Why are people so against anime?

[Akito Kinomoto]

I said what I did because that whole mentality is a little silly.

[Key Board]

It's my observation

There's an anti-feminine sentiment and a lot of that leaks into the anti-moe sentiment

[JamesMayFan]

Originally Posted by averygamerdude

I'm an 18 year old boy that lives in the southern United States, and I'm a HUGE anime fantatic. (Obviously, since I'm on these forums) But, there's a problem... 90% of the population in my state are against it. Since I'm from the south, a lot of people are strict republican conservatives, so they hate anything even the teeniest tiny bit inappropriate. Like I remember at my old school I was watching anime (Dirty Pair if you must know) in the computer lab, and yes, I did have permission. But the principal was strolling by, monitoring us. But at that very moment, one of the main characters flipped her skirt up to get out a pistol that was between her legs, and then he told me to come to his office.

He asked me why I was viewing "wretched filth" and I just told him that I was watching an anime and I wasn't aware of what was gonna happen. He asked me if other animes had "sexual content" and I answered: "Well, yeah. Every anime has at least one." He then told me to go back to what I was doing, and I did. He then said over the intercom that he was gonna impose a strict censorship policy, because he looked up on the internet that anime is "obscene and violent". I was pretty much the only one in the entire school who knew what he was talking about and was affected. I watch any of my favorite anime, because they all had pantyshots. I was so mad...

Now closer to the present, I found out that a local church had planned a protest against an anime con that I happened to be going to, and they were gonna send angry letters to companies that license anime in the US. They weren't joking about the con part. They said that anime "is tainting the minds of our children with violence and sexual imagery". They said that anime should be heavily censored and have messages about God and Jesus in them. I wanted to throw up.

People say that anime is obscene, but they contradict themselves because they also say it's for "little kids".

So I wonder, why is everyone where I live so against anime?!

I didn't know but maybe these peeps in your state we're brainwashed that every anime had these tropes

1. Moe
2. Fanservice
3. Incest
4. Unrelatable protagonist
5. Always to be watched in Japanese(that i'm sure no one in your states interested in watching stuffs in a random foregin language)
6. Cultural Differences

almost all of Moe Slice of Life, RomCom, and Japanese highschool stuff had these kind of tropes so that's could be a reason why the folks in your states hating anime's in general

[Yui Is My Wife]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Because as I've said, people in the west have indoctrinated to look down on feminine characters (of both genders)

Bingo!

Compare and contrast The Women of Exhibit A and Exhibit B: BOTH Mothers and Great Warriors in their own right

Exhibit A

Here we have a violent tempered, cold, cynical, snarling, abrasive, sarcastic, sadistic, cruel, masculine-growling, chain-smoking, emotionally-stunted man-hating sociopath who is also an abusive, neglectful and emotionally-absent mother. Point in fact, in the original shooting script, she infamously roars at her son "Stop Crying! Crying shows that you are weak!"
And let us not forget how she delightfully tried to murder a helpless, innocent man in front of his terrified family, wearing the EXACT SAME Sunglasses and using the EXACT SAME weapon (.45 Longslide With Laser Sighting) as her own attempted murderer. Are you sure you really HATE Terminators? Because lady; you make a pretty F^<>ing good one yourself.
And then she has the GALL to spout to her victim misandrist crap in the lines of "men like you made the hydrogen bomb... you don't know what it's like to have a life growing inside you...blah blah blah"
But since she is a powerful, violent emotionless killing machine, it's All Good! A shining example of feminine empowerment!

Exhibit B

Yuuki Asuna is a Courageous Leader, Selfless Friend, Loving Mother, Cunning Tactician and a Peerless Warrior. Point in fact, she is the Greatest Warrior of TWO Worlds, an honor that even Her Husband Kirito cannot lay claim to.

But oh NO.... She is smeared and dragged through the mud as a "despicable weakling" because she:
1) Is sensitive, unselfish, compassionate and kind-hearted; and will NEVER leave a helpless person in despair and alone in their darkest hours of despair.
2) Actually smiles; and it's a smile that can melt through winters with its warmth and tenderness.
3) She is kind and gentle towards children, and actually cares and looks out for them rather than neglect them and toss them out into the cruel world.
4) Actually sheds tears of love and compassion because of her sensitive and kind heart.
5) Spends ONE story arc playing a princess needing rescuing, which somehow justifies damningly ignoring ALL the character growth and deeds of heroism and valor that follows in the years after.

And liking and respecting the Gentle, Motherly, Kind-Hearted Young Warrior that is Yuuki Asuna over the hideous Exhibit C below and hateful Exhibit A above somehow makes every Asuna (and "Moe") fan a "sexist misogynist pig."



No you are not, dear. Exhibit B is; and what a Fine, Noble Example of REAL Femininity she is.
Something Anime haters will NEVER understand.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Key Board

It's my observation

There's an anti-feminine sentiment and a lot of that leaks into the anti-moe sentiment

good to know

still silly tho

@ YUIMW
Too much kindness can lead to one who's walked all over while hyper aggression isn't amiable to anyone. There's a balance to everything, and there are the guys who are men among men without being reduced to mere machismo. Eiji from Kimikiss is a no nonsense guy, but that lets him cut to the heart of matters more easily than most when someone needs guiding strength over nurturing protection. Then you have characters like Sasuke from Naruto who indeed have the concept of strength all backwards.

[SPARTAN 119]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

good to know

still silly tho

@ YUIMW
Too much kindness can lead to one who's walked all over while hyper aggression isn't amiable to anyone. There's a balance to everything, and there are the guys who are men among men without being reduced to mere machismo. Eiji from Kimikiss is a no nonsense guy, but that lets him cut to the heart of matters more easily than most when someone needs guiding strength over nurturing protection. Then you have characters like Sasuke from Naruto who indeed have the concept of strength all backwards.

I agree with you fully on that one.

With regards to femininity and masculinity, as well as kindness vs aggression, I find that really, isn't it just a case of oversimplifying and ascribing gender and stereotypes to a emotions that exist within us all. Whether I'm viewing any work of fiction, whether from the West or the East, I find that characters that display a range of emotions seem more real than others.

Real people can be compassionate one moment and aggressive the next- if a character seems overly aggressive all the time, it makes them seem like a sociopath, likewise, there are characters, such as most harem leads who, if they are too shy to speak their minds, the seem like too much of a pushover to be believed- like they don't have anything they are passionate enough about to defend.

I find that many characters that display a fuller range of emotions to seem more "real" and "human". For instance, as with regard to one of Akuma's namesakes, Akemi Homura will literally show levels of badassery and engage in epic gun battles worthy of any western action hero, but is not afraid to smile when she's around her beloved Madoka, or cry when she sees her friend die over and over again in various timelines.

And for a male example, Ryouta Murakami from Gokukoku no Brynhildr- a male lead who shows great kindness and sympathy for the female cast, yet can show his emotions freely- such as the regret and sadness over the loss of his childhood friend. He literally courageous enough to literally attack an (presumably) trained gunman with a superpowered companion completely unarmed- and later does the same to a superpowered being themselves- in order to protect those he cares about. He does not go to pieces and start nosebleeding uncontrollably when a female character makes sexual advances on him, but at the same time, does not just bang the entire female cast- he makes it clear he is not romantically interested (at least initially), in any of the cast, but still cares deeply for them.

Yet another example, Limlisha from Madan no Ou to Vanadis- she is a truly great female warrior, expert swordswoman, but secretly also is a collector of stuffed animals (somewhat anachronistically for the medieval technology level, but it is technically a fantasy worlds, and that's beside the point), and is prone to be very shy around men, especially in terms of anything related to relationships.

I should note that, while the examples I gave were from anime, similar characters also exist in Western media- characters like Walter White of Breaking Bad- goes into the meth business to provide for his family after he is diagnosed with lung cancer- a badass who is willing to take on entire organized crime syndicates, but still will show emotion, most notably despair and regret in the latter half of the series when his life of crime finally catches up to him.

That, or many of the cast of Game of Thrones, for that matter.... like I said, I could come up with plenty of characters from both Western and Eastern media that fit the description

The point of all these random character studies is that yeah, masculinity and femininity really seem to me like gendered oversimplifications of human emotion. Sure there is some truth that men are more aggressive and women more emoitional, but again, its an oversimplification. And for all the overly masculine or feminine "stereotyped" characters, it must not be forgotten that, it almost seems like these more dimensioned character can gain equally large (or perhaps larger) followings, in both the East and the West.



Edit: Reading through the archived post, I get the feeling YIMW will be a put bit off about my defense of Game of Thrones as an example of Western media that has real, human-seeming characters. Yes, it is a very dark story, but only because it exists in a dark, unidealized, and, as TV Tropes describes it, a "crapsack world" based on the real Middle Ages, sure there are some characters who are just evil, much as there are sociopaths in real life, and, as in the story of Game of Thrones, sometimes, sociopaths end up in positions of power. Many of the cast seem like ordinary people shaped by the brutal world they were born in.

Also, as another person said,

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Also, you do realize that there's plenty of Japanese animation that are a lot like 'JOE PEE PEE MARTINS PLAY OF CHAIRS' where virgins get whored out and innocent children drop like flies while the world ends?

No offense, but this post sounds awfully....weeabooish.

I believe that, whether he realizes it or not, Gen Urobuchi is a member of the "George R.R. Martin School of Torturing Your Own Characters"- not in terms of setting or genre, but in terms of overall dark themes and how innocents are not immune to meeting a horrible fate.

You seem to not be a fan of overly dark themes, and I am not trying to start a flame war here, just providing another point of view. We can agree to disagree on this.

[Archon_Wing]

Yea, the thing here is that people are naturally much more dynamic than a pre-defined set of traits. Of course, many forms of media on both sides of the globe are generally lazy and don't bother with it for and that results in lazy viewers and readers who also go on a checklist of good and bad. often dismissing an entire spectrum of work.

[Key Board]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

good to know

still silly tho

Sorry, but I've noticed there is a backlash against perceive femininity in JRPGs and anime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arAOYBZZSE0

People like this youtube poster above here is NOT a minority

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife

Bingo!

Compare and contrast The Women of Exhibit A and Exhibit B: BOTH Mothers and Great Warriors in their own right

Exhibit A

Here we have a violent tempered, cold, cynical, snarling, abrasive, sarcastic, cruel, masculine-growling, emotionally-stunted man-hating sociopath who is also a neglectful and emotionally-absent mother. Point in fact, in the original shooting script, she infamously roars at her son "Stop Crying! Crying shows that you are weak!"
And let us not forget how she delightfully tried to murder a helpless, innocent man in front of his terrified family, wearing the EXACT SAME Sunglasses and using the EXACT SAME weapon (.45 Longslide With Laser Sighting) as her own attempted murderer. Are you sure you really HATE Terminators? Because lady; you make a pretty F^<>ing good one yourself.
And then she has the GALL to spout to her victim misandrist crap in the lines of "men like you made the hydrogen bomb... you don't know what it's like to have a life growing inside you...blah blah blah"
But since she is a powerful, violent emotionless killing machine, it's All Good! A shining example of feminine empowerment!

Exhibit B

Yuuki Asuna is a Courageous Leader, Selfless Friend, Loving Mother, Cunning Tactician and a Peerless Warrior. Point in fact, she is the Greatest Warrior of TWO Worlds, an honor that even Her Husband Kirito cannot lay claim to.

But oh NO.... She is smeared and dragged through the mud as a "despicable weakling" because she:
1) Is sensitive, unselfish, compassionate and kind-hearted; and will NEVER leave a helpless person in despair and alone in their darkest hours of despair.
2) Actually smiles; and it's a smile that can melt through winters with its warmth and tenderness.
3) She is kind and gentle towards children, and actually cares and looks out for them rather than neglect them and toss them out into the cruel world.
4) Actually sheds tears of love and compassion because of her sensitive and kind heart.
5) Spends ONE story arc playing a princess needing rescuing, which somehow justifies damningly ignoring ALL the character growth and deeds of heroism and valor that follows in the years after.

And liking and respecting the Gentle, Motherly, Kind-Hearted Young Warrior that is Yuuki Asuna over the hideous Exhibit C below and hateful Exhibit A above somehow makes every Asuna (and "Moe") fan a "sexist misogynist pig."



No you are not, dear. Exhibit B is; and what a Fine, Noble Example of REAL Femininity she is.
Something Anime haters will NEVER understand.

I honestly like both characters.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Key Board

Sorry, but I've noticed there is a backlash against perceive femininity in JRPGs and anime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arAOYBZZSE0

People like this youtube poster above here is NOT a minority

Calling it silly =/= refusing to acknowledge people who think like this. Differentiate please.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Yea, the thing here is that people are naturally much more dynamic than a pre-defined set of traits. Of course, many forms of media on both sides of the globe are generally lazy and don't bother with it for and that results in lazy viewers and readers who also go on a checklist of good and bad. often dismissing an entire spectrum of work.

Well, you can certainly use the worst aspects of masculinity or feminicity to explore the flaws of a character that could be rooted in what they think they should be. A one dimensional character can also be compelling precisely because they're so limited in their scope; Daedalus from Ergo Proxy comes to mind, though that's an intentional choice on the writer's part instead of bad writing.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kinomoto

Well, you can certainly use the worst aspects of masculinity or feminicity to explore the flaws of a character that could be rooted in what they think they should be. A one dimensional character can also be compelling precisely because they're so limited in their scope; Daedalus from Ergo Proxy comes to mind, though that's an intentional choice on the writer's part instead of bad writing.

There are bound to be exceptions, but I think I'm not the only one to be overwhelmed by all that tends to play these things unironically.

And of course this is why the checklist approach tends to result in nonsense like this. And indeed, anime is a very varied spectrum of entertainment, but of course so are western works so the comparisons end up being really silly at times.

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Key Board

I highly suspect that culture shock and/or xenophobia plays a role in prejudice against anime
.....

And so the West looks at Japan's taste and goes blah blah sexist.. blah blah .. not empowering .. blah blah .. not White enough

I think these parts of your stance are off the mark. The largest problem is a massive lack of exposure. If most of my fellow westerners even know anime exists, which the majority do not, they simply don't regard it very seriously as it is animation, not live action. Once that particular barrier is breached anime will have a much better chance of being appreciated. That's step 1, after all.

[Guernsey]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

I think these parts of your stance are off the mark. The largest problem is a massive lack of exposure. If most of my fellow westerners even know anime exists, which the majority do not, they simply don't regard it very seriously as it is animation, not live action. Once that particular barrier is breached anime will have a much better chance of being appreciated. That's step 1, after all.

This can also be applied to Western cartoons as well.

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119

I believe that, whether he realizes it or not, Gen Urobuchi is a member of the "George R.R. Martin School of Torturing Your Own Characters"- not in terms of setting or genre, but in terms of overall dark themes and how innocents are not immune to meeting a horrible fate.

You seem to not be a fan of overly dark themes, and I am not trying to start a flame war here, just providing another point of view. We can agree to disagree on this.

Nah. I didn't interept that as starting anything.

In some ways, I actually do prefer darker themes to others. I can't really say whether I like one genre though.

You're spot on about Urobutcher.

[SPARTAN 119]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Nah. I didn't interept that as starting anything.

In some ways, I actually do prefer darker themes to others. I can't really say whether I like one genre though.

You're spot on about Urobutcher.

By disagreeing, I meant in response to Yui Is My Wife.

I'll agree with you on that one, its the struggle to survive in the fucked up world they are placed in that makes them who they are, and what makes it so compelling. As for genre, like you, I'm not as bothered about it really, if I find something entertaining, I'll watch it, whether its sci-fi, fantasy, even the occasional slice of life (though given my proclivity towards dark themes, usually more the Watamote/Oregairu type of slice of life), or any other genre for that matter.

As for Urobutcher, I noticed that about the time I realize both them have character-abuse related internet memes.

[GDiddy]

Originally Posted by SPARTAN 119

By disagreeing, I meant in response to Yui Is My Wife.

I'll agree with you on that one, its the struggle to survive in the fucked up world they are placed in that makes them who they are, and what makes it so compelling. As for genre, like you, I'm not as bothered about it really, if I find something entertaining, I'll watch it, whether its sci-fi, fantasy, even the occasional slice of life (though given my proclivity towards dark themes, usually more the Watamote/Oregairu type of slice of life), or any other genre for that matter.

As for Urobutcher, I noticed that about the time I realize both them have character-abuse related internet memes.

OOPs. My bad for misunderstanding you then.


as for the topic...I still don't understand exactly how the West looks down on anime because of....cute? the characters dress too weird??? because Asuna's not Zena?

Sorry but Zena is the better character. Asuna isn't even CLOSE to a Japanese version.

[Yui Is My Wife]

I was comparing Asuna to that violent abusive-parent man-hating innocent-murdering un-feminine hyper-masculine he-b!^>< Sarah Conor,

Xena was just a punchline to epmphasize what Modern Western Society (and by extension, Anime haters) sees as "acceptable" femininity (much like Conor is); a cold masculine mean spirited cruel violent emotionally absent/stunted man with breasts.

And thank GOODNESS the selfless, motherly, loving, feminine, compassionate ,kind and soft-hearted Asuna, on top of being a Great Warrior, IS INDEED *nothing* like those two sociopathic harpies.

To GDiddy : Just in case, Saber is nothing like those two she-males *either;* what a relief!

Any Warrior Woman who is sincere, warm hearted, honest, honorable, on top of enjoying good-food,loving cute stuffed-animals and capable of being shy and vulnerable is Thank Goodness still a True Proper Lady.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

Sorry but Zena is the better character. Asuna isn't even CLOSE to a Japanese version.

This is an aside, but I have to disagree with Xena being a better character than Asuna.

I enjoyed the Xena show a lot in the early going, when she was still grappling a lot with her dark past and was slowly developing into a more well-rounded character due to the impact of Gabrielle. The show had a lot of potential back then, and it was an interesting and often gripping watch.

But I have to be frank, in the later seasons, Xena was truly a Mary Sue.

Almost nobody could even touch her. In hand-to-hand combat I mean. The vast majority of her antagonists came off looking like complete jokes because of it. What her show did with Caesar and Pompey was just painful to watch. And Ares was turned into an outright laughingstock, in my view.

To be fair, at least the show managed to have some fun with it, giving off a vibe of intentional self-parody at times. I did have a few chuckles along the way. But comedy was about the show's only saving grace in the later seasons, because Xena was basically transformed into an untouchable Mary Sue. Her conflicts were often completely lacking in drama, tension, and gravitas because of it. Sometimes they weren't even fun to watch at a pure spectacle level.


Asuna was badly handled in one particular arc, but on the whole, I like her character. The last arc in SAO Season 2 did a very good job of correcting for some of the problems that Asuna's character had endured previously. Asuna's a pretty well-rounded character, in my view. A good balance of genuine strength with emotional vulnerability. On the whole, she feels like an actual person to me.

[Sheba]

To be fair to Sarah Connor, her role in Humankind's future did not leave her a lot of choices. She have spent the better years of her life being chased by killer robots from the future, locked in a crazies house because NO ONE would believe her ever. Sarah Connor Chronicles have been doing a good job to humanize her, but Fox happened.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Yui Is My Wife

I was comparing Asuna to that violent abusive-parent man-hating innocent-murdering un-feminine hyper-masculine he-b!^>< Sarah Conor,

Xena was just a punchline to epmphasize what Modern Western Society (and by extension, Anime haters) sees as "acceptable" femininity (much like Conor is); a cold masculine mean spirited cruel violent emotionally absent/stunted man with breasts.

And thank GOODNESS the selfless, motherly, loving, feminine, compassionate ,kind and soft-hearted Asuna, on top of being a Great Warrior, IS INDEED *nothing* like those two sociopathic harpies.

To GDiddy : Just in case, Saber is nothing like those two she-males *either;* what a relief!

Any Warrior Woman who is sincere, warm hearted, honest, honorable, on top of enjoying good-food,loving cute stuffed-animals and capable of being shy and vulnerable is Thank Goodness still a True Proper Lady.

Wow, it's almost like women can be anything! What is this madness, and why isn't it making me a sandwhich!?