Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Shadowcatch]

Originally Posted by leechbox

Proof please?

http://animeotaku.animeblogger.net/2...louchs-coffin/

There is also an interview in which Okuchi states he is dead. Don't have it though. Also a list of the dead characters, and Lelouch Vi Britannia is on it. So yeah, he's gone for good.

[RisArk]

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/3955/000dhwrrjy1.jpg

[leechbox]

Originally Posted by Shadowcatch

http://animeotaku.animeblogger.net/2...louchs-coffin/

There is also an interview in which Okuchi states he is dead. Don't have it though. Also a list of the dead characters, and Lelouch Vi Britannia is on it. So yeah, he's gone for good.

But why did he have to die... *crys*

[Shadowcatch]

Originally Posted by leechbox

But why did he have to die... *crys*

It was the price he had to pay, and Lelouch was happy to do it. The only thing I'm sad about with that ending is the ambiguity of the romance. Wish he would admit if he had a freaking crush on any of the girls (hopefully C.C.!).

[ZingFreelancer]

He is not dead, it's all a lie!!!

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Jaime Kordek

I'm not saying that they're the same, I'm saying they are both capable of the same action. Maybe it's more likely for a male, but that doesn't preclude a female from being capable of it.

That's not quite true. Take Olympic weight-lifting for an example. The difference between male and female levels of performance must be pretty drastic, mustn't it?

That's a genetic inequality, and a physical one. There are cultural and mental inequalities as well. For example, take professional go in Japan. Actually, go is biased towards women in Japan: there exist several major leagues and prizes which are open exclusively to women, with no equivalent for males. All the other leagues are open to both sexes; there are even rules that say that there must be a certain number of women participants. However, females are strongly underrepresented among the winners of such competitions. It is simply a reality that the strongest female players are generally much weaker than their male counterparts. Why is this so? Well, science provides two answers. The first is based on the fact that go is a game that uses spatial awareness: something males are traditionally better at. The reasons for this are probably both genetic (evolutionarily, men were hunters) and cultural (the focus on sports and video games as childhood activities for males). However, there exists another explanation based on interest rather than ability. Studies have shown that for games like chess and go, interest is roughly equivalent between the sexes up until a certain age. However, as age increases, interest drops off much more quickly for females than males. This is associated with a developing interest in other activities. Simply put, the idea is that most females just aren't interested in chess, and therefore there is a smaller talent pool. This explanation has been offered for female underrepresentation in fields like engineering and computer science as well.

Now, in this example, we're talking about behaviour, not performance. However, even there, these genetic and cultural biases apply. Little boys and Little girls are very different from each other. I'm taking false bravado in the face of loss as something male and cultural. Why? Because boys are expected to be 'strong', and they are expected to 'take care of others', much moreso than girls. Of course circumstance can push girls into these situations where they have to be strong/take care of others, but then the resulting bravado wouldn't be 'false', now would it?

If Lelouch had turned himself in at that point, it would have completely destroyed any hope of there being a free Japan. The Black Knights would have fractured and never recovered, the Japanese would never again trust Brittanians, and random terrorist actions would have risen immensely.

Why does there need to be a free Japan? Was Euphie working towards a free Japan? Was Suzaku working towards a free Japan? No. They were working towards a Japan which could prosper cooperatively with Britannia.

After Euphemia's massecre, Zero was Japan's hope. However, if Lelouch revealed that Euphemia was innocent, and that he himself had caused the massecre, the Japanese could again trust Britannia. Hell, they might even be forced to, since their symbol of hope was a fraud. Luckily, however, the reputation of the other symbol of hope at the time wouldn't be ruined, so maybe they could move on. As for terrorism arising out of outrage, that would be directed towards Zero, not Britannia.

As for Lelouch getting off scot free, the Zero Requiem was practically his attempt at atonement for that. Not only did he make himself a figure so horrible that he would completely eclipse Euphie from history, but then he essentially killed himself for it. I don't really consider that scot free.

I agree that Zero Requiem atoned for Euphemia's death. However, was Lelouch thinking of Zero Requiem as he killed Euphie? Or rather was he still obsessed with his retribution for his mother and his bloody gift for Nunally? This is what might have changed had someone else been in Lelouch's shoes.

Once Euphemia had started the massacre there, the only way it could end was with her death. Even if Lelouch had turned himself in, Brittania, and especially Charles, would never allow him to reveal the truth of Geass to the public.

Lelouch has a private army. That army did a pretty good job of broadcasting Euphemia's massecre to the world (thank you Deithard). I'm pretty sure Lelouch could have spread word of Geass just as effectively (why do you think Britannia would resist? The Genocide Princess was terrible publicity. They even had to claim that they executed her, not Zero. If they could discredit their single most prominent terrorrist figure with information from his own mouth, why wouldn't they take the chance?).

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I agree with that, but that's because Cornelia is Cornelia - not because she's female.
Lelouch always had some issues, and they only increased over time.

And quite a few of them were male issues. How do you resolve Lelandra's inferiority complex towards Schniezel? Her crush on Euphie? Nunally and Euphemia's promises to marry him? etc.

So what?
I would have done the same in his place (if I didn't panic, that is).
Lelouch once said that he had to continue shedding blood so that the blood already spilled was not in vain, and I agree with that.
What does Euphemia care if people think she was an evil witch? She's dead.
The people who suffered most after her death were Cornelia, Suzaku and, yes, Lelouch.
But Cornelia and Suzaku would have still been heartbroken if she died a hero - just slightly less bitter.
Euphie's death, however, would have been completely in vain. Lelouch tried to give it a purpose instead.

What is more important to give meaning to? A life, or a death? Lelouch gave Euphie's death a purpose by letting it bring him closer to his goals of, again, his vengeance for his mother and his bloody gift to his sister. However, Lelouch utterly trashed all the meaning in Euphie's life, completely shattering the dream she had struggled so much for.

And seriously, can you not see the logical problems with taking dead people as a reason to make more dead people? That sentence was the stupidest crock of bull I'd ever heard. Suzaku was right, it was complete self-justification.

It was never about what Lelouch deserved.
Only about Nunally and, later on, people's happiness in general.
The only thing Lelouch deserved was a life in a better world, even though he would probably be inclined to disagree.
I wouldn't have turned myself in, either - nor for something as pointless as receiving "punishment" for my crimes.
Even if I was a more selfless person and had a dying wish, I would have gone to Suzaku and asked him to just shoot me, not turned myself in.
That would have been a stupid, over-sentimental and even selfish thing to do.

Listen. You like Zero Requiem, right? You think that was a noble sacrifice, right? Well, let's see. What did Zero Requiem involve?

1. Lelouch making the world hate him
2. Lelouch being punished with death.
3. Lelouch giving people the chance for a new tomorrow.

Now, what would my scenario involve?

1. Lelouch making the Japanese and Britannians hate him.
2. Lelouch being punished, in all likelihood with death.
3. Lelouch giving the Japanese the chance for a new tomorrow (SAZ, as Euphie envisioned it).

Where's the difference? Lelouch could have done Zero Requiem (on a smaller scale) from the very start! You think Lelouch taking the hate away from Euphie and turning himself in for his crimes would be stupid, over-sentimental, and selfish? Well, guess what you just called Zero Re:. (It could actually be called stupid, over-sentimental, and selfish btw. I still love it anyway.)

You guys have brought me completely off my original topic btw. Oh well, at least it's still talking about Lelouch.

[Shadowcatch]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

He is not dead, it's all a lie!!!

That's what they all say. It's up to you whether you want to interpret it as a good or bad ending though.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Of course circumstance can push girls into these situations where they have to be strong/take care of others, but then the resulting bravado wouldn't be 'false', now would it?

That depends on how you define "false".
I'm sure Lelouch was a very brave child. But when it comes to standing up to his father... well, he acted in the heat of the moment for once instead of thinking things through.
And who could blame him?
He was hurt and angry and really was the only one who could protect Nunally at that moment.
Charles di Britannia would cause most people to lose their confidence. It doesn't have to be faked.
Lelouch's reaction was mostly based on his strong emotions. And emotions are a human trait, not a male one.

Why does there need to be a free Japan? Was Euphie working towards a free Japan? Was Suzaku working towards a free Japan? No. They were working towards a Japan which could prosper cooperatively with Britannia.

And they were both idealists.
Suzaku was too consumed by his guilt to realize that you can't change the world without sacrifices, and Euphemia was blind to many things. I respect her for giving up her title and all, but she should have convinced Lelouch before she made her announcement.
And I'm not trying to bash Suzaku here. He is one extreme, Lelouch is another. I love them both, but neither of them is a saint.

After Euphemia's massecre, Zero was Japan's hope. However, if Lelouch revealed that Euphemia was innocent, and that he himself had caused the massecre, the Japanese could again trust Britannia. Hell, they might even be forced to, since their symbol of hope was a fraud.

Or they would have just rolled over and let Britannia do whatever it wanted.
Or they would have gone back to terrorism.
Or both.

Luckily, however, the reputation of the other symbol of hope at the time wouldn't be ruined, so maybe they could move on. As for terrorism arising out of outrage, that would be directed towards Zero, not Britannia.

Yes, at first.
But do you think things would have went on smooth from there?
And with Euphemia dead, who would have taken over her work? Cornelia?
Lelouch couldn't have been sure about that.

I agree that Zero Requiem atoned for Euphemia's death. However, was Lelouch thinking of Zero Requiem as he killed Euphie? Or rather was he still obsessed with his retribution for his mother and his bloody gift for Nunally? This is what might have changed had someone else been in Lelouch's shoes.

But it wouldn't have been someone else. It would have been a female Lelouch.
If Cornelia and Euphemia had been banished... well, then things would have turned out very different, I agree with that.

And quite a few of them were male issues. How do you resolve Lelandra's inferiority complex towards Schniezel? Her crush on Euphie? Nunally and Euphemia's promises to marry him? etc.

Lelouch's crush on Euphie was never that important.
Maybe a female version of him would have been after Schneizel or even Clovis instead, but we'll never know. It's not even important, since you don't have to be in love with Euphie in order to adore her- she's just that kind of person.
Lelouch wasn't even sure he loved her in that way... he's never sure.
Anyway, a female Lelouch could still have felt inferior to Schneizel. They are both ambitious, brilliant strategists, after all.

What is more important to give meaning to? A life, or a death?

Euphemia was already as good as dead.

Lelouch gave Euphie's death a purpose by letting it bring him closer to his goals of, again, his vengeance for his mother and his bloody gift to his sister. However, Lelouch utterly trashed all the meaning in Euphie's life, completely shattering the dream she had struggled so much for.

But she never knew, and ignorance is bliss.
I pity Cornelia and Suzaku, but as I already said, they would have been crushed anyway.
Suzaku especially. His hatred for Lelouch probably kept him going and his dead would only have left him empty.
Suzaku may not have gotten a truly happy end anyway, but it could have been much worse.

And seriously, can you not see the logical problems with taking dead people as a reason to make more dead people? That sentence was the stupidest crock of bull I'd ever heard. Suzaku was right, it was complete self-justification.

It's human nature to justify one's own actions.
What Lelouch said was still true. Just giving up wouldn't have solved anything.

Listen. You like Zero Requiem, right?

Everything is relative.
Zero Requiem was a touching, beautiful way for the show to end.
But I also think that Lelouch (as well as Suzaku and many people that were sacrificed along the way) deserved to experience much more happiness in their lives.

You think that was a noble sacrifice, right?

*nods her head*

2. Lelouch being punished with death.

The thing is, I don't think Lelouch deserved punishment.
He made mistakes, yes, but punishing him for them doesn't bring back the dead.
Sure, Lelouch had to die for a better world - and it was very noble of him -, but I still think he deserved better than that.

1. Lelouch making the Japanese and Britannians hate him.

And possibly crushing Nunally's spirit. (Didn't you say a female Lelouch would have understood Nunally's true wish? Then she certainly wouldn't let herself be killed at that point - because she would still have been Lelouch, not a saint.)

2. Lelouch being punished, in all likelihood with death.

Or Charles wiping everyone's memory and throwing a welcome party for him.
Because if Lelouch wanted the Japanese to trust Britannia, the he couldn't have let them know his true identity.
Therefore, Charles could just have told the world Zero was dead and done whatever he wanted from there on.
Not to mention that he would have "destroyed" the world - but since Lelouch didn't know that (just that his father was an evil bastard and that there couldn't be peace as long as he was still alive), that doesn't really count.

3. Lelouch giving the Japanese the chance for a new tomorrow (SAZ, as Euphie envisioned it).

But no one would have changed their attitude.
Euphie was dead and Cornelia could have very well gone as crazy as Nina.

You think Lelouch taking the hate away from Euphie and turning himself in for his crimes would be stupid, over-sentimental, and selfish? Well, guess what you just called Zero Re:. (It could actually be called stupid, over-sentimental, and selfish btw. I still love it anyway.)

Well, Zero Requiem wasn't completely selfless, no, but at least it was part of a plan he put much thought into before executing it.

[NyxOne]

Originally Posted by ZingFreelancer

He is not dead, it's all a lie!!!

Oh, how desperate they get...

[Goldarmy]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I never claimed that guys and girls must come to different conclusions.

But despite all your pretty words your premise is that Lelandra can't be; because guys and girls are completely different and all members of a gender are homogeneous.

The way Lelouch learned to want tomorrow, and to give other people tomorrow, is distinctly male. Or rather, his behaviour is distinctly male.

Why? Because you say so? Because you want to show off your hypothesis?

Y'know? I'm saying there is a reason for each characters gender, in a way that helps the story.

It simply depends on the character.

Yes, and? I never said that 'Lelandra' had to be average and ordinary, just that she had to be recognizably female.

And your recognizably female just boils down to a template for the homogeneous female gender, and it is this nonsense I object.

She offers Kallen a cover up for her terrorist phone conversation by referencing a net game? She doesn't get what Shirley is after when she invites her to go to the opera? She skips school to go gambling with Rivalz??? He is obviously too much of a desperate loser for a girl to spend so much time alone with. It just doesn't work.

The problem here is your homogenous female gender template. You go with the assumption that every female has only one course of action and that is evidence enough for Lelandra's failure. She can reference a net game because some girls are interested in that. She can be uninterested in romance because not every girl is interested in that and she has other importnat issues. And she goes to gamble because females can gamble and she needs money.

Did Marianne fall into a crippling depression when she discovered she wasn't (doing it for the goodness of her children)?

No she died (again) before she can do anything. But yes the question needs an extended answer.So let me try

Do you believe a female Luluko could misread Nunally's "I wish for a kind world" to "I will destroy and recreate the world, paving the way with blood and tears, even of my family" with such obliviousness that Nunally's rejection of Zero's methods would send her into a depressive, 'I want to refrain myself' state? Remember, this represents an absolute failure in interpersonal awareness, not empathy.

Yes I do. Because such an action isn't inconceivable for a female. In fact these actions in parts has been done by females in the series. Marianne has been using excuses to justify her selfish actions which is something females in real life are capable of, revenge was the motivator for Nina Cornelia and to a lesser degree Kallen and it is also true in real life and lastly Kallen's mother fell into drug abuse which sadly pretty common for females in real life. And Lelandra like Lelouch will be a very flawed character

See, Marianne might have been making excuses, but Lelouch wasn't.

He was making excuses, even Suzaku pointed it out.

It wasn't delusion. Lelouch was misunderstanding reality, not denying it.

So "I'm not saying vampires suck blood, I'm saying they bite humans on the neck and drain them of blood." apporach eh? Is this supposed to be amusing? It isn't.

I recently read the wikipedia article on Kant, so I've been using that definition of 'analytic'. It doesn't really have anything to do with chess. Math and physics provide an analogy. Analytic knowledge is purely ideal: it's derived from a mental understanding of the relationships between the definitions of abstract concepts. Essentially, 'deductive knowledge': absolute truths. Synthetic knowledge is purely concrete: it is derived from generalized experience. 'Inductive knowledge': relative probabilities. So math is analytical: the abstract manipulation of pure numbers. Physics (well, the science of it) is synthetic: the generalization from and application of concrete data.

So this is basically saying boys and girls are different and Lelandra can't do what Lelouche does because she is female?

I'm talking about culturally normal.

Which is simply meaningless against the effects of finding your mother dead and sister crippled, learning that your father doesn't give a damn what happens to you, trying to survive

His thought process was basically "If father won't protect them, I will!".

And your evidence for this, besides your 'gut feelings'?

That's really the only explanation for his haughty arrogance in addressing his father.

You are ignoring the anger issue.

I

doubt Lelandra would so readily decide she didn't need him.

With his "I don't give a damn whether you die like a dog" attitude that is the most probable course regardless of gender.

She wouldn't be that arrogant.

Arrogance isn't limited to males. You can find very arrogant females.

They don't get into duels over pride.

Yes they do. You have a very idealized and narrow view fo females. Since it says that you are male in your profile I have to ask do you have any contact with female gender?

Lelouch lived by his own power because he made a mental, idealogical connection between 'living' and 'self-sufficiency'.

Nonsense. Lelouche like Lelandra would live by his/her own power not due to a mental connection but because he/she has to.

Lelandra would not be angry. She would be sad. It's okay for girls to be sad, y'know?

And again we come to the homogeneous female gender nonsense. Lelandra could be and would be angry. Anger isn't limited to males.

I don't think Lelandra would have provoked her father into exiling her when what she wanted was actually the exact opposite.

In the heat of anger you tell things that you shouldn't have regardless of gender.

What, from everybody?

Yes, everybody. Which part of court intrigue do you not understand?

it wasn't really about others' intentions, but his own ideas about what it meant to 'live'.

What are you talking about? You can't ignore Lelouch's fears of him and Nunnaly being reduced to simple pawn pieces or be killed by assasins.

What's male about Lelouch is his unawareness of people's feelings (even his own), and his heavily idealized way of thinking.

Both issues can also be found in females, it is nothing male.

For females, idealogy is a subjective matter: "what I believe is what I believe; what they believe is what they believe. Neither one of us is necessarily better or more correct--the world is full of people who each percieve a unique reality."

This statement is total fertilizer matter. Where did you find this nonsense from?

Lelouch considers his own perspective as the singular objective truth.

And same could apply to Lelandra because it applies to females.

Made it more plausible?

Simply no. This is Code Geass we are talking about.

Made the relationships more interesting?

Interesting yes. More no.

I mean c'mon, Lelouch's relationship with his father is obvious so oedipal.

Being a female won't change the hate dynamic with Charles.

His inferiority complex towards Schniezel.

Being a female won't change that.

His utter disregard for Clovis.

Being a female won't change that either.

Then there's how Lelouch's interactions with half the female cast can only be described as 'typical harem lead'.

For the simple reason of fanservice.

To be honest, I'm not a psychologist either. But I did take a couple courses, and read some other wikipedia articles. Learning is exciting, and applying it moreso. I'm not just pulling this crap out of my ass, okay

In case you didn't notice. a couple courses and some wikipedia articles don't make you a psychology professor.

I

agree that Zero Requiem atoned for Euphemia's death.

It didn't atone anything. She will be known and loathed as Massacre Princess. Being the sister of Demon Emperor won't change that.

[Knight Of Zero]

u know perhaps Lelouch story is still on going thoe his rebellion is over that for sure. This came to mind when he knows about CC's secret(turn 15) I mean what the point of knowing that than, so I conclude that regarding this will be move on to further story.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

u know perhaps Lelouch story is still on going thoe his rebellion is over that for sure. This came to mind when he knows about CC's secret(turn 15) I mean what the point of knowing that than, so I conclude that regarding this will be move on to further story.

Well, since C.C. is still alive along with her code, that means that there can theorically be more "Code Geass" later on, but certainly no "Lelouch of the Rebellion" indeed.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

u know perhaps Lelouch story is still on going thoe his rebellion is over that for sure. This came to mind when he knows about CC's secret(turn 15) I mean what the point of knowing that than, so I conclude that regarding this will be move on to further story.

Okouchi is on record as stating that Lelouch's story is over.

If their is a sequel to Code Geass don't expect Lelouch to be in it.

[Knight Of Zero]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Okouchi is on record as stating that Lelouch's story is over.

If their is a sequel to Code Geass don't expect Lelouch to be in it.

Lelouch will be in it in some way now I don't think he wants to knock Lelouch out of the way for good.

[eaglei3]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Okouchi is on record as stating that Lelouch's story is over.

If their is a sequel to Code Geass don't expect Lelouch to be in it.

I seriously don't expect any character aside from CC being in a sequel if they make one.

[Lelouch71]

Originally Posted by eaglei3

I seriously don't expect any character aside from CC being in a sequel if they make one.

I have to agree. The only thing I can see them doing is either set it far into the future perhaps with a reincarnated Lelouch or create an alternate world perhaps telling the story of Suzaku and Nunnally from their manga adaption. Either way it will be very hard to make another character as good as Lelouch though. The best they could probably do is make a character who is very similar to him or retcon the ending which wouldn't be a good thing.

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

Okouchi is on record as stating that Lelouch's story is over.

If their is a sequel to Code Geass don't expect Lelouch to be in it.

True, but money is what makes the world go round. If SUNRISE wants a sequel and wants it to be a near guarenteed hit, they would bring Lelouch back, and Okouchi wouldn't have much say in the matter since he doesn't own the character.

[Pink-chan]

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

Well, since C.C. is still alive along with her code, that means that there can theorically be more "Code Geass" later on, but certainly no "Lelouch of the Rebellion" indeed.

I recalled that this anime was known as Lelouch of the Rebellion. Code Geass was added to the title later. I would say, this anime focuses on Lelouch. Should there be a sequel, Code Geass will be given another title such as "Nightmare of Nunnally" or "Suzaku of the Counterattack" along the line.

Why are we so pessimistic? Surely if they can create a character like Lelouch, they can always create another like him. I seriously think they can end it here as that. THE END.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

Lelouch will be in it in some way now I don't think he wants to knock Lelouch out of the way for good.

Have you read any of the interviews? I think Okouchi takes Lelouch being dead very seriously, I think Sunrise would have to do something drastic for Okouchi to sign on for a sequel where Lelouch lives.

I mean something like Okouchi and Taniguchi gets large amounts of the money from the Merchandise.

Originally Posted by Pink-chan

I recalled that this anime was known as Lelouch of the Rebellion. Code Geass was added to the title later. I would say, this anime focuses on Lelouch. Should there be a sequel, Code Geass will be given another title such as "Nightmare of Nunnally" or "Suzaku of the Counterattack" along the line.

Why are we so pessimistic? Surely if they can create a character like Lelouch, they can always create another like him. I seriously think they can end it here as that. THE END.

I think its mainly because Code Geass was Lelouch. Other than Lelouch, and C.C the cast was relativly unremarkable. Suzaku was usually annoying and stupid, Kallen was a stereotypical Super Robot pilot just with boobs, Xingke, and Todoh where horribly misused.

The Knights of Round to put it bluntly mostly sucked, with Jeremiah being the only really well done Britannian. We are not talking about the Zeon where you had the brilliant Ramba Ral arc, or Char Aznable.

If Code Geass had been an ensemble cast like say most Gundam series, or shonen series than I would say that I look forward to a sequel, but Code Geass has always been about Lelouch.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I think its mainly because Code Geass was Lelouch. Other than Lelouch, and C.C the cast was relativly unremarkable. Suzaku was usually annoying and stupid, Kallen was a stereotypical Super Robot pilot just with boobs, Xingke, and Todoh where horribly misused.

The Knights of Round to put it bluntly mostly sucked, with Jeremiah being the only really well done Britannian.

I disagree.
I always adored Suzaku, Kallen was rather interesting, Gino was entertaining and showed potential... oh well.
If there was a sequel, I still would only want to have C.C. in it - or someone who met her. She's immortal, after all, and I want the sequel to take place in a far away future.
But I'll always take a prequel.
Clovis' research could be part of it... errr, okay, I should stop obsessing over him. How about... uhm... a prequel about V.V.!