabuki’ 「 傾いてやがる」) and so on…

Kawamori: With the amount of time we gave to the songs, the lines of dialogue became shorter, and stronger, holding all kinds of meaning. In other words, rather than everyday language, we used words that ‘danced’ 「 “傾いて”います」(laughs).

Koyama: I really want to ask you about the ending. What kind of image, or what kind of message, have you encoded in it?

Kawamori: For this, please think about what Ranka says in the epilogue, and watch the (small) video that plays during the ending. There’s a hint there, something of an answer. It seems that a lot of people unexpectedly missed that cut in the excitement [of their first viewing]. Even though we** made it disproportionately long (laughs).

Koyama: So there’s also meaning in the ending video and in the song Ranka sings?

Ebata: A lot of people seem to have missed it.

Kawamori: That’s right. Because we’re** mean, we** purposely made the video small (laughs). I thought it’d be a good thing if reactions changed depending on whether people saw it or not. It might be best to view this film from a seat right in the middle of the cinema, and towards the front.

**I’ve made these plural, but they could well be singular (i.e. Kawamori could be referring to himself alone). The Japanese text doesn’t indicate which one it is. ——karice

=====

And...

Spoiler for my comments...:

(1) Currently, I probably approach Macross from the 'character analysis' perspective, followed by a more general 'little mysteries' perspective and the mecha perspecitve, with the (love) triangle coming last, except where it's bleedingly obvious How about the rest of you?

(2) So...what do you all think about the little video that played during the ending? Specifically, the order of the clips?