2014-04-19, 10:31 | Link #34341 | |||||
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I'm not sure what Ryukishi was planning here but for me it makes more sense if she planned fake murders and decided if no one were to solve the tricks she would use the bomb as it's a lot less risky and allow for resurrection should someone solve everything as well as for a possibility of happiness for her. If someone stops her but she has already killed people she'll surely go to jail in the most unplesant way, her secrets exposed to the public... unless she manages to kill herself first (no idea if there's death sentence in Japan). Our confession though seems to imply she planned to commit real murders and if she planned to mutilate corpses like in... let's say the first twilight of Ep 1 I'm not sure if she has the ability to use make up in such way or to replace corpses with dummies (even though Eva implied she thought they were wearing make up). The difference between Bern and us is that to Bern PieceAnge is someone with real feelings and a will of her own and therefore existing somehow, even when she's just a piece. To us Ange is just a character in a tale with no real will nor feelings. She'll feel sad because Ryukishi will decide so and she'll do this because Ryukishi will decide so. She doesn't even stand in as litterally representation of a real person. There's not, as far as we know, a real Ushiromiya Ange who lost her family and is pained by this situation. In short our will to know the truth can't really hurt anyone that can realistically feel pain... while Bern knows Ange will feel pain. So yes, there are definitely parallels between us and Bern... or the witch hunters for the matter... but in the end we are aware that with our wish to knowledge we aren't hurting Ange because she's not real. Our empathy level with her is legittimally low due to her... not existing. So I don't think it's a perfect comparison. Were Umineko dealing with real facts... then the parallel would probably be perfect. But as it deals with what, in our world is only fantasy... we don't feel the need to hold back for another's sake because that 'another' simply put doesn't exist. Quote:
Growing up in the wrong environments probably pushed everything downhill so that Kinzo wouldn't stop in front of nothing and Genji basically would let him do whatever he wanted. Quote:
... which means everything and nothing at the same time. If the first thing Tohya remembered about Battler is that... let's say he shot Kyrie he might have thought of Battler as a colld blooded murederer and not have known that Battler did it in... let's say self defence. Of course there's so little development for Tohya we can hardly figure out what scared him in the first place so let's wait and see if the manga will develop things further. Quote:
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There's to say though that Battler isn't the only one who gets suspected of not being as... candid as he looks. People speculated Jessica knew Kinzo was dead and that Shannon was Kanon... or that George was willing to murder who would get in his and Sayo's way. Rosa was suspected of having gone paranoid and having been the one to start shooting at the first sight of murder game. And the same applies for more or less everyone. The manga has ruled out Rosa, Krauss and Natsuhi from having the chance of doing something but I guess for other characters the situation is still a bit shady so they gets suspected. It's pretty normal. After all it seems the culprits are Kyrie and Rudolf but through the games, although they weren't depicted as angels, they weren't even depicted as mass murderers. We've to wait till Ep 6 to be informed that yes, Kyrie was determined to kill her love rival to get the man she wanted. Going from being willing to murder one person but never getting the chance to mass murder is a rather big step... Technically it would be more likely to suspect of Natsuhi who killed a servant and tried to kill a baby and is hiding Kinzo's death taking advantage of his money. Her body count is higher as well as the crimes she committed and the victims are less 'harmful' to her than Asumu was to Kyrie who was probably already pregnant with Ange. The Ep 8 manga though places Natsuhi as the first one killed so she's absolved from murdering people on the basis she died before she could do anything. |
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2014-04-19, 15:13 | Link #34343 | ||||
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Our Confession is an embelishment since just as much as her stories it is written from Beato's perspective. Beato kills people, but Beato killing people is an illusion that was created by "that person". 'Sayo' likely never had the guts to kill anyone...nor did she really have the intent to kill anyone. What she wanted was being connected as souls, without those "cages of flesh" being in the way. Was that the plan of an insane person? A little...maybe way past sane, but mostly desperate and (as Renall already wonderfully said) it was the horrible people around her who pushed her into this existence as a non-entity with an imperfect body. The EP7 and 8 manga say it like this: Her roulette had 3 eyes. Beatrice, Shannon, and Kanon. But they were also the bomb, the duel of love, and the fake murders. She gave her destiny up to fate so far that she put up three options: Being chosen by somebody, being liberated and connected to all, or at least have someone stop her own madness. Quote:
Bern actually makes some interesting points during EP8, especially in the manga where she and Ange get a lot more narrative focus. She simply has a very different worldview compared to Battler. She kind of pities Battler that he was so easy to forget the eternal torture that he was put through, so much that he now in a way puts Ange through the same without even noticing it. And in the end this Ange really is just fictional as it appears, because while the manga states that Ushiromiya Ange will definitely die in 1998 this does not have to say that the person behind that name dies. At least the VN so far implies that Kotobuki Yukari exists and is Ushiromiya Ange after she changed her identity. So no matter how we look at it, yes, there might have been an Ange who jumped from the building after learning the truth, but there also might be another Ange. Quote:
Ber uses this in an interesting way again (have to check if it was in the VN, but I think it wasn't in such detail) when she and Featherine confront Ange about her role in Battler's game and basically accuse him of making his game TOO clean (so far he even removed the epitaph from his gameboard). If his portrayal of the family was true, then what about Beato's game?! I think what we have to take from this is, the truth lies inbetween as always and they were neither one extreme nor the other...just human beings. And isn't that actually what made Battler so angry with EP2 for example? That people were behaving like lunatics and he didn't understand why? Those were likely not the people that startetd popping up in Tohya's head and he was trying to refuse that. His way of changing around people actually already started with EP4, didn't it? The heroic sacrifices, Rosa and Maria being all sweet and loving? Quote:
But there was always something unsettling about them. EP3 had them going to the mansion under some pretext cooked up by Kyrie in order to put pressure on Hideyoshi, with them all ending up dead (with that weird addition of the text mentioning that Kyrie's wound was not immediately fatal). EP4 had Kyrie being an accomplicee (since EP8 manga plainly spells out that "seeing Kanon and Shannon at the same time = being an accomplicee"). In the same Episode we also learn that her birthhome is a very high-rank yakuza-clan, which makes her all the more likely to be connected to violence. Then we have her being depicted several times as the one who instigated Rudolph to work with his siblings in pressuring Krauss. EP5 has her and Rudolph using Battler to harrass Natsuhi. And EP8 gives us several more things, like her and Rudolph's business being connected to criminal organizations, them basically being involved in fraud and swindle since their student days... If we put two and two together, Kyrie is actually the first person we should suspect....honestly, she and Rudolph are the only ones who are actual suspected criminals. Natsuhi's only real kill was more or less an accident, being more manslaughter than murder, since she only pushed the servant in an impulse reaction. |
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2014-04-19, 17:42 | Link #34344 | |
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I'm reminded of a thing I heard somewhere, can't remember where. Something about not forgetting a heart? Eh, it's probably not related to the situation at hand, nevermind.
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2014-04-19, 18:06 | Link #34346 | |
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Putting a lawyer hat on here, it actually depends. I'll use the Involuntary/Voluntary Manslaughter and Second/First Degree Murder standard here, but I'm not actually sure Japan does it this way.
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2014-04-19, 18:52 | Link #34347 | |
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This is a point I was (poorly) trying to make. Ange to us is nothing but fiction, so everything about her is fake. But the author clearly INTENDS us to view her emotions as important. Similarly, Ange to Bern (even Prime Ange) is just on such a different level of existence to her that it is hard for her to empathise at all. This is an idea that you can infer significant support for in Ryu's work. Think about Battler telling Beato in ep 3 to stop disrespecting her characters so much. Think about how Jessica and George in Ep6 spoke about how it was "just a game" when they killed, but we were shown the emotions of the killed characters anyway Even more-so think about Ange, and how at the same time as we were playing Bern's fun little murder mystery, Ange was experiencing the horrors of it first hand. It is also somewhat supported in Higurashi, no spoilers, but anyone who read Saikoroshi-hen from Rei knows what I mean. In my completely uninformed opinion, showing the in-world fictional characters' reactions to these things is supposed to allow us to draw a parallel between how the witches see the "real people", and then for us to go further and apply it to others in real life |
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2014-04-19, 19:04 | Link #34348 | |
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In my post I didn't want to imply that we or anybody SHOULD consider Kyrie to be the most likely culprit, it's just that circumstancial evidence and her background history don't exactly paint an innocent picture. If what we saw in EP4 is at least partially true then Kyrie grew up around people who have no qualms killing a minor in cold blood. This doesn't have to indicate anything, but it doesn't create an exactly trustworthy background either. We should also consider that, while his embezzling was apparently proven, Krauss didn't exactly do it out of criminal intent but (at least concerning his characterization) out of naivity (or even stupidity) towards people who are trying to use him. Furthermore, the plan to harrass Krauss' family-branch into admitting that Kinzo is dead is something that the message bottles brought up...and though it is likely that something like this happened, it doesn't necessarily have to be this black and white. Natsuhi's culpability is a difficult thing though, I'd not want to have to be drawn into that court case. She did admit to considering the death of the baby, but I do wonder whether she ever actually thought of killing it. It's as much a catbox as Sayo's intent to kill... Since she is a woman unable to voice her opinion out loud and needs a secret diary to express these, I'd say that emotional outbursts like her "pushing the servant" are a sign of psychological problems that need to be adressed. Well...the whole household needs a whole other household of counselors and psychiatrists probably... But again we're still circling around certain questions: Should one persecute a possible crime without regards for the bereaved families of suspects? Should one just ignore an unsolved crime because less people suffer immediately by letting it rest? Should one have a heart for people who committed murder or at least killed somebody? |
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2014-04-19, 19:07 | Link #34349 | |||||
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Actually all the Ushiromiya are clearly not good people. Natsuhi killed the servant and tried to kill the baby, getting on top of the list, Rosa abuses of Maria and neglects her, Kyrie considered committing murder and she's into dirty business, Krauss is hiding Kinzo's death and, with this trick, basically also stealing money from his own relatives, Rudolf is involved in dirty business and switched his sons (which I guess can count as some sort of kidnapping?), Eva and Hideyoshi are desperate enough to be willing to resort to blackmail to get Krauss to hand them some money. Each of them is someone who's defiling/willing to defile law but for each of them the jump they've to do from what they've done to mass murder is of different lenght. Not to say that a person who, so far had behaved with a saint, can't lost it and decide to kill everyone, there's plenty of people who seemed so nice and then... snapped. Only, if we've to judge people solely from what was shown in the games prior to Ep 7 Teaparty, Rudolf and Kyrie weren't killer. We can't wave Ep 7 Teaparty as solely Bern trolling Ange and Lion as we know it contained a good part if not all the truth so this makes possible her mystery game in Ep 8 contained some truth as well. Ergo it's possible to suspect about Battler... even if personally I think the chances he purposely murdered someone in Prime are extremely low as not even Eva seems to blame him of something. LOL, I like the Battler culprit theory but honestly I don't think it's the right solution to Prime. Quote:
It's interesting because Natsuhi then tries to push the blame on Beatrice... their resident demon... pardon, witch... |
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2014-04-19, 20:27 | Link #34350 | ||
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Does she? So is Meta-Ange more real than the Piece Ange who becomes Kotobuki Yukari or the Piece-Ange who fell from the roof of that building? Wouldn't this also make, let's say, Bernkastel more real than Furude Rika?
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Yes, Battler can be said to "sugar-coat" things, but the other fictions are equally guilty of painting characters unrealistically ugly. Who are we "as outsiders" to say which of these was their true being? Why should Battler's image be wrong only because more people believe in their ugly sides? Quote:
Btw. I read up on true crime fiction because I find it fascinating how that has not entered discussion here so far. How are for example theories, books and movies about the Zodiac murders any different than the Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case? |
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2014-04-19, 21:07 | Link #34351 | |
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One might also not expect Eva's feelings to also be tied up in the possibility that somebody had nearly killed her (whether accidentally, deliberately, or in panicked self-defense), if the ep7 TP is close to her impression of what she believes happened. It would be kind of natural to assume a reason behind an event like that, even where one might not exist. I mean, people get shot as a result of stupid people handing firearms without full attention when they suddenly go off quite often in real life.
Her reconstruction would have to be viewed in that light, noting especially the distinct possibility that either some of her details are wrong (regarding things she did not actually observe) or that her interpretation is wrong (she saw things or heard things but they did not necessarily mean what she expected them to mean). There's also a notable absence in all these instances of what the hell Battler was up to. Did Eva think he died too? What did she expect he was doing? The huge Battler-shaped hole in literally everything purporting to be information about Prime is extremely odd. We're presented with the puzzle piece of a living Battler but no hole for it to fit into, but also enough of the puzzle unassembled that we can't say it doesn't fit either. Quote:
Zodiac, and many serial killers, sort of follow the form of a thriller (or true crime, but true crime is basically just a thriller that's true and occasionally doesn't end with a proper literary climax). Zodiac didn't do all his killings in a specific place and time, but instead had a certain method and mythos. Much like how Jack the Ripper's legend is based around his victim selection and the state he left them in, you're looking at a non-discrete environment for investigation. You can't say "there are 20 people in the building and one of them must be Jack the Ripper!" in the same sense you'd probably be able to reasonably say Rokkenjima, if it was a serial murder, was probably committed by one of the people present on the island that day. You discover the identity of Jack the Ripper by comparing method and presentation and try to figure out things like opportunity and identity. Or don't, of course, since some serial killers are never identified.
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2014-04-19, 21:41 | Link #34352 | |||
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If however Bern were to Furude Rika merely a character in a book or something like that, this would strip Bern of being REAL in Rika's world same as it does in ours. Someone is writing Bern's actions and feelings. While we can sympathize with her or hate her we don't feel for her the same obligations we feel for a living being... and while we can judge her evil, in the end, we know she's as such because she was written like that. Bern isn't real in our world. In the same way we'll never know if we're real or we're characters of a tale. But from my perspective you and I are real and if I'm... let's say... a jerk to you and call you names it'll be out of my free will and with the knowledge I'll hurt you. I'm guilty of hurting your feelings and I should worry about it... but I won't feel guilty about hurting Bern's feelings if I call her names. In my layer she doesn't exist. Quote:
Note also that Krauss was already trying to take complete control of Kinzo's fortune by claiming Kinzo wasn't dead yet and wasn't willing to help his siblings to deal with their problems. I'm willing to concede that likely Krauss felt guilty toward how he acted in regards to his siblings... but he did it in a style similar to Rosa... who feels guilty about beating and neglecting Maria but this doesn't stop her from doing it... or like Kinzo... who knew he shouldn't have taken advantage of Kuwadorian Beatrice but this didn't stop him... or Rudolf... who feels guilty for switching the babies... but at best he told Kyrie and Battler the truth only after 18 years... if he managed/planned to tell it. In short I'm not trying to paint them as remorseless mosters... but I think they were pretty ugly people at the moment or toward each others or both. If they weren't they would have calmly sat on a table and supported each other right from when Kinzo died. Quote:
If your question is: did Kyrie and Rudolf really be the culprits of the murders Eva didn't witness... well, unless Battler's point of view will be revealed and will tell us something we don't know, we'll never know. For all we know it can be the others were just pretending to be dead and Kyrie and Rudolf, who were upside down after what had happened in the golden room, finding everyone else dead, ended up saying something Eva misinterpreted as them being the culprits... and Eva didn't check the curpses and blasted everyone with the bomb. Or Battler, Jessica and George could have started a love duel over Yasu after figuring that Kanon and Shannon were the same person and that George had stolen Shannon to Battler and Jessica and George died. Or Genji went mad and killed everyone. Or Kyrie's Yakuza clan best assassin secretly reached the island and killed everyone aiming to make Ange the sole heir so that the Sumadera could take control of her but then incidentally ate a slice of Gohda's almond cake without realizing it contained almonds to which he was allergic and died. We'll never know. Since the manga revealed some stuffs that weren't really supported by hints... it can be that part of the truth of Rokkenjima is impossible to figure out but just to guess if you're lucky. But we can know only if the manga will give us more to work with. Otherwise I think the implication is that Rudolf and Kyrie are the culprits of the murders we didn' see. |
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2014-04-20, 21:14 | Link #34353 | |
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Just thinking out loud
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And then if the numbers were different…? ooh boy, my mind would go into overdrive.
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2014-04-21, 08:18 | Link #34354 |
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Firstly I was thinking that Ryu sure loves his "catch me to make me stop killing" killers, and Umineko may have actually grown out of his love for a certain Higurashi story...
Secondly, I am starting to wonder how much George knew. He makes a lot of claims about their parents just doing what needs to be done to support the family, about how Battler should forgive them and how he himself has matured. Also, at one point Eva tries to bring him to the "real conference" doesn't she? And Hideoyoshi waves it off and says he should go have fun cousin time (not with you Yasu). But that means she was going to have him be there when they blackmailed Krauss... Heck, maybe everyone but Battler and Ghoda knew that Kinzo was dead. Finally, In my opinion we need to dispel with the "who could plan a mass murder" argument. We don't really know how many people were dead when the bomb went off, only that Eva thought they were all dead. What we have basically been told though, is that the killing probably started accidentally. At the very least, we can be confident that whoever killed the people probably started only after things went crazy. What I am trying to say is that we shouldn't be looking for who would plan a mass murder, because Yasu is so far the only one who has been shown to be capable of it with any consistency. A mass murder may have happened, but it was not because some genius string puller (Kyrie) laid it all out, it is because something went seriously wrong, and some broken and messed up people had things get very out of hand. George easily could have attacked someone in anger, especially if he thought his parents were both dead. |
2014-04-21, 12:44 | Link #34355 |
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While rereading Umineko I've noticed that Kanon goes to take something to cut the chain on Eva's room in the storehouse... which was supposely where the 6 corpses of the first twilight had been found and that had been closed by a new locked of whcih only Natsuhi should have the key. In short he could enter in the storehouse only with magic. We know that the chain wasn't really set but Kanon has a wire cutter with himself when Natsuhi joins the party so that can't be a lie. Is this a hint that Kanon had prepared the wire cutter in advance in some other place or we should assume that the main house have another storehouse? The manga doesn't specify where he get the wire cutter but it seems more like a huge closet inside the house... Is there any difference in the PS3? |
2014-04-21, 16:58 | Link #34357 | ||
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Of course it can also be they went in the boiler room to burn Kinzo and since they were at it took the wire cutter and then the narration said they went to the storehouse instead so that we won't immediately suspect they burned Kinzo... and the fact it says storehouse it's supposed to be a hint to understand that the scene played out differently. Last edited by jjblue1; 2014-04-21 at 17:19. |
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2014-04-21, 18:07 | Link #34358 |
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That story was also a lie in the first place, so where the cutters were isn't terribly relevant. Plus they could just be wherever the plot decides they need to be, honestly. In ep1 they were in there, doesn't mean they have to be in every story.
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2014-04-21, 19:33 | Link #34359 | |
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It becomes very obvious, really. That's why it seems so weird to have such an obvious hint. |
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2014-04-22, 03:20 | Link #34360 | |||||||
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If EP4 is unsatisfying for you, isn't that more to do with Alliance's basic structure than Battler's specific set of actions? It's barely set up as a mystery / puzzle at all, and even most of Will's solutions are kinda just "Yup, those people sure were murdered, alright. Definitely murdered, they were." Quote:
In EP3, Krauss isn't an accomplice, and his siblings are being murdered at an alarming rate. In EP7 TP, his siblings are alive and well, and they're bickering over a large (LARGE) amount of money. Are these things really more at odds with one another than the fact that Battler is very rude and thinks poorly of his father, but is still upset when he's been killed? Dang, people can be multiufaceted, when the moment's right. Quote:
With the adult relatives, we already know that they're in desperate financial straits, are willing to do bad things for their own reasons, and for the most part aren't very attached to each other, emotionally. We already know Krauss is willing to break the law, we already know Kyrolf is willing to basically steal if they can get away with it, we already know Evayoshi is willing to blackmail their own relatives. With the kids, though, they're really all portrayed as being better than all of that. George, Battler, and Jessica are basically just some really nice, well adjusted kids who more or less can get along with all their relatives, and don't hold the family headship with much regard. Eva might kill someone to be the family Head. Jessica would probs pay someone to take her place as the next one. Quote:
It's sorta like ... even if someone had a good year, if they told you they never felt a single negative emotion, or had a single hard time for 24 hours a day, 365 straight days, you'd have a hard time believing it, right? Even if you'd agree they had a great year, it feels disingenuous to say that greatness was uninterrupted for so long. Even Battler admits his game is moreso for the sake of making Ange feel better than anything more than a superficial resemblance to reality, so... Quote:
I always felt crimes had to sorta fade away to being historical footnotes before people talk about them really casually, outside of, say, documentary's or something. I watched AHS : Coven not too long ago and there was a character from the 1800s who was a serial killer, and I was surprised she was in fact a real person (well, based on one, at least), but I guess it's more "okay" to make a plot out of it since anyone related to those events has long, long since passed. In Prime, I imagive Rokkenjima would eventually become regarded the same way? Quote:
There's no mention of him stepping outside into the rain, or of the corpses, and the VN just says he grabbed the pliers and went "back up the stairs", so, with how large the mansion is sometimes implied to be, it's more likely than not that there's probably an extra room with some tools in it, moreso for the upkeep of the house than the upkeep of the garden (which the outside shed is for). Of course, it is a fantasy scene, so ... I always thought the clue was the "sudden" appearance of the magic circle, given the unreasonably short time it's supposed to have been drawn in. Last edited by Kealym; 2014-04-22 at 03:34. |
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