[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[chronotrig]

"Land of the golden witch" was the original name for EP3, and according to Ryuukishi, it was supposed to be the hardest of all the games, supposedly with one big twist that he thought "most people wouldn't get at first". But after EP2, a lot of people were really confused by the magic scenes and stopped reasoning, so he made EP3 a much easier tale and included the Schrodinger's cat analogy, which supposedly wasn't supposed to appear until EP5 or 6. Since then, it seems he's always been on the fence about whether and when to include the parts from the EP3 version of Land of the golden witch in a later episode...and now we know he did include something.

If anyone who knows the truth of the games can use the gold text, seriously hurts my theory. If that were true, anyone who has figured out the game would then be able to change it at will. While it still is possible that anyone who knows the game can change it, it sounds like this would get very messy, with multiple "Game Masters" running around the place.

That said, with my theory, you still would have to know everything about the game to keep your gold text from contradicting any others and therefore use it at all, so maybe it's not totally dead.

[luckyssol]

So the most vital part of what was going to be in episode 3 was moved to episode 5.

My guess is this content is regarding the last part of the epitaph. It seems like the riddle is just giving the four rewards but how else can it be interpreted?

[ijriims]

Now the term "Answer" would become one mystified word.

Ryukishi07's golden texts theory should be simple: anyone who knows the "answer" could use the golden texts, up until now, only Beatrice, Battler and Lambda could use.

I suppose the land of the golden riddle referred to the last part of the epitaph: the bestowing of the four treasures by Beatrice in the golden land.

Someone was able to solve the epitaph 98%? I suppose those people figured out what the key was about. Then the whole "gouging" part could only be solved if they arrived at the island. I guess the key was one sentence from some famous book, so anyone who had figured out the meaning of hometown and sweetfish river should identify the sentence.

The most mysterious part would be the last section, and it was not discussed by adults in EP3 or in EP5 at all. So it had a significant impact on the story, but not necessary to reach the "Answer".

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Did Battler show any romantic inclination towards Beatrice? Not at least as close to KanonXJessica and GeorgeXShannon I should say. Did Beatrice show any romantic inclination towards Battler? Again it was not apparent. Most shipment BeatriceXBattler occurred inside our reader's head actually. And take the extra TIPS Beato's white day into account, Beato gave Battler chocolate not because of love, but out of hoping she would receive something bigger in the white day. I would want to see BeatXBatt as well. But under my hypothesis, piece-Beatrice and piece-Battler would never become a pair, though meta ones still had some chances.

For question about whether Kyrie had talked with Maria at all, you could easily imagine that before this family meeting, Ange was probably playing with Maria and so Kyrie must have interacted with Maria.

And in Ep2, Kyrie said to Rosa that Maria had grown a lot but Rosa did not recognize, it was hint that Kyrie did pay attention to Maria. And do you realize many time Kyrie mentioned to Rosa that child's dream should be protected?

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I think there was a clue that Kyrie was Beatrice's daughter: why Kyrie's name was so westernized like Ushiromiya family when Sumadera family is essentially a Japanese traditional one? Because Beatrice was foreigner so she gave Kyrie a Western name and Kasumi was Kyrie's half sister with the same father only.

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My understanding of why Shannon seemed not so happy about the proposal was because she knew she could have died in the family meeting.

And for why Eva did not say anything about the incident, it might be because she did not understand it completely, and second because she did involve in some murders (Batter, Rosa, Maria, Krauss and Natsuhi) so she was unwilling to incriminate herself by saying anything.
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I predicted no murder occurred after 2 nd twilight in Ep5, since the whole 2nd twilight was to frame Natsuhi and eliminate her (by putting her in jail), Eva and Hideyoshi while 1st twilight was to eliminate all the cousins, Rosa, Krauss. So the ultimate result was Battler's family getting most of the gold (when you think about it, actually Eva was supposed to be killed in the 2nd twilight as well, if it was successful, then finally which family remained alive or not in jail? Rudolf's one).

Why EP5 was different from the previous episodes? Because it contained no love, the motive was so clear about gold but not family anymore. Why it was the case? If you adopt my hypothesis, then everything was so clear...

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Ssol

So the most vital part of what was going to be in episode 3 was moved to episode 5.

My guess is this content is regarding the last part of the epitaph. It seems like the riddle is just giving the four rewards but how else can it be interpreted?

Well, the "Land" part has to be a true riddle, something that no one on the mystery side even seems to notice, but also a dirty trick He never said anything about the trick being related to the name of the game.

The only thing I can think of that satisfies this is the battle in Kinzo's study, the only scene in games 1-5 which both includes magic and is (supposedly) seen by all survivors, including the detective. No one ever mentioned that in the game. Still, it seems a bit obvious, and how could this have been the core part of another episode? Maybe there's some trick to it...as I've suggested, the "meta battle" might have taken place after everyone left the study, and the whole scene was then a lie witnessed by someone. That would indeed be a dirty trick, but maybe a little too dirty ^^;

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

"Land of the golden witch" was the original name for EP3, and according to Ryuukishi, it was supposed to be the hardest of all the games, supposedly with one big twist that he thought "most people wouldn't get at first". But after EP2, a lot of people were really confused by the magic scenes and stopped reasoning, so he made EP3 a much easier tale and included the Schrodinger's cat analogy, which supposedly wasn't supposed to appear until EP5 or 6. Since then, it seems he's always been on the fence about whether and when to include the parts from the EP3 version of Land of the golden witch in a later episode...and now we know he did include something.

If anyone who knows the truth of the games can use the gold text, seriously hurts my theory. If that were true, anyone who has figured out the game would then be able to change it at will. While it still is possible that anyone who knows the game can change it, it sounds like this would get very messy, with multiple "Game Masters" running around the place.

That said, with my theory, you still would have to know everything about the game to keep your gold text from contradicting any others and therefore use it at all, so maybe it's not totally dead.

For once that we agreed on something
I guess that this is major blow for my theory a well. If gold isn't meant to create a game, then I am completely at loss. It looks like this whole think is only about "understanding the game" and "finding the answer". But if red is the truth what is this gold?

In EP5, the game stopped shortly after Hideyoshi's corspe was discovered, but people who know the "answer" should be able to predict what happens next in the second twilight and beyond.

As I suspected, the serial murder didn't stop. Lambda covered practically all the important informations from this game, she didn't even made us watch it until the end. The holes in the story were filled in with lies.

The fact that someone solved 98% of the epitaph shocked me. Can someone have gone that far without having caused a chorus of consensus? If not I want to know which is this theory that covers that much of the epitaph!

Anyway it seems like there is a very dirty trick about Umineko now. It can't have a simple linear solution. It is something related to the very essence of the games and that enforces my idea that they are not what they seem, they are not kakera.

[Marion]

Well you have to consider that it is a lie to some extent. Erika saw Battler jumping out of the window and then catching Beatrice. But according to the narration everyone in the study knew Battler didn't actually jump but just climbed down via the gutter pipe.

[LyricalAura]

The weirdness surrounding Hideyoshi's death (or lack thereof) could fit the bill, since that could easily have been transplanted from another episode. There's also the matter of why there wasn't a second victim for that twilight, which might be related.

Other than that... Could it have something to do with the magic circles? I remember several of the Stakes commenting that they were poorly drawn this time around. Were there any other irregularities about them?

[Tyabann]

As usual: What the hell is going on?

I agree with Renall... Ryukishi is overestimating the capability of his readers to sniff out his clues.

Oh well. As long as it's all explained in the end, like in all good mysteries, I won't care.

Also, more focus on story? Does that mean actual development for the human side? Please say it does...

[Kaiba]

Short response to that interview. "Ah, shit."

Really, I've got a problem. Shannon and George doesn't explain the gold text at all, and since it looks like Episode 5 actually has a continuation after the death of Hideyoshi, I have no idea how that theory can explain Episode 5 at all. Damn, damn.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Oh well. As long as it's all explained in the end, like in all good mysteries, I won't care.

The game is to try to figure it all out before the solution is presented.

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Also, more focus on story? Does that mean actual development for the human side? Please say it does...

And Battler will have to murder 13 members of his family... I guess that was expected since he is the new game master.

I want to hear more about Battler's immediate family.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Also, more focus on story? Does that mean actual development for the human side? Please say it does...

Yes, Ryuukishi said they'd focus more on the game board in EP6 to make up for the total lack of game boardness in EP5. EP5 was all about mystery, which is something only the meta world people are really concerned with. Game board people are more concerned with surviving and their parents being dead and all.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ssol

The game is to try to figure it all out before the solution is presented.

I'm reading this with the primary purpose of being both surprised and entertained... trying to figure it out myself, while also entertaining, kind of ruins the fun when it turns out that I'm right.

And don't give me that shit about "I'm doing it wrong", different people have different ways of being entertained.

Sorry for the rudeness, but that's a sentiment I highly disagree with.

Originally Posted by Ssol

And Battler will have to murder 13 members of his family... I guess that was expected since he is the new game master.

On another tack, this is going to be an interesting turning point in his development.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Yes, Ryuukishi said they'd focus more on the game board in EP6 to make up for the total lack of game boardness in EP5. EP5 was all about mystery, which is something only the meta world people are really concerned with. Game board people are more concerned with surviving and their parents being dead and all.

THANK GOD!

The humans always struck me as more interesting, to begin with...

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'm reading this with the primary purpose of being both surprised and entertained... trying to figure it out myself, while also entertaining, kind of ruins the fun when it turns out that I'm right.

And don't give me that shit about "I'm doing it wrong", different people have different ways of being entertained.

Sorry for the rudeness, but that's a sentiment I highly disagree with.

Not rude at all. Good answer.
It's kinda like why I enjoy the anime so much.

But being able to predict some of the murders, like Ryukishi said we should be able to do, might be useful.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ssol

But being able to predict some of the murders, like Ryukishi said we should be able to do, might be useful.

True... but this all-encompassing "Answer" of Ryukishi's is probably only known by one person... him. He's either trolling or vastly overestimating the ability of his fanbase to find tiny clues.

This is why creating a mystery released in biannual segments generally isn't done. It gets silly.

[chronotrig]

Ryuukishi actually made a point about this in the interview. He said that Umineko fans are divided into two very different camps: people who enjoy the story, and people who enjoy the mystery aspect. EP5 leaned heavily towards the latter group, so EP6 will be there for the former.

There's nothing wrong with being in either camp. As the creators say, they're both equally valid ways to "play" the game.


I'd also like to add that succeeding in stumping the entire fanbase with a puzzle that is actually solvable is more of an achievement than anything bad
According to Ryuukishi, a lot of people have gotten very close to the answer. You can't claim the story isn't solvable until you hear the answer for yourself.

[ameskitty]

Spoiler for major EP 5 spoilers/interview thoughts:

So wait, is he implying that everybody still surviving in EP 5 is going to die? I figured as much but...oh, what an interesting afterworld with only those 10 people that would've made. (I wish I - heck, anybody - knew the "answer" - all I can say is that I'm fairly confident at this point that all of them are going to explode/go "missing") I had hopes that perhaps not since the gold was discovered, but when I thought about it that didn't stop Jessica from asploding in EP 3.

I'm guessing this "venomous" thing he's talking about is some sort of closed room trick or something related to the manner in which bodies are discovered. I also have a feeling that it'll be one collective, huge "d'oh" moment when we figure out what it is XD.

Very, very glad to hear that we'll be getting more "people" stories in EP 6...the lack of pairings acting like pairings (and really the absence of every character as a "character" except for Natsuhi 3: and maybe Krauss) kind of made the game...lose something. Kind of like a "game with no love", as Ronove was saying (although I know he was referring to the mystery aspect of it, but only focusing on pertinent characters is just as much omitting "love").

And yes, I consider myself a "story" reader. I've never been good at mysteries . Although I do have theories I'm fairly sure they'll be crushed, and that thought actually excites me (as it does for most mysteries).

Also, I get the feeling that Battler is at least partially wrong about something, even having reached the "answer".

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

You can't claim the story isn't solvable until you hear the answer for yourself.

I'm not saying it isn't solvable... I'm saying that Ryukishi has succeeded in making a mystery so convoluted that no one will solve it.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I'm not saying it isn't solvable... I'm saying that Ryukishi has succeeded in making a mystery so convoluted that no one will solve it.

Well, Higurashi was also a game you solve in retrospect
The point is that he can make a game that is actually solvable. Given enough time and patience and intelligence, it could eventually be solved. If he can do that and still keep hardly anyone from solving it, that's a masterpiece. Especially if there's a way to eliminate less likely solutions.

And Ryuukishi has said that people have succeeded in solving large parts of it, so you can't say that no one will solve it.
The few dozen active people on this thread don't represent everyone.

[ijriims]

I somehow got the idea that real Beatrice had communication with meta-Beatrice. I meant piece-Beatrice knew all the games actually, though she was unable to know the meta-world information (like the red texts). It was hinted in EP4 when piece Beatrice talked with meta-Beatrice.

So real Beatrice was like Rika.

If it was true, then every theories have to be rewritten.

But then, it explained why in different Ep the killing orders were so different.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

And Ryuukishi has said that people have succeeded in solving large parts of it, so you can't say that no one will solve it.

Renall said it before, but solving large parts of it isn't the same as solving the whole, i.e. the "Answer".

Until it can all be put together, it's not solved, and something is preventing people from doing just that.

Originally Posted by ijriims

I somehow got the idea that real Beatrice had communication with meta-Beatrice. I meant piece-Beatrice knew all the games actually, though she was unable to know the meta-world information (like the red texts). It was hinted in EP4 when piece Beatrice talked with meta-Beatrice.

So real Beatrice was like Rika.

Actually, the way they talk about Beatrice in Ep1 is exactly the same way the cast talked about Oyashiro-sama in Higurashi.

She 'exists'. Note the quotations.

It's very possible that Beato is the Hanyuu to someone... Maria?