Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Droplet]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

My point is that, girls are just infinately better at understanding other people than guys. Lelouch's analytic dominance is characterized by both his strict adherence to absolute mental principles (Shoot and be shot, Evil to overcome evil, Don't trample the weak, etc) and his empathetic incompetence. The only way for a girl to attain Lelouch's level of both analytic ability and emotional callousness would be if she heavily rejected her inherent aptitude in understanding other people. However then, since she's consciously rejecting her empathy, there is no way to reproduce the moments when Lelouch finally gains a flash of empathetic insight, which eventually becomes his core motivation. Code Geass is a story about Lelouch learning that 'people strive for tomorrow', that 'love is power', that 'every human just wants a little piece of happiness'. However, a girl of Lelouch's age, experience, and intelligence would already know that, because of her inherent intuitive understanding of others.

Ah, I get your point now. But it's not always the case that girls are better at understanding people. Occasionally, there are sensitive guys who come along too. But you're right, Lelouch's lack of empathy, perhaps due to him being male, brings a significant part to the story (and drama) of Code Geass. If he had been naturally empathetic, then the insights that he had if he were are girl would have had less of an impact.

Well, Luluko's just for amusment. If you'd prefer her to have such a lack of empathy, I guess you could just characterize her with a 'psychotic exgirlfriend' personality.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Droplet

Well, Luluko's just for amusment. If you'd prefer her to have such a lack of empathy, I guess you could just characterize her with a 'psychotic exgirlfriend' personality.

Well, like I said, I was just tossing up some random stuff. Glad to have some really interesting opinions being thrown around.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by youngde

Gender bending has always creeped me out a bit. Don't get me wrong, guys dressing up like girls can be hilarious. Just watch 'Some Like It Hot.' It's when guys actually become girls (or vice versa) that things start getting a little weird.

Same here XD. But some people are fans of it, and those who are not really fond of (like you and me) just have to avoid that kind of discussions XD

[kittybear]

Maybe they'll resurrect lelouch with a mask and a different name.... LOL (gundam reference if you dont get the joke)

[youngde]

Originally Posted by kittybear

Maybe they'll resurrect lelouch with a mask and a different name.... LOL (gundam reference if you dont get the joke)

This is SUNRISE. It's almost a given that if Lelouch comes back, it will be like this.

[ZingFreelancer]

Damn, so many intelligent discussions going on.

Even if it is SUNRISE, don't take anything for a given. Fans have to work hard to make this happen. To deliver the message that we ain't gonna take any shit.

[Goldarmy]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

My point is that, girls are just infinately better at understanding other people than guys.

First it is infinitely, try not to highlight misspelled words. Second females aren't infinitely better at understanding other people than males. Yes they may be more prone to empathy, but you can find lots of females with low empathy.

Lelouch's analytic dominance is characterized by both his strict adherence to absolute mental principles (Shoot and be shot, Evil to overcome evil, Don't trample the weak, etc) and his empathetic incompetence.

And gender won't necessarily change this. It isn't impossible for a girl to have both high analytic ability and empathic incompetence.

The only way for a girl to attain Lelouch's level of both analytic ability and emotional callousness would be if she heavily rejected her inherent aptitude in understanding other people.

Empathy is the capacity to recognize or understand another's state of mind or emotion. It is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or to in some way experience the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself. One doesn't accept or reject empathy. And one can be low on empathy despite being female.

However then, since she's consciously rejecting her empathy, there is no way to reproduce the moments when Lelouch finally gains a flash of empathetic insight, which eventually becomes his core motivation.

Where does this reject empathy idea comes from? You don't accept or reject empathy, you are either high or low on it. And Luluko can also gain empathic insight that will eventually become her core motivation.

Code Geass is a story about Lelouch learning that 'people strive for tomorrow', that 'love is power', that 'every human just wants a little piece of happiness'. However, a girl of Lelouch's age, experience, and intelligence would already know that, because of her inherent intuitive understanding of others.

Except humans aren't homogeneous, they have different world views and someone Lelouch's age would have formed her own point of view. Plus intuitive understanding simply varies from human to human regardless of gender. So no, not every girl would know that.

[Spring_sakura111]

I miss him so bad. Oh well, theres the manga. xDD

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

Damn, so many intelligent discussions going on.

Even if it is SUNRISE, don't take anything for a given. Fans have to work hard to make this happen. To deliver the message that we ain't gonna take any shit.

Not really don't. If you thought the ending was a fail, just don't buy any merchandise. Easiest, quickest and cheapest way to get Sunrise to retcon it is to hit them in the pocket. They'll take the hint real quick.

As a matter of interest has demand for the DVD's/Blu-rays increased or decreased since Lelouch was confirmed to be deader than dead?

[ZingFreelancer]

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

Not really don't. If you thought the ending was a fail, just don't buy any merchandise. Easiest, quickest and cheapest way to get Sunrise to retcon it is to hit them in the pocket. They'll take the hint real quick.

As a matter of interest has demand for the DVD's/Blu-rays increased or decreased since Lelouch was confirmed to be deader than dead?

I dont think it was crap, it was great. I love and hate it, this is the first time something like that happened to me.
I want to buy some Code Geass stuff, but it is hard to find for European person a reliable source with OK price.

Best way is to not buy any other of Sunrise products but buy Code Geass stuff. This will deliver a message twice as fast.

I recall reading somewhere about 1 million copies of DVDs and BRs have been skipped. Dont know if it is of R2 or both.

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

I dont think it was crap, it was great. I love and hate it, this is the first time something like that happened to me.
I want to buy some Code Geass stuff, but it is hard to find for European person a reliable source with OK price.

Best way is to not buy any other of Sunrise products but buy Code Geass stuff. This will deliver a message twice as fast.

I recall reading somewhere about 1 million copies of DVDs and BRs have been skipped. Dont know if it is of R2 or both.

Ah i've got the same problem myself, but i refuse to import DVD's from the US in case the series gets released over here eventually. I mean if i imported them and then they got released over here, i wouldn't be buying them twice no matter how good the show was. Helps the Uk anime market as well hopefully increasing the number of series released over here.

Anyway fansubs do a good enough job anyway.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

First it is infinitely, try not to highlight misspelled words. Second females aren't infinitely better at understanding other people than males. Yes they may be more prone to empathy, but you can find lots of females with low empathy.

Thanks for pointing out the spelling error. The condescending advice, not so much.

I basically chose to use the word empathy to simplify the discussion. If you read my initial posts, I'm talking rather about people's perceptions and how they accrue knowledge. The distinction was between a priori analytical knowledge and a posteriori synthetic knowledge. Males generally 'learn' by manipulating abstract concepts and definitions 'intuitively'; they learn idealized 'laws' and 'truths' independant of the 'real' world. Females generally 'learn' by aggregating the perspectives and experiences of others; they synthesize general tendencies on the basis of concrete 'data'.

I tried to use the words 'empathic capacity' to describe a person's ability to aggregate synthetic knowledge. Of course there are many females with low empathy, but what I was really ascribing as a general female trait was social awareness. Females are (generally) naturally able to percieve what others are feeling (better than males): either they use that ability to sympathize (in which case they are empathic), or they use it to manipulate (not empathic), or they ignore it (also not empathic). By 'social (or interpersonal) awareness', or 'empathic capacity', I'm referring to the extent of that ability.

And gender won't necessarily change this. It isn't impossible for a girl to have both high analytic ability and empathic incompetence.

Take Yuki Nagato for an example? I've clarified what I mean by empathic capacity or incompetence above. I never claimed it was impossible, but that it takes extraordinary circumstance. I'm taking the evolutionary need and the cultural bias for females to be able to sense what others are feeling as the basis for this observation.

Empathy is the capacity to recognize or understand another's state of mind or emotion. It is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or to in some way experience the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself. One doesn't accept or reject empathy. And one can be low on empathy despite being female.

Forgive my poor choice of vocabulary. I was merely satisfied that it sufficed to communicate my thoughts to the other posters.

Where does this reject empathy idea comes from? You don't accept or reject empathy, you are either high or low on it. And Luluko can also gain empathic insight that will eventually become her core motivation.

Nunally, and less certainly Marianne/Euphemia/Cornelia, evidence that it is unlikely that Luluko would have a genetic basis for low empathic capacity. Environmentally, Lelouch/Luluko had a standard upbringing to the age of 10; his Ashford years might also be counted as normal. Lelouch's confrontation with his father (at 10 years old) is really the first instance where gender would affect his behaviour/reactions. As a boy, Lelouch went in with a strong analytic determination "Fathers should protect mothers/children". As a result of his father's words, he left with the (similarly analytic) 'law' that "To truly live is to live by one's own power". As a result, his stay with the Kururugi's in Japan was characterized by a strict adherence to this principle.

Lelouch's mental 'law' that Charles should have protected/cared for Marianne/Nunally was weak. It was borne up only by youthful arrogance, characteristically male. A female would rather be much more likely to approach Charles seeking to understand. Luluko's "Why?" would be genuinely questioning, rather than demanding. Then not only would Charles' reply be out of place, it would also not be taken as absolute. Luluko would understand "To truly live is to live by one's own power" as something the Emperor believed, not an absolute truth: she might perhaps act in accordance to that maxim to gain her father's favour, but she would not take it as a reason to reject/suspect the genuine kindness of others (Lelouch's distrust of the Ashfords, for their entire period of association, is one example).

Except humans aren't homogeneous, they have different world views and someone Lelouch's age would have formed her own point of view. Plus intuitive understanding simply varies from human to human regardless of gender. So no, not every girl would know that.

A girl Lelouch's age would have formed her own point of view, certainly. That's pretty much my point. Lelouch was convinced that "humans strive for happiness", "the power of a heart can change the world", etc. because he had no prior experience/intuition of those concepts. He was a blank slate, and thus accepted those ideas readily. A female, however, would have already percieved that this was what some people believed, and thus either adopted or rejected that point of view. This would significantly affect the effect of the 'learning experiences' Lelouch had canonically.

For example. Do you believe a female Luluko could misread Nunally's "I wish for a kind world" to "I will destroy and recreate the world, paving the way with blood and tears, even of my family" with such obliviousness that Nunally's rejection of Zero's methods would send her into a depressive, 'I want to refrain myself' state? Remember, this represents an absolute failure in interpersonal awareness, not empathy.

Also take into account that this analysis is based on the assumption that there are differences in the cognitive processes of males and females; that these differences have both an evolutionary and cultural basis; and that these differences are regular and generalized. If that is what you wish to dispute, then use this paragraph as a starting point.

[Nogitsune]

Hm... I think it has less to do with Lelouch's gender than with his mental state.
His childhood would have been traumatic enough even if the people around him hadn't constantly tried to use him and his sister for their personal gain.
He wanted to protect Nunally at any cost, made it his purpose in life and became obsessed with it.
He was never a very trusting person, and he was always too caught up in himself to realize things that seem painfully obvious to us.
I'm sure Rivalz - even though he's male - wouldn't have misread Nunally's wish and would have had a hard time understanding Lelouch's lack of interpersonal awareness.
Lelouch, however, is Lelouch.
He uses people without realizing that it goes against his very nature. Take Rolo, for example. Lelouch didn't think twice about his feelings... until the truth jumped him. Then, suddenly, his attitude changed completely.
Lelouch can be an utter, self-centered bastard the one moment - and the most understanding person you'll ever find the next.
And that's what makes him so loveable.
... But I still think he shouldn't always kill off the people who would give him the hugs he deserves. xD

[Shadowcatch]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Hm... I think it has less to do with Lelouch's gender than with his mental state.
His childhood would have been traumatic enough even if the people around him hadn't constantly tried to use him and his sister for their personal gain.
He wanted to protect Nunally at any cost, made it his purpose in life and became obsessed with it.
He was never a very trusting person, and he was always too caught up in himself to realize things that seem painfully obvious to us.
I'm sure Rivalz - even though he's male - wouldn't have misread Nunally's wish and would have had a hard time understanding Lelouch's lack of interpersonal awareness.
Lelouch, however, is Lelouch.
He uses people without realizing that it goes against his very nature. Take Rolo, for example. Lelouch didn't think twice about his feelings... until the truth jumped him. Then, suddenly, his attitude changed completely.
Lelouch can be an utter, self-centered bastard the one moment - and the most understanding person you'll ever find the next.
And that's what makes him so loveable.
... But I still think he shouldn't always kill off the people who would give him the hugs he deserves. xD

Pish Posh. We all know Lulu likes his kisses better than his hugs. Why do u think Rolo died? =O

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Shadowcatch

Pish Posh. We all know Lulu likes his kisses better than his hugs. Why do u think Rolo died? =O

xD
Well, Lulu may not be good at hugging people - but that's exactly why more people should hug him.
Just like he's probably not a very good kisser, but since people usually kiss him, no one notices. ;P
He still likes hugs more. *nods her head*

[Rydrallen]

Firstly I do not believe that a person's gender had anything to do with how he or she would perceive the world. The methodologies emphasized may have been different, but the conclusions derived would be similar.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

A girl Lelouch's age would have formed her own point of view, certainly. That's pretty much my point. Lelouch was convinced that "humans strive for happiness", "the power of a heart can change the world", etc. because he had no prior experience/intuition of those concepts. He was a blank slate, and thus accepted those ideas readily.

He accepted these ideas because they are real, not because he is a boy. Humans do strive for happiness. And the power of a heart did change the world: By portraying himself as the worst tyrant in all of history his fabricated act served to remind the future generations that the path of war is never a facilitator of world peace.

A female, however, would have already percieved that this was what some people believed, and thus either adopted or rejected that point of view. This would significantly affect the effect of the 'learning experiences' Lelouch had canonically.

Rejecting or doubting the notion of ordinary humans striving for happiness does not equate wisdom, it equates denial. Granted that everyone achieves happiness in different ways, one may be contended with living as a second class citizen so long as it is a peaceful life; while others may desire a life of equal respect and minimal discrimination enough to actually fight for it.

For example. Do you believe a female Luluko could misread Nunally's "I wish for a kind world" to "I will destroy and recreate the world, paving the way with blood and tears, even of my family" with such obliviousness that Nunally's rejection of Zero's methods would send her into a depressive, 'I want to refrain myself' state? Remember, this represents an absolute failure in interpersonal awareness, not empathy.

Lelouch never misintepret Nunnally's wishes. However he is also not so naive as to believe that world peace can be achieved through another special administrative area in Tokyo. Lelouch did what was necessary to unite the world: giving the world a common enemy.

While plunging Nunnally into depression is regrettable, it's insignificant compared to Lelouch's greater goal of facilitating world peace.

Lelouch accepted the reality that, in a world where war is rampant, it takes more than 'a gentle heart' and 'complete innocence' to facilitate peace, and hence willingly stained his hands with blood (including his own) for the greater purpose of achieving world peace.

Also take into account that this analysis is based on the assumption that there are differences in the cognitive processes of males and females; that these differences have both an evolutionary and cultural basis; and that these differences are regular and generalized. If that is what you wish to dispute, then use this paragraph as a starting point.

The differences in the cognitive processes across genders are not significant enough to cause a divergence in the conclusion one would arrive at given the vivid experiences and evidences shown in the world of CG.

In fact, Nunnally herself planned to facilitate peace by concentrating the world's hatred on Damoscles. And to achieve this she fired nukes towards the Britannian forces, illustrating that in the end Nunnally finally realized that the task of facilitating world peace calls for a price greater than 'just being kind and gentle'.

Given that both Nunnally (a girl) and Lelouch (a boy) ultimately reached the same conclusion on how to effectively facilitate world peace on their own, your hypothesis of gender differences is brittle as best.

[bladeofdarkness]

actually nunnaly was acting based not on her desire to bring about world peace
but her desire to stop the person who she loves most from doing the terrible things he had been doing
its more about guilt then anything else (which is easily found in anyone,regardless of gender)

[Tiran86]

Apparently it was confirmed Lelouch dies in the end. Can someone tell me when and how it was confirmed?

[Shadowcatch]

Originally Posted by Tiran86

Apparently it was confirmed Lelouch dies in the end. Can someone tell me when and how it was confirmed?

In an interview with Okuchi, he stated Lelouch dieing was the price he had to pay for using the Geass. Also there was a list of the dead, and Lelouch Vi Britannia was on that list. Also check out http://www.animepaper.net/gallery/wa...ass/item81314/

[Lelouch Vi Britannia]

Bleh, if I hadn't read the first part of your message, I could have thought Lelouch vi Britannia is dead but Lelouch Lamperouge is alive ! :P