2013-12-08, 08:41 | Link #33581 | ||||||
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That said, Yasu actually didn't have as good an understanding of the parents as she thought she did. The first two episodes suggest that she thought all of the parents would meekly go along with her plan due to their bad financial circumstances, but episodes 3 and 4 suggest this didn't turn out to be the case at all. The fantasy scenes in episode 3 seem to be saying that Eva, Kyrie and Rudolf all attempted to revolt against her plan in some way, while in episode 4 it looks like Kyrie and Krauss may have done the same. I'm not really sure what Yasu knew about Kyrie. She seemed to know there was something up between her and Rudolf, but neither of her stories really go much further than suggesting Rudolf was unfaithful. There certainly isn't any real reason why she should know the secret, unless Rudolf confides his darkest feelings in random servants. Quote:
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e: The ep8 purple text game is a good comparison, that's the kind of thing someone would write if they had no clue about anything. Quote:
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Last edited by Leafsnail; 2013-12-08 at 08:52. |
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2013-12-08, 10:05 | Link #33582 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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That is, if there is something that they think is a potential danger to them, they have no problem shooting first. Consider their fight with the stakes in Episode 3, where they start shooting before the stakes even finish introducing themselves. Also, in the episode 8 battle where the first we see of them is a narrowly evaded attack on Erika with a line about how their style is to take out the enemy boss first. |
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2013-12-08, 15:24 | Link #33583 | |||||||
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Well, I think that more than the book making her want to commit suicide, she already wanted it and the truth in the book didn't improve things. So it can go from it was Kyrie to I've no idea who did it. They're all answers who wouldn't soothe Ange's pain. Though since originally there were scenes that we should have seen while Ange was reading it, I think the book contained some info on what had happened... and since one of the censored scenes was Kyrie pointing a gun at someone Kyrie might be responsible for something... Quote:
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However Ep 3 might have been written by a Tohya who remembered bits and pieces of what had happened and might have unconsciously added in it bits of truth. Undoubtely among the adults Kyrie, Eva and Rudolf are the most tenacious and bright. Hideyoshi is prone to play along, Natsuhi is stubborn but pretty naive, Rosa is unstable, the less intelligent among her siblings and tends to hide behind them and Krauss is not really that bright either. So if there's someone to fear I'll go for Kyrie, Eva and Rudolf. Quote:
Natsuhi didn't tell anyone in the family she pushed the servant and yet Yasu knows. Probably Yasu went with her when she went to the grave of the servant's husband and overheard her apology although likely Natsuhi told her to stay away from the place. Quote:
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After all Rudolf will tell Kyrie the truth only in Ep 8, which might be a hint of how he never managed to tell her the truth when they were alive. Quote:
Krauss can technically be the less likely as, due to his position he basically controls the gold once it's found (he lives where the gold is and can convert it) and not needing the money right there right now he's the one who's going to be less prone to murder over it. As for Rosa... she's alone, as in she doesn't has a husband to back her up and nowhere is mentioned she has knowledge in handling weapons of fighting skills and is the less bright of the siblings' group so people might have thought she wouldn't have managed to outsmart her siblings. So this leave either Eva or Rudolf & Kyrie. Eva is also good because Eva survived while Rudolf and Kyrie can be interesting because Rudolf, after so many years, insisted for Battler to go back in the family and because Ange survived. So there's plenty of material to speculate over for the witch hunters and which might have tormented Ange further. Probably it would have been better for her if a Natsuhi culprit theory or a Rosa culprit theory had been the most popular as she could have bonded with Eva and, at the same time, she wouldn't have suffered of her parents being suspected. |
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2013-12-08, 16:50 | Link #33584 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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Did Ange ever mention to have been ill that day like "curse that illness that stopped me from going together with my family" or something like that? As far as I remember that did not happen. So maybe "Ange was ill" was just a charade towards us, the readers? Or she was perfectly fine, but Kyrie told her, that the doctor said that and she should just listen to her parents and the doctor, or something along these lines.
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Last edited by GreyZone; 2013-12-08 at 17:17. |
2013-12-08, 17:01 | Link #33585 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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If Kinzo could know about whatever information, it's easy to imagine him telling Genji, and from then Genji tells Yasu
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2013-12-08, 17:22 | Link #33586 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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It seems Ange was prone to get sick of stomach when she was anxious but this hadn't stopped her parents from carrying them along in the previous conference while they hadn't considered it for the 1986 conference. From Ep 1: Quote:
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The truth would have been expecially traumatic for Ange as she would be the cause of the massacre, although it would underline at the same time that her parents did it out of love for her, not due to them being simply evil. In short Bern's game and Battler's game would be both right about something. Ange's relatives were the culprits but didn't do it out of greed or evilness, but for her. (of course if Ange had been kidnapped the family might have been willing to help... or they might have suggested to call the police, but if Kyrie and Rudolf were out of mind with worry and managed only to barely look calm on the outside they might have ended up doing something stupid) |
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2013-12-08, 17:38 | Link #33587 |
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Ange-kidnapped-by-Sumadera theory? Eva somehow got to know that from Kyrie and then she paid the debt back to get Ange free? Maybe Kyries sister did not have enough influence yet, or the money was more important for her at that time? Anyway... it is an interesting theory indeed. "Without love it cannot be seen" indeed.
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2013-12-08, 18:03 | Link #33588 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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We know that afterward Eva had Ange gunder surveillance of bodyguards. Sure, it could have been done because they were richer now but it somehow feel strange. So was Eva worried for Ange's safety? |
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2013-12-08, 20:03 | Link #33589 | |
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In another panel, when Bernkastel says that what she showed was "not necessarily the truth", she also says that it was all a way to test Ange, because it was the most horrible alternative that Ange herself could ever imagine and whether she had the resolve to find an even more horrifying truth and still go on pursuing it. If we go by what EP8 now tells us, then Ange basically threw her life and any attachment away in order to learn the truth, so it can't simply be that everybody is dead. Btw. I love the reaction to "Hey, I heard some people committed suicide after Rudolph took their money" being "Ah well, then it's not big step to killing your whole family!" That's the kind of logic problem that we ourselves are also faced with, basically gripping at straws to find a palpable argument towards somebody being a killer above the others. |
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2013-12-08, 20:57 | Link #33590 |
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The thing is, if that's the worst thing Ange can imagine, what's in the diary? I mean she was pretty put out by it. If she can already imagine the notion that her parents and brother were the killers, what could possibly be worse?
About the only thing I can think of is something like "I don't know except [details Eva is actually able to confirm]." It's the only thing worse because it thematically goes along with Amakusa's warning to basically not devote her entire life to the pursuit of something, and Battler's warnings about the truth not existing (even though obviously and logically something did happen, even if it was just an accident). Really, the only thing worse than "Yup, your family did it" would be something like "I have no idea what actually happened and I'm the last person who would ever be able to know the truth, so the truth is lost." It'd give Ange's desire a collapse into apparent futility because, as far as she knows, that's it. The problem is that Ange appears to have read something in there. So either it was exactly as bad as her expectations (in which case shouldn't she have been better-prepared for it?) or it was something really out of left field (in which case why did it seem to bother her even more than the ep7 TP and Bern's ep8 game result?).
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2013-12-08, 22:00 | Link #33592 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Here's an idea: Ange read about an encounter between Eva and Battler after the tragedy but before the explosion, where Battler said 'Nope, I'm done with this family. You can be the only survivor. I'm going to go be a hermit with my buddy the crazy person and read mystery books all day. What? Ange? Oh, I'm not cut out to be a dad. You can raise her. You did a bang up job with George after all, right?' Her beloved onii-chan ran off and abdicated his responsibilities, leading directly to the messed up home life she had with Eva. Because he thought she would be better off that way. And then it went to hell. |
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2013-12-08, 23:49 | Link #33593 |
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I still kind of like the idea that Eva, Battler, and Yasu survived and the latter two left to do a mutual suicide and Eva kinda knew that was happening but accepted it at the time. "Your brother was alive at the end of it all but chose to die anyway and I didn't stop him for reasons you can't possibly understand" is pretty traumatic and ties up a lot of themes:
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2013-12-08, 23:57 | Link #33594 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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As far as Yasu knowing Battler's parentage (mentioned somewhere up there), could it basically just be the worst secret in the world to try to keep? Kasumi says something about Ange resembling her mother a great deal; if anything, she looks more like Rudolf. Battler OTOH is almost a dead ringer facially; Kyrie and Battler might actually be the only ones Rudolf managed to fool. |
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2013-12-09, 05:23 | Link #33595 | |
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It doesn't even need to put Battler in a bad light. It could be that they decided that Battler wanted to go and protect Yasu to at least make up for some of the horrible things he kind of caused. We know that even though he didn't know, EP5's ??? makes clear beyond doubt that he blames himself for the things that happened almost as much as if he caused them himself. Maybe it wasn't even the idea of mutual suicide, but at least the idea to vanish. Yasu had cast her bottles into the sea so her turning up would actually connect her to these and thus to the crimes, making her the prime suspect (if not even guilty on some accord), so her going public is impossible no matter how much Battler pleads. Battler is a minor by law so it is unlikely that a Japanese court would actually hand him legal guardianship of a 6 year old, especially if his deceased parents were broke and involved in illegal activities. Eva was always the safest bet to (a) give Ange a stable home and (b) get her away from the Sumaderas. According to what Tohya's memories show us, it is not unlikely that Eva either thought he died by accident or committed suicide together with Yasu, either way it is likely that this "you almost got your brother back, if he hadn't valued his loyalty to that person more than you" would send Ange over the edge. Yes, it would be the message to her, the main person who destroyed your chance at happiness is yourself for doubting Eva over everybody else. |
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2013-12-09, 18:58 | Link #33598 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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If the people around her suspected her parents to be murderers it was way more likely they shut her out and mistreated her. Also Eva-Beatrice's sweet smile and kindness while dealing with Ange is so touching I'm melting. It's interesting also to see Ange's thoughts. She has already decided what the truth is, in a way. She has already decided that the truth includes her family being dead when there could be reasons for which they simply couldn't go back to her. Ironically it's not that in order to pursue the truth she had to let go of her family. It's in order to pursue the truth she had chosen she has to give up on her family. Even the comparison with Erika is interesting if we think back at how Dlanor pointed out that Erika couldn't disprove the fact her boyfriend had loved her but yet decided on the worst truth. As for the logic problem... well, it's really hard to prove that someone who had never killed can actually be willing to murder, expecially so many people. It's hard to reason it out, expecially if we don't know what he's thinking. We know that potentially everyone can kill and can even have reasons and means to do so... but the strenght of will to do the killing... it's actually the hardest part to reason over. So you go and search for lack of morals, like the girls in the manga did, but actually even criminals can draw a line at certain things. Kyrie left her family and Rudolf never directly killed anyone. Although they might not have had a common sense of moral it's possible they wouldn't have managed to kill anyone. After all we know that Natsuhi, so righteous and severe, not only was actually lying to cover up Kinzo but killed a servant in the attempt to kill a baby and that Kinzo potentially caused the slaughtering between Italians and Japanese... though now I'm wondering how we should take that red truth... Was it a red truth for that game board? Or a red truth for the human world as well? Had people created a Kinzo culprit theory because he was the only one who survived to the massacre and Bern had turned it to be true in her gameboard which we know is already a twisted world? Or is that a true fact? After all without Kinzo's confession it would be hard to prove him as... there were no survivors. Ideas anyone? Quote:
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However things happened and Battler lost his memory and either Eva wasn't informed he survived or decided it was better for Battler to never remember what had happened and start a new life. In a way this would be bad for Ange as Eva didn't just protect her but Battler as well... although her brother is in a way dead to her, as he doesn't exist anymore and yes, now he's leading a happy life with someone else. It would explain why Eva kept the diary with herself even when she was about to die and didn't destroy it and called Ange by her. She wanted Ange to read the diary and find out that her brother still lived, even if memory less in some hidden place or could be still alive as the last time Eva saw him he was escaping. The fact that Ange was given the key to the book of one truth can also be seen as a subtle hint of Eva giving Ange the key to her diary. On a sidenote the talk Ange and with Erika implied that she expected the truth to be that something caused the bomb to malfuction and explode so it can be she simply had already rejected Bern's truths so finding something that involves more than just an incident could have come to a shock with her. Ironically though when she cames to her senses she also realized her family loved her... so the truth might have contained something that helped her to get this? |
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2013-12-10, 01:00 | Link #33599 | ||
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By the way, does anyone have any idea about that "world peace" thing Amakusa was talking about?
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2013-12-10, 04:21 | Link #33600 | |
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Her just tossing the group away or ignoring it wouldn't simply hurt her but a large group of people. It is also not unlikely that at least due to Amakusa travelling with Ange, Okonogi would also know about the bank vaults, which are also a huge risk if somebody just started throwing that money around and it being questioned. Above all, rumors about Kinzo acquiring an island full of wartime exposives and stolen gold from Italy are hovering around, but if Ange was to go public with it and actually vouch for them being true, this wouldn't only hurt the group but could kick of a whole other dilemma. Mind you, Okonogi is apparently quite a selfish bastard, and his main reason for killing Ange and getting rid of the extremist faction of the Sumadera syndicate would be his own gain, so I could see him using words like "world peace" to influence Amakusa as well, who is known to have fought as a child soldier. |
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