2014-06-10, 00:46 | Link #34501 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Age: 33
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That does leave to wonder, why the sudden difference after he woke up? Is it possible that Ikuko knew who Tohya was by that point? P.S. What is the correct spelling for Tohya? I'm getting different variations everywhere I go. Last edited by Void_Heart; 2014-06-10 at 00:51. Reason: Spelling Errors |
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2014-06-10, 07:12 | Link #34502 | ||
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We also have the VN info that the knowledge of his true identity and the truth of Rokkenjima drove Tôya to the brink of suicide...we will see if this is further explored in the manga, but that could imply that he was actually not telling Ikuko anything about the truth either. Though her ability to speak in Red that Eva's diary contains the truth implies that Tôya told her something or that she puzzled it together. But with Tôya actually changing after remembering the truth and keeping things even from Ikuko it could explain the plot of Chiru a lot better. Quote:
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2014-06-10, 09:41 | Link #34503 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Age: 33
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Originally, I was referring to Ikuko's change after reading confessions. What changed her, not Tôya? My confusion regarding this is centered around these: Who has access to Legend and Turn? If we have Confessions, If Meta Battler is Tôya, the why struggle with those two, before writing the others, given that he had an answer book in the real world at the time? Did Tôya write End of The Golden Witch, after reading Confessions, or before and altered it after knowing the truth? Last edited by Void_Heart; 2014-06-10 at 09:43. Reason: Clarification |
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2014-06-10, 11:14 | Link #34504 | ||||
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He has an answer book in a way, but it doesn't really answer the question what happened on the island, especially if he doesn't really remember the events of that day. Right now it appears almost as if EP1-5 happened in Tôya's head even before he actually had a chance to read Confession. Quote:
The scene where he lies defeated and a ghostly Beato comes and saves him could as well be him reading Confession...or figuring it out before actually reading it. |
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2014-06-10, 14:07 | Link #34505 | |||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Is there any chance you'll feel like translating also the past/future chapters? The manga is revealing itself so much better than the VN I can't really wait to know what it says in details... though I'll understand if you'll say no as it's a lot of work and I understend it would be asking too much. I'm sort of impressed by how I'm liking Ep 8 manga version though. For me Ep 8 VN version wasn't that great but in it's manga version it's one of my fave! Quote:
In a way it resembles murder on the Orient Express, where everybody lies, but on the opposite side it's much harder to think people would agree lying in such way and then be killed just the same. I guess part of what makes Umineko hard for me is that there are some things I find hard to believe. Sure, the author in the end confirmed we should just swallow them and I do but my feelings don't reall waver much. I still find it hard to believe. Maybe in some cases I'm missing something in my understanding of the characters. Quote:
Because it's true it looks like Maria lead Rosa outside on purpose but the way Rosa and Maria were murdered made it look more like an incident during an argument (Rosa) and an istinctive act to cover up what had happened (Maria) than a planned murder. Quote:
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In Ep 3 instead Eva ended up causing facts about which she wanted to push the blame on Beatrice so things got messed up. This however made harder to figure out what's behind Sayo's actions in Ep 3. If we assume that Eva rightfully solved the epitaph then according to Confession Sayo should have stopped murdering people and started serving Eva. So it could work she kept pretending of being dead and murders were carried out by Eva & Co but then it becomes harder to figure why Sayo ended up breaking her own rules and killing George, something Eva surely didn't want as she might have killed Nanjo to please Eva but George? Unless George committed suicide which I doubt Sayo should have no reason to kill him even if he were to discover she faked her own death. Also this would imply, as Eva doesn't suspect Sayo, that Eva doesn't know she was pretending to be dead. The other option is that Eva didn't solve the epitaph but was handed the solution in exchange of her playing the role of accomplice (in Our Confession we see Beatrice showing Krauss and Natsuhi the gold... maybe she did the same here?) but had to keep her allegiance with Sayo as a secret so when Rosa becomes a threat to it she has a argument with her and ends up killing her and Maria which causes Kyrie to grow suspicious and so on. Meanwhile as no one has solved the epitaph yet Sayo can decide to go around and kill people as well. Honestly, I liked more how the solutions for Ep 5 & 6 were handed than how Umineko handed the solutions for Ep 1, 2, 3 & 4... but maybe they'll be discussed in the battle between Bern and Battler? Can a girl hope? Quote:
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2014-06-20, 09:12 | Link #34506 |
a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 54
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In episode 3, the problem was Eva kept it secret that she solved the epitaph, and Sayo was forced to find ways to incorporate the new killings into her narrative without knowing why they had started.
She didn't figure it out until too late, and left the pin number behind to be found after she finally did. You can't stop the ritual by solving the epitaph if Sayo doesn't know you solved it... Similarly Eva didn't know what Sayo's game was, and was genuinely alarmed and confused when she came back to the mansion to find the scene altered to have the stakes added. She saw the shootout as it really happened, and had her own cover story, but then this...?! --- As for episode 8 and the manga, I'm still skeptical about how the Ikuko/Tohya story is being presented...I won't rule out taking it at face value, but it just feels like too many coincidences and hints that there's another layer as yet unrevealed. It might not be Ikuko=Yasu, but I still expect some more layers all the same. I do like the parallels in the manga (and prior "Our Confessions") releases to the actual "simulating And Then There Were None" scenario and meta-scenario. We had our unexplained Island Mystery, and now, years later, the bottles are washing up on the shore... I almost wonder if, also in parallel, the manga version of Ikuko WILL decide to reveal the diary contents to the public this time around, while the former Ikuko in the VN represented R07's own desire to keep the mystery in the catbox for the time being... as it is, we've seen Sayo's (or is that R07's again?) desire to have her catbox fantasy world expanded on in so many directions by all us goats since then, both in-game and beyond. Metaverses within Metaverses.
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2014-06-23, 08:30 | Link #34507 | ||
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It's that time of the month again...
Yes, the next chapter of EP8 is out, and while it doesn't deliver AS MUCH new content as the last few chapters brought us, it does bring some new light into things and especially makes the characters (AGAIN) better written, more streamlined and less plot-holey all throughout their development. Spoiler for EP8 Chapter 26:
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Ch26 now pretty much already set up the "I'm not Battler anymore and knowing all this I can impossibly face that girl" plot for the final Tohya reveal. Also, Lambda saying that Ange is a spirit body kind of leads me to the idea again that ALL of the Episodes are more or less fiction (as, the stories seen through the eyes of Battler and Ange) and that really only the Tea Parties or ??? elements take us a little outside of it. Not that the events of Ange's life in EP4 wouldn't be true, but they would be as much of a could-have-been scenario as the island-plots (both just minus the fantasy sparkles). Quote:
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2014-06-27, 18:40 | Link #34508 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Since I couldn't find spoilers for Ep 7 & 8 I was thinking they just skipped this month of Umineko on the magazines... Also yes, again the manga did a better job. Eva admitted she didn't do it merely because she's a pure soul but also for her self preservation which makes her less victim and more... well, Eva. I like how Beato reproached Battler for making such a messy game (I've noticed the irony of the whole 'ehy Beato you made your game too confusing so that's bad... but who cares less make mine even more confusing') even if honestly, in the manga Battler seemed to be a lot more pushy than willing to accept that Ange could give a peek at the diary. Or better... he seems to know he has no right to stop her but he'll try his hardest to find a way to stop her just the same. In a way it's an interesting battle between the mind (which knows Ange has a right to do it) and the heart (who knows Ange will be hurt if she does it and refuses to let her be hurt). And this ties nicely with the reproach Erika made. Tohya refused to meet Ange and tried to send her messages in obscure ways so he only has himself to blame for failing to deliver his point. But in a way it's sad. If Sayo's dead she never had the chance to deliver a message to Ange or try to, nor to think there was a message she needed to deliver to her. In a way though Battler's idea fit him. Through all Umineko he tried to pick up the nicest explanation for other people's actions. It comes pretty natural that he would want Ange to get a chance to see things from his point of view, to see how everyone was actually a nice person who somehow ended up acting the wrong way due to circumstances. Battler knows his family is not all sunshines and rainbows but he decides to try and see what's good in them. The ugly parts are yes, part of them, but not the whole, nor what's really important to them. Ange had a much more black and white vision probably due to her being younger. Eva had to be purely evil, her immediate family had to be purely good but she was afraid they could be purely evil as well and the press pushed in this direction. Battler tried to push toward the opposite extreme, as if this would balance things when instead normally this only confuses someone more as he's presented with two completely discording visions. Probably a fictional yer greyer portrayal of his family would have worked better. I like Ange's reasoning and her wish to understand so as not to continue the chain of misfortune even if those words still reveals a maturity that's just... not Ange... unless the visual helps to deliver them in a more Ange-like way? In a way I'd like to give a better look at that one truth. Ep 7 never explained what happened to Battler and Eva must not have found his body nor known if he decided to support Rudolf and Kyrie. Did she thought he was killed? Did she thought he was Rudolf and Kyrie's accomplice and escaped to her wrath? Did she abandon him to die or did she try to kill him too? And was Eva the one with whom Battler was escaping? According to which you chose Eva's actions toward him take a quite different light. In a way it would fit if Eva was the one trying to escape with Battler then he doubted her and she tried to kill him as it would be close to what happened in Ep 3 in a way. I also like how the revelation for Battler's body surviving and Battler becoming Tohya is set up. If we mirror Battler's talk with what happened in Prime when faced with the tales Tohya figured his true identity is Battler but that he isn't Battler anymore so he doesn't want to be Ange's brother but at the same time he thinks it's cruel to tell her so. However he doesn't wish her harm and still tried to deliver a message to her. It's also interesting how Ange admits she ended up with 'no goal' which is similar to how Battler was in Umineko. He claimed more than once he lived his life aimlessly. Oh and Lambda is the best as usual. It's a pity Umineko didn't have more extra stories. I think Lambda would have deserved more space. Quote:
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2014-07-04, 01:16 | Link #34509 | ||||
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Btw. I found it interesting again how it is Eva's last words to Ange from EP3 that open the play here...makes an interesting hint towards where to place it on the "Ange-timeline". Quote:
I wouldn't mind her to turn out to be actually kind of a bad person in the way that she didn't care much for the pain she caused Tohya and Ange...or that she did it unknowingly...but I'd also just like to know a little bit more about what her motivations were. The explanation that she really is God-mode Featherine inserting herself into the world of men would be similarly disappointing as Hanyû suddenly being there in Higurashi's Matsuribayashi...something that irks me till this day. |
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2014-07-04, 16:30 | Link #34510 | ||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Well, shame on me but I like tragic stories as well. It's just Ryukishi went so overboard with Sayo it's not even funny anymore. I understand the moral might also be, 'okay, your life was horrible but since you gave up you don't deserve someone to save you and give you a happy ending of some sort' but really, how much an human can take before giving up? Her life is a giant pile of misfortune and while yes, giving up won't make it any better, which insurance there was it could go any better? She seems unluckier than Donald Duck, one starts to wonder about how if she had left the island and tried to live happily probably the ship would have sinked, if she had remained there chances are a volcano would have eroupted blasting her away. Quote:
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I also wouldn't want Ikuko to be a new Hanyu in human world. Just wondering since you've access to much more original material than us, do you think Ryukishi planned to give all the answers he's giving (well, more or less) or that his original plans when the other media started working with Umineko were to release exactly the same amount of info as in the VN and then he changed his mind along the way? |
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2014-07-05, 14:43 | Link #34511 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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2014-07-06, 07:34 | Link #34513 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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In the absence of the music thread, I think this is the best one to post this in. I hereby present my best effort at the terrifying witch's challenge that is the lyrics of Happy Maria. I've spent far, far too long listening to the two versions of this thing and trying to make sense of it. Madness lies this way.
The official lyrics undoubtedly exist somewhere but can't be found, except for some small fragments on some promotional images for one CD. Those lyric fragments are as follow: Quote:
I'm going to do this in coloured text style, because for the life of me I'm still not sure about much of it. I might need to do some corrections later too. Colour key Black text = I'm not really sure, but here's a guess anyway. Blue text = I think this is a reasonable guess. Red text = I believe this is probably the right line. Gold text = This is from the fragments of the official lyrics (albeit with corrected spellings for "brekaer", "brock' en, and "wich"). Happy Maria My witch is golden dreamer On practical gold a wing Bursting on the creature With bloody old September Witch is golden dreamer It's magical gold a chef I'm gonna rest in fire Oh magical breaking heart In the promised party The very very thing Is he come breaking the darkness, chosen prince Your master crazy That every every thing In a wall I feel it my broken under show In a witch's golden prayer From Maria's world a shriek You gonna rest in fire With bloody old December In a witch's golden prayer From Maria's world away Bursting on the creature To magical show we go Sing a song of silence, Of greedy greedy love Is he come breaking the garpy show me a way Your master crazy That every every thing Out the way you're breaking my broken under show Ah witch's golden breaker On practical gold a wing Bursting on the creature With bloody old September Witch's golden breaker It's magical gold a chef I'm gonna rest in fire Oh magical breaking heart In the promised party The very very thing Is he come breaking the darkness, chosen prince Your master crazy That every every thing In a wall I feel it my broken under show Ah witch's golden sorcer From Maria's world a shriek You gonna rest in fire With final October In a witch's golden sorcer From Maria's world away Bursting on the creature To magical show we go Killing kill in silence, The bloody lonely witch Is he come breaking the garpy show me a way Your master crazy That every every thing Out the way you're breaking my broken under show Last edited by GoldenLand; 2014-07-06 at 08:26. |
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2014-07-07, 09:37 | Link #34514 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
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I'll make an attempt too. There are some parts that are clearly different. Also I think I found the "ann' law" passage you mentioned. I am not sure about "chef" though. I am not sure if it could be "ship" after all... also if "sorcer" is supposed to refer to "sorcery" in general, though I think "saucer" (ALIENS!) would be plausible too in a way...
My witch is golden dreamer On practical golden wing Blossom on the creature With bloody old September Witch is golden dreamer It's magical golden chef I'm gonna burst in fire Oh magical beating heart In the golden party The very very thing Is he come breaking the darkness, chosen prince? Your master crazy, Then every every thing In a wall I feel it, my broken under show Your witch's golden prayer From Maria's wand a shriek You gonna burst in fire With bloody old December In a witch's golden prayer From Maria's golden wing Blossom on the creature The magical show we go Sing a song in silent, The gleamy greed and law Is he come breaking the garpy show men? Your master crazy, Then every every thing Out the way you're breaking my broken under show Our witch's golden breaker On practical golden wing Blossom on the creature With bloody old September Witch's golden breaker It's magical golden chef I'm gonna burst in fire Oh magical beating heart In the golden party The very very thing Is he come breaking the darkness, chosen prince? Your master crazy, Then every every thing In a wall I feel it, my broken under show Our witch's golden sorcer From Maria's wand a shriek You gonna burst in fire With final October In a witch's golden sorcer From Maria's golden wing Blossom on the creature The magical show we go Clearly killing silent, The broken lonely witch Is he come breaking the garpy show men? Your master crazy, Then every every thing Out the way you're breaking my broken under show |
2014-07-11, 11:01 | Link #34516 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Yasu-Clair in Ep 7 is mostly a living representation of Sayo's confession. In the manga is said she also wrote that down. In a way Clair is the personification of that confession. The Clair of the Teaparty might instead be the personification of Eva's diary. Beato the elder sister of Ep 6 represents the Sayo that had fun playing pranks and scaring people pretending Beatrice was wandering through the island. Beato the younger sister is... more complicate. She was created as the embodiement of the rules of the gamoboard and I guess this means she was supposed to be the one that gets blamed when someothing mysterious happen but she's not just that. She's also the representation of the 'not so discharged feelings' Sayo had for Battler. Although in a way she can also be the representation of the Sayo Battler knew 6 years ago. She also works as a parallel with the relation between Kinzo and KuwadorianBeatrice only it shows what Kinzo should have done instead than what he did. In truth Kinzo forced Kuwadorian Beatrice to become her mother and then forced himself on her, denying her of her own self and ignoring how she perceived him as her father. Battler, although hurt by the loss of Beatrice and also longing to have her back through the new Beatrice, in the end accepted the new Beatrice was a different person and that he shouldn't force his feelings on her but accept her for who she was and respect it, if she views him as a father. As a result, Beatrice takes confidence and shift her perception from 'Battler as her "father"' to 'Battler as the man she loves' and, although Battler remains clinging to the memory of the past Beatrice, they can have their own love story in the end (I guess it heped they weren't really father and daughter and Beatrice already loved Battler even if she called him "father"). |
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2014-07-12, 11:14 | Link #34517 | |||
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Age: 33
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