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Dean_the_Young · 2009-11-29, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsunade666

well the whole imagine breaker denies everything that super natural and all and a god is classified super natural. So anything from it will be denied.

Some might argue that god is the ultimate natural, since it is from Him that everything else comes from.

A question to pose might be:

Can god create a stone so heavy even he can not lift it? If he created it, could he then shift it?

It's a paradox about what exactly god is capable of, and limitations therein. Imagine Breaker need not be the antithesis of God, but an aspect; with the imagine breaker, that unmovable stone can then be moved, satisfying both God's ability to create the immovable and yet move it.

tsunade666 · 2009-11-29, 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Some might argue that god is the ultimate natural, since it is from Him that everything else comes from.

A question to pose might be:

Can god create a stone so heavy even he can not lift it? If he created it, could he then shift it?

It's a paradox about what exactly god is capable of, and limitations therein. Imagine Breaker need not be the antithesis of God, but an aspect; with the imagine breaker, that unmovable stone can then be moved, satisfying both God's ability to create the immovable and yet move it.

Sorry and all but I didn't understand the last part.......

the all limitations, immovable and movable..... sorry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

That's why I didn't like that scene from the anime... In the manga, Touma got hit in the head because he used his right hand to shield Index from most of the feathers, but couldn't reach that last feather in time- So he used his head.

Anyway, Dragon's Breath seems like a continous stream, so like Innocanteus, the magic technically 'regenerates' itself.

WoW. I didn't know about this. I though that he just didn't see it because his busy looking at index. Because both of his hands are both on his lap or rather below..... how to describe it,,,,,,,, his not using it...? sounds confusing but to me his just standing their waiting to be hit but now its been clarified.

Miraluka · 2009-11-29, 10:10

It can't be a paradox if we assume that Touma/IB as a being higher than God is the son of God...
"who can surpass the father? The son can.
The son proves the existence of the father.
It can sound weird, but what if Touma is a kind of son of God?.

Keroko · 2009-11-29, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Some might argue that god is the ultimate natural, since it is from Him that everything else comes from.

Hmm, but if Index's theory on Touma's Imagine Breaker being the source of his misfortune is true, that would mean the god in the To Aruverse is not.

Considering the way magic works, I would say that god in the To Aruverse works like all of the supernatural things in the To Aruverse: He only exists because people believe he exists.

tsunade666 · 2009-11-29, 11:08

well isn't that the concept also of religion. A god exist because people tend to believe one. Though I'm not sure on the real world. I'm not a man of god or rather I'm not a total believer but then again I'm not a pure man of science. Just your stupid guy on the net.

Which reminds me if ITS existence is the result of the believers then it has a good chance that IB can break it. The whole nature of IB is the destroy your illusion thing like touma's punch line.

aliasxn · 2009-11-29, 14:19

I hope his power up wont be just an extended version of Imagine Breaker... It'd be just more of the same. If he fight's someone who knows martial arts or has a weapon, or if he is out numbered, he'd still be in a bad position no matter how far IB reaches...

It has to be something he can use to smite things.

LeaD36 · 2009-11-29, 17:19

Touma´s power kinda reminds me of that mutant negation power in x-men

oh my this turned into another physics thread, go watch the big bang effect if you want to argue that much about physics

Nochgo · 2009-11-29, 21:59

Isn't 'bad luck' also something supernatural? Since Touma isn't influenced by luck at all, everything that occurs to him is 'natural'. So Touma really shouldn't be complaining about anything at all. btw, I would also say god is a natural being. What defines natural and supernatural anyways? All about perspective...

ReddyRedWolf · 2009-11-29, 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nochgo

Isn't 'bad luck' also something supernatural? Since Touma isn't influenced by luck at all, everything that occurs to him is 'natural'. So Touma really shouldn't be complaining about anything at all. btw, I would also say god is a natural being. What defines natural and supernatural anyways? All about perspective...

Well it is said his right hand will dispel even miracles of the gods.

I'd like to point out Touma is an Atheist.

If we apply the the cat in a box with radioactive poison is both alive and dead at the same time theory to Touma the cat is definitely dead or definitely alive but not both.

In a way Touma is an anti-Haruhi.

Difference is to Touma magicians and espers are a reality while Haruhi is clueless about the bunch she has gathered around herself.

Claies · 2009-11-30, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

If we apply the the cat in a box with radioactive poison is both alive and dead at the same time theory to Touma the cat is definitely dead or definitely alive but not both.

You probably just forgot the name:

"Schrödinger's Cat" theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

Fun fact I just found: The theory was devised by Erwin Schrödinger in 1935, while the real life Aleister Crowley was alive (1875-1947).

ReddyRedWolf · 2009-11-30, 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claies

You probably just forgot the name:

Actually the spelling.

Claies · 2009-11-30, 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Actually the spelling.

Oh, everybody does that. >_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

In a way Touma is an anti-Haruhi.

I think that's a little bit farfetched. Touma can't really wish something away on a whim the way Haruhi does the opposite. Touma actually has to act to return things to normal, while Haruhi just...thinks of something.

Now, that doesn't make a Touma vs. Haruhi (or Nagato?) battle any less epic. Kyon would envy that kind of power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nochgo

Isn't 'bad luck' also something supernatural? Since Touma isn't influenced by luck at all, everything that occurs to him is 'natural'. So Touma really shouldn't be complaining about anything at all. btw, I would also say god is a natural being. What defines natural and supernatural anyways? All about perspective...

Correct. "Good luck" and "bad luck" are both considered supernatural by various religions and philosophies, so what really should happen to Touma is complete mediocrity. The whole "dispelling good luck because he can dispel god" assumes that deities in the Toaru world are in the sole business of dispensing good luck.

tsunade666 · 2009-11-30, 01:58

Or better he doesn't receive any blessing in religious term. Divine protection or grace or the same that has been or should be given to all but doesn't apply to him. Its like his a waking heresy to me. Denying the existence of super natural beings and events.

And if luck and bad luck are both super natural terms then the things that's happening to him are just plain old what you could say as " LUCK " his own kind of luck

not influence by any other. His luck with girls and luck with his daily stunts and misfortune.

And considering touma as anti-haruhi well that's a possibility but then again what haruhi's doing is altering the reality forcing his own reality to the REALITY. Like an esper if you ask me. Well they did call her a GOD. But how can touma dispel it if he can differentiate what's the reality and not reality?

eiyuu99 · 2009-11-30, 03:52

The espers can recruit Touma to dispel those "giants".

tsunade666 · 2009-11-30, 05:39

I don't think so because touma just being their will dispel the closed space itself so his not even needed to touch the giant. Just being their is enough. Woot koizumi will be glad if his their.... but oh well. Haruhi and Touma wouldn't be even get along to begin with. One super energetic the others so gloomy and all.

LastResolve · 2009-11-30, 13:16

well since in episode 8 of karagu no railgun its mentioned that espers bring their own realities into reality that means Touma can destroy their realities wich means he can propably distord reality with his right hand

Claies · 2009-11-30, 13:34

One thing I'm hoping would happen is that Touma's right hand isn't just for blocking. What I'm really looking for is something like Rockman/Megaman where if his right hand absorbs some power, he can in turn use it with his left hand until he absorbs something else.

That makes his character complete, I think.

Miraluka · 2009-11-30, 14:07

That reminds me Itsuki Taiga from Mx0.

tsunade666 · 2009-11-30, 15:30

Taiga's Mx0 card that erase magic and his Black Plate that eats magic and can be used later or one use.

eiyuu99 · 2009-11-30, 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsunade666

I don't think so because touma just being their will dispel the closed space itself so his not even needed to touch the giant. Just being their is enough. Woot koizumi will be glad if his their.... but oh well. Haruhi and Touma wouldn't be even get along to begin with. One super energetic the others so gloomy and all.

Perhaps and perhaps not.
Touma has shown limitations with super regenerating effects,
meaning it may not have definite results with the field-type "Closed Space".

2009-11-29, 10:10	Link #323
Miraluka Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 34	It can't be a paradox if we assume that Touma/IB as a being higher than God is the son of God... "who can surpass the father? The son can. The son proves the existence of the father. It can sound weird, but what if Touma is a kind of son of God?. Last edited by Miraluka; 2009-11-29 at 10:25.

2009-11-29, 21:59	Link #328
Nochgo iceman Scanlator Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: CO, USA	Isn't 'bad luck' also something supernatural? Since Touma isn't influenced by luck at all, everything that occurs to him is 'natural'. So Touma really shouldn't be complaining about anything at all. btw, I would also say god is a natural being. What defines natural and supernatural anyways? All about perspective... __________________ Korean-Manhwa My Anime List

2009-11-30, 13:16	Link #336
LastResolve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: athens	well since in episode 8 of karagu no railgun its mentioned that espers bring their own realities into reality that means Touma can destroy their realities wich means he can propably distord reality with his right hand __________________

2009-11-29, 11:08	Link #325
tsunade666 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: In my room	well isn't that the concept also of religion. A god exist because people tend to believe one. Though I'm not sure on the real world. I'm not a man of god or rather I'm not a total believer but then again I'm not a pure man of science. Just your stupid guy on the net. Which reminds me if ITS existence is the result of the believers then it has a good chance that IB can break it. The whole nature of IB is the destroy your illusion thing like touma's punch line.

2009-11-29, 14:19	Link #326
aliasxn Eye for an Eye Join Date: Apr 2008	I hope his power up wont be just an extended version of Imagine Breaker... It'd be just more of the same. If he fight's someone who knows martial arts or has a weapon, or if he is out numbered, he'd still be in a bad position no matter how far IB reaches... It has to be something he can use to smite things.

2009-11-29, 17:19	Link #327
LeaD36 LeaDfactor Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hungary, Budapest Age: 33	Touma´s power kinda reminds me of that mutant negation power in x-men oh my this turned into another physics thread, go watch the big bang effect if you want to argue that much about physics

2009-11-30, 01:58	Link #333
tsunade666 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: In my room	Or better he doesn't receive any blessing in religious term. Divine protection or grace or the same that has been or should be given to all but doesn't apply to him. Its like his a waking heresy to me. Denying the existence of super natural beings and events. And if luck and bad luck are both super natural terms then the things that's happening to him are just plain old what you could say as " LUCK " his own kind of luck not influence by any other. His luck with girls and luck with his daily stunts and misfortune. And considering touma as anti-haruhi well that's a possibility but then again what haruhi's doing is altering the reality forcing his own reality to the REALITY. Like an esper if you ask me. Well they did call her a GOD. But how can touma dispel it if he can differentiate what's the reality and not reality?

2009-11-30, 03:52	Link #334
eiyuu99 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008	The espers can recruit Touma to dispel those "giants".

2009-11-30, 05:39	Link #335
tsunade666 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: In my room	I don't think so because touma just being their will dispel the closed space itself so his not even needed to touch the giant. Just being their is enough. Woot koizumi will be glad if his their.... but oh well. Haruhi and Touma wouldn't be even get along to begin with. One super energetic the others so gloomy and all.

2009-11-30, 13:34	Link #337
Claies Good-Natured Asshole. Join Date: May 2007 Age: 35	One thing I'm hoping would happen is that Touma's right hand isn't just for blocking. What I'm really looking for is something like Rockman/Megaman where if his right hand absorbs some power, he can in turn use it with his left hand until he absorbs something else. That makes his character complete, I think.

2009-11-30, 14:07	Link #338
Miraluka Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 34	That reminds me Itsuki Taiga from Mx0.

2009-11-30, 15:30	Link #339
tsunade666 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: In my room	Taiga's Mx0 card that erase magic and his Black Plate that eats magic and can be used later or one use.