(L) Dungeon ni Deai o Motomeru no wa Machigatte Iru Darou ka (LN)

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

I wonder why most of the talk in this thread is about shipping. This is really not complicated.

Bell loves Ais but Ais doesn't love him, she has her goal in mind and Bell is not a suitable partner for her because he is weak. However she has an interest in him unlike with the other guys. So, if Bell were to become strong enough he'd be a suitable partner. Which is what he is trying to do since the first volume. Stronger males are more suitable for her but she isn't interested in them. If strength was the only requirement she'd try to be with Ottar.

don't know if this was you're intention, but this comes off as really shallow on aiz's part if true, though admittedly not intentionally. or to be precise, she really doesn't understand the concept of love if these are the parameters it would take for bell to get to her. and i thought ichika was bad

and yeah i agree with somethingdark's(or whoever said this) overall point that this level of denseness is just an artificial plot device to delay romance development, a crutch so many harem LN keep resorting too. but thankfully i dont give a shit about the main ships, just give me more welf x heph, badass loki team fights, badass ryu adventurers and badass hestia team fights.

[Kuroageha]

The flaw in your posts us Aiz actual DO KNOWS what is love so she isn't being dense or ignorant about it.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

The flaw in your posts us Aiz actual DO KNOWS what is love so she isn't being dense or ignorant about it.

well clearly she has more to learn about love if her only grasp of it amounts to "Muh he's a kawaii little bunny but muh not strong enough." you cant fully grasp an something you've never experienced.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

well clearly she has more to learn about love if her only grasp of it amounts to "Muh he's a kawaii little bunny but muh not strong enough." you cant fully grasp an something you've never experienced.

The flaw in your argument here is that you're pre-supposing that she has feelings for Bell, that she doesn't understand.

Aiz does know what love is, from an intellectual standpoint, and what she feels for Bell isn't at that point yet, for many reasons including her own personal issues and Bell not being strong enough to be considered.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Endscape

The flaw in your argument here is that you're pre-supposing that she has feelings for Bell, that she doesn't understand.

Aiz does know what love is, from an intellectual standpoint, and what she feels for Bell isn't at that point yet, for many reasons including her own personal issues and Bell not being strong enough to be considered.

no i am not nor have i ever said as much

@the bold, hence why i said she doesn't fully grasp the concept of love as love has more to do to it than the intellectual standpoint. it's not a matter of her having feelings she doesn't understand, which i agree with. it's a matter of not having said feelings to begin with as she has never experienced said feelings, as i said in the previous post.

edit-to elaborate, she has never felt these feelings for a boy and has yet to feel them with bell. she may understand love in a literal sense, but the idea of bell having to become strong in a physical sense just for those feelings to develop is IMO quite shallow.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

no i am not nor have i ever said as much

@the bold, hence why i said she doesn't fully grasp the concept of love as love has more to do to it than the intellectual standpoint. it's not a matter of her having feelings she doesn't understand, which i agree with. it's a matter of not having said feelings to begin with as she has never experienced said feelings, as i said in the previous post.

edit-to elaborate, she has never felt these feelings for a boy and has yet to feel them with bell. she may understand love in a literal sense, but the idea of bell having to become strong in a physical sense just for those feelings to develop is IMO quite shallow.

That is what you re mistaking, even if she like you say didnt a god can se through them, she might lie herself out of ignorance but she cant mislead gods.
Easy as that.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

That is what you re mistaking, even if she like you say didnt a god can se through them, she might lie herself out of ignorance but she cant mislead gods.
Easy as that.

it's like you aren't reading what i'm saying at all. and please fix ur comment as i can hardly make out your point.

i'm fully aware that she has no feelings for bell at the moment, what i find shallow is this idea that these feelings can only develop through bell becoming more powerful.

[SeaDam]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

it's like you aren't reading what i'm saying at all. and please fix ur comment as i can hardly make out your point.

i'm fully aware that she has no feelings for bell at the moment, what i find shallow is this idea that these feelings can only develop through bell becoming more powerful.

Where is that implied anyway?

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by SeaDam

Where is that implied anyway?

see the last page and a half of discussion.

[Kuroageha]

Even if Bell becomes powerful nothing can assure she will any feeling for Bell.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Even if Bell becomes powerful nothing can assure she will any feeling for Bell.

well then point this out from the get go.

the way you and others were phrasing this topic was misleading;

(Bell loves Ais but Ais doesn't love him, she has her goal in mind and Bell is not a suitable partner for her because he is weak. However she has an interest in him unlike with the other guys. So, if Bell were to become strong enough he'd be a suitable partner.)

this gives the false impression that whether or not she would begin to develop feelings for bell is tied strictly to his strength development.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

don't know if this was you're intention, but this comes off as really shallow on aiz's part if true, though admittedly not intentionally. or to be precise, she really doesn't understand the concept of love if these are the parameters it would take for bell to get to her. and i thought ichika was bad

and yeah i agree with somethingdark's(or whoever said this) overall point that this level of denseness is just an artificial plot device to delay romance development, a crutch so many harem LN keep resorting too. but thankfully i dont give a shit about the main ships, just give me more welf x heph, badass loki team fights, badass ryu adventurers and badass hestia team fights.

Don't you find it's shallow because you are underestimating her goal? And what is the problem if it's shallow anyway? You are implying that she is actively seeking of a partner. She is not, she has no time to think about this because all she needs deems necessary for her goal is strength, to the point she is fighting like a berserker since she's a little kid. Love is far from being one of her priorities The latter half of my post was to show that, she isn't trying to hit on Ottar or other strong males., it's the least of her worries. She has her issues and obviously there will be more developments in the story.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Don't you find it's shallow because you are underestimating her goal? And what is the problem if it's shallow anyway? You are implying that she is actively seeking of a partner. She is not, she has no time to think about this because all she needs deems necessary for her goal is strength, to the point she is fighting like a berserker since she's a little kid. Love is far from being one of her priorities The latter half of my post was to show that, she isn't trying to hit on Ottar or other strong males., it's the least of her worries. She has her issues and obviously there will be more developments in the story.

1 i've never said anything about her goal, much less underestimated it

2 there's no problem of this being shallow for you, but i feel otherwise. if the author has to come up with a reason to delay development in this regard, imposing a narrow-minded definition of how love develops for aiz isn't ideal IMO. it's perfectly fine that she's not focused on love, but for her to suddenly be focused on love later down the line just because bell's stats went up would be horribly contrived and make her look worse as a character.

3 I never implied that at all, what is with these straw-men implications being throwing around here? in case you didn't understand what i was implying, see this.

"i'm fully aware that she has no feelings for bell at the moment, what i find shallow is this idea that these feelings can only develop through bell becoming more powerful."

kuroaheha already conceded that this idea isn't the case, so there's nothing left to argue about unless you truly think the idea is ok, do you?

[lord_ragnos]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Even if Bell becomes powerful nothing can assure she will any feeling for Bell.

That is kind of true. I'll expand on this.
From what I have read in the manga of her side story Sword of Oratoria, Aiz already has "Feelings" for Bell. Granted, they haven't reached the point of love yet. However, she has taken a big interest in Bell. Whether it is because of his fast growth or not is not exactly the issue. The issue is that she has an interest in him, which is something that she hasn't felt for any other man (that I have seen at least. Correct me if I am wrong).
The main thing that is stopping Aiz from falling in love with anyone, is her seeking to get stronger. From what I have read so far, the reason why she is wanting to get stronger hasn't been revealed yet, but I do have some theories. Currently, Aiz feels love will make her weaker, or take away her current reason for living. Also, falling in love will be a hinderance to becoming stronger as it would take time away from her going into the dungeon, also it might distract her.
That said, even if Bell gets stronger, it might not make her love him. That alone would never be enough for anyone. This is because she will still be seeking to get stronger and that is her reason for living. Also, when you think of it, she might even get jealous of him and start to hate him (or rather herself) if he gets stronger too quickly and catches up to her strength. Basically, Bell needs to do something that catches her of guard and steal her heart. Basically he needs to save her, and through that, become her hero.
When you think of it, this is what Bell was told when he was being brought up by his grandfather Zeus. Meet Girls in the Dungeon. Save the Girl. Be a Hero.

[lord_ragnos]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

1 i've never said anything about her goal, much less underestimated it

2 there's no problem of this being shallow for you, but i feel otherwise. if the author has to come up with a reason to delay development in this regard, imposing a narrow-minded definition of how love develops for aiz isn't ideal IMO. it's perfectly fine that she's not focused on love, but for her to suddenly be focused on love later down the line just because bell's stats went up would be horribly contrived and make her look worse as a character.

3 I never implied that at all, what is with these straw-men implications being throwing around here? in case you didn't understand what i was implying, see this.

"i'm fully aware that she has no feelings for bell at the moment, what i find shallow is this idea that these feelings can only develop through bell becoming more powerful."

kuroaheha already conceded that this idea isn't the case, so there's nothing left to argue about unless you truly think the idea is ok, do you?

You are right. If Aiz only falls in love with Bell because he gets stronger, then that would be bad for her character development. She would be very shallow. However, because of this, that would never happen. Strength alone wont be enough for her to fall in love with Bell. Because she is still going to be seeking to get stronger and sees love as a hindrance to that goal. She may even start to get jealous of him and take it out on him because she would start to see her own weakness. She would start to hate herself - "Bell has caught up to me, why aren't I getting any stronger?". When this happens, I can see her start to pull away from Bell. Bell will be confused etc.
Because Aiz isn't and doesn't want to look for love, Bell needs to do something that will catch her of guard and steal her heart. This may end up being Bell saving her. However, because she would be hating her own weakness, this may not be enough for Bell to win her over. I think what would need to happen is there to be an understanding created about eachother. Basically, Bell needs to learn about why Aiz is wanting to become stronger and the Loki Familia may end up telling him this. Also, I think Aiz needs to know about Bell's Realis Phrase ability so she can understand Bell. Bell can't tell her this himself because he doesnt know about it yet

[Zefyris]

Originally Posted by lord_ragnos

I disagree. Bete is an arrogant person who thinks only the strong should survive, which can't hold true because everyone has to start at the bottom. It also doesn't hold true for Aiz. Though she desires to become stronger, the fact that she is willing to help weaker people without as second thought, makes her values conflict with Betes. Bete has most likely been an adventurer for many years. Considering he is weaker than Aiz, and Aiz is described as special you can expect him to have been an adventurer longer than Aiz. It took Aiz 9 years to reach level 6 and it was said that she was stuck at level 5 with little improvement for quite a while. Now even if you considered that she valued strength in a man, which is probably true, then you would still have to see that she is considering Bell. Bell has reached level 3 in 2.5 months, when it should take others at least 2 years to reach (I say this because it took Aiz 1 year to reach lvl 2 and she was the record holder). Going from Bells growth rate, he should catch up to Aiz at the end of the year. Going from this Bell will reach lvl 6 (at least) in 1 year where it took Aiz who is special 9 years to reach. Bell will truely be strong very soon and will eclipse Bete. Bete sees this aswell. It is easy to see that Aiz would be mesmerised by Bell. Not only this but just seeing or being with Bell makes Aiz feel things she hasn't felt before, or at least not in a long time. Aiz has a black fire of desperation inside of her making her want to get stronger. This is crushing for Aiz and while Riveria is able to make that flame smaller and make Aiz feel better, just being with Bell made it disappear completely. Being with Bell, or just thinking about him, made Aiz remember her parents, which she hasn't done in years. Which made Aiz think of Heroes and finding her Hero. Thus Bell is better for her than Bete. Not only that but it doesn't matter how long Bete has been trying to win her over. In the end, if Aiz doesn't think of him that way then that is the end of the discussion. However, it looks like she is starting to fall for Bell.

However, and this part is bugging me because I have a feeling that it is going to turn out this way.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

I have a feeling that Bell and Ais are brother and sister... I hope it doesnt turn out like this, like in Muv Luv Total eclipse. Look at the picture of Albert Wallenstein - Aiz's father. He looks just like Bell (though we don't know the colour of Alberts hair or eyes. Bell also said that Albert had relations with Celdia (queen of elves. When this was mentioned, Bell also named off a bunch of other women. This info is from DanMachi wiki so i'm just saying what is said on there because the translations aren't out yet. However, it is possible that Albert had a Harem of his own or could have been with other women behind Aria's (Aiz's Mothers) back. It is possible that Bell and Aiz are half bother/sisters. I hope this isn't true. It would suck so badly. Have them fall in love with each other, only to find that they are brother and sister. Though I wonder if they will continue a romance even if that was the case.

Bell cannot be more than half-brother of Ais because he cannot have both parents identical. Why ? Because he doesn't have any affinity to wind like Ais does. If you don't understand why I'm saying this, you'll understand in SO 5.

And ike peoples said before me,you clearly are NOT understanding Bete. Also, if not for Bete, Bell wouldn't have been so determined to level up fast, and Lefiya wouldn't have evolved like that.

Originally Posted by Somethindarker

As of right now Ais isn't in love with Bell she's just drawn to him and doesn't want to be with him romantically, as the scene with her and Hestia in (I think) volume 9. Bell admires her more than he loves her, he wants to fight alongside her or save her(can't remember specifically).

It's volume 8

Originally Posted by lord_ragnos

I've been reading the manga of both the main and sword oratoria and this is what I have got so far. While you're most likely right that she isn't in love with him, she is has experienced feelings for him she hasn't felt before.

As for Bete you, I have been reading the manga which isn't ahead enough compared to the LN. That is why I have been reading wiki but they havent said much about bete on there.
Can you guys read Japanese? Or do you have a source that has translated the LN into english?

Personally, yes, I can. And I have to say that Bete is quite a likeable character in SO.
As for Ais, no romantic feeling (hidden/not understood by her included, there is absolutely no such feelings at all)

Originally Posted by Echizen777

I wonder why most of the talk in this thread is about shipping. This is really not complicated.

Bell loves Ais but Ais doesn't love him, she has her goal in mind and Bell is not a suitable partner for her because he is weak. However she has an interest in him unlike with the other guys. So, if Bell were to become strong enough he'd be a suitable partner. Which is what he is trying to do since the first volume. Stronger males are more suitable for her but she isn't interested in them. If strength was the only requirement she'd try to be with Ottar.

Ottarl is in love (like almost all of Freya's gigantic reverse har- I mean familia) with Freya though.

Originally Posted by kidstandout

well then point this out from the get go.

the way you and others were phrasing this topic was misleading;

(Bell loves Ais but Ais doesn't love him, she has her goal in mind and Bell is not a suitable partner for her because he is weak. However she has an interest in him unlike with the other guys. So, if Bell were to become strong enough he'd be a suitable partner.)

this gives the false impression that whether or not she would begin to develop feelings for bell is tied strictly to his strength development.

Simply because as long as he's not strong enough he cannot be his partner, and that for the first time when strong enough he could be a potential one. It doesn't mean however that Ais would change her view of him after protecting him for so long, for example. But as long as he doesn't AT LEAST fit that condition, nothing can happen here.

Originally Posted by kidstandout

1 i've never said anything about her goal, much less underestimated it

2 there's no problem of this being shallow for you, but i feel otherwise. if the author has to come up with a reason to delay development in this regard, imposing a narrow-minded definition of how love develops for aiz isn't ideal IMO. it's perfectly fine that she's not focused on love, but for her to suddenly be focused on love later down the line just because bell's stats went up would be horribly contrived and make her look worse as a character.

No one said such thing would happen. The author hasn't wrote anything on this, you just misinterpreted peoples' post in this thread.

[KnightShade]

^ there were misinterpretations on both sides of alley, not just myself. Most of you failed to mention that strength wouldnt be the only factor, and im only pointing that out to prevent others from perceiving aiz negatively due to said omission of context.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by lord_ragnos

You are right. If Aiz only falls in love with Bell because he gets stronger, then that would be bad for her character development. She would be very shallow. However, because of this, that would never happen. Strength alone wont be enough for her to fall in love with Bell. Because she is still going to be seeking to get stronger and sees love as a hindrance to that goal. She may even start to get jealous of him and take it out on him because she would start to see her own weakness. She would start to hate herself - "Bell has caught up to me, why aren't I getting any stronger?". When this happens, I can see her start to pull away from Bell. Bell will be confused etc.
Because Aiz isn't and doesn't want to look for love, Bell needs to do something that will catch her of guard and steal her heart. This may end up being Bell saving her. However, because she would be hating her own weakness, this may not be enough for Bell to win her over. I think what would need to happen is there to be an understanding created about eachother. Basically, Bell needs to learn about why Aiz is wanting to become stronger and the Loki Familia may end up telling him this. Also, I think Aiz needs to know about Bell's Realis Phrase ability so she can understand Bell. Bell can't tell her this himself because he doesnt know about it yet

Then we are all on the same page now. Hopefully it plays out similar to what you suggest albeit sooner rather then later.

[RDNexus]

Most likely, it'll be later. Why? Typical plot reasons.

[Nozomu Itoshiki]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

^ there were misinterpretations on both sides of alley, not just myself. Most of you failed to mention that strength wouldnt be the only factor, and im only pointing that out to prevent others from perceiving aiz negatively due to said omission of context.

No, is only you going against everyone with more knowledge than you about the story. It is so hard to be less stubborn and just assume you were wrong from the start?

@Zefyris, about Ottar I know he has really strong feelings for Freya but it is really accurate call that love and not obsession? sometimes I feel like the only thing on his head is Freya.