[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Mali]

The trick ending happens in a parallel universe.
I guess choosing the Magic Ending as canon is more appealing than the Trick Ending in terms of fan service and the "Happy Ending"- Plot in EP8.
Unless there is a plan for a Umineko or When They Cry sequel that presents characters and background from the four arcs, the actual real ending has less weight for now and viewers should express their own views.

[Levani]

The trick ending happens in a parallel universe.

No, it doesn't. You were just told it was confirmed as false long time ago.

I guess choosing the Magic Ending as canon is more appealing than the Trick Ending in terms of fan service and the "Happy Ending"- Plot in EP8.

There's literally nothing "fanservicy" about the Magic Ending. The only reason it's real is because it gives resolution to a lot of characters. Unlike the Trick Ending, which attempted to pander the group of fanbase who were looking for one more plot twist.

Unless there is a plan for a Umineko or When They Cry sequel that presents characters and background from the four arcs, the actual real ending has less weight for now and viewers should express their own views.

What does this even mean?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

The trick ending happens in a parallel universe.
I guess choosing the Magic Ending as canon is more appealing than the Trick Ending in terms of fan service and the "Happy Ending"- Plot in EP8.

I'd like you to give me a little faith when I says something was confirmed.
When the manga version of Ep 8 wasn't yet finished Ryukishi already stated in an interview that the true ending was the magic one and that the trick one was a bonus.
As however some fans were still confused in the manga he clarified that the choice that Ange, the Ange we've been reading about, took was the magic ending, and that the trick ending was merely a possibility she could have chosen but didn't.
The trick ending is clearly meta as Ange meets Erika on the boat and chats with her... not mentioning Ange had learnt nothing from what she saw.
The magic ending is the ending in which the message Umineko wanted to carry on is accepted by Ange who continues to carry it on, it's the ending in which we've a resolution to the Battler/Tohya plot, it's the ending in which things are finally explained.
It's not surprising that Ryukishi wanted the true ending to be the one in which his work is understood and not the one in which it's dismissed.

Now... can the trick ending happen in a parallel universe? If we assume fragments exist, it can be in another fragment... like any forgery written including the ones in which Battler massacred his family.

Originally Posted by Mali

Unless there is a plan for a Umineko or When They Cry sequel that presents characters and background from the four arcs, the actual real ending has less weight for now and viewers should express their own views.

I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning. While I wouldn't mind a sequel, characters and background were presented already in the four arcs. Why would they need to be presented more to give the ending more weight?

And of course viewers can express their views but a view can't become a canon truth. If you don't like the magic ending it's fine... but that was Ange's choice in the canon.
Disliking it won't change it's what Ange chose...

[Mali]

No, it doesn't. You were just told it was confirmed as false long time ago.

I suppose you meant the manga? I don't think it's false. The manga got a totally new meaning (but it's just a design choice to have everything in the medium).
If a game has a branching story, non-canon ending aren't false. Nobody stops someone to choose an other ending. (heh even Ange had the trick as a first thought but it's an another story)

There's literally nothing "fanservicy" about the Magic Ending. The only reason it's real is because it gives resolution to a lot of characters. Unlike the Trick Ending, which attempted to pander the group of fanbase who were looking for one more plot twist.

Ah you meant the group who felt betrayed after the interview came out? Sorry, but it spawned a number of guys who likes to act like a spoiler in any fun discussion (with newbies).
I wrote "fanservice" because it's a fan question. Would Ryukishi tell the things all by himself without being asked?? And he wouldn't end it as a "neutral (or bad) ending" for sure.

What does this even mean?

Sorry I should have used two sentences. For the first part: Imagine Ryukishi will make When They Cry 5 and include a Ange-esque character (the Ange who want to expose the culprit because she wants to) and acts like the villian and came from a world where she was a witch of truth and bla bla... I liked how Bernkastell was presented in Umineko, I wish Ryukishi could include this as well in other works (not just the character).
For part two: I like how the conversations between two parties are. But there's no real "understanding" if one says "it's canon". lol it takes away the purpose of a book...

As I mentioned before some fans felt that the real ending was forced. I'd say it's not bad to stay in conversation even with people like "Rosatricers"or whatever.

[Levani]

I suppose you meant the manga? I don't think it's false. The manga got a totally new meaning (but it's just a design choice to have everything in the medium).
If a game has a branching story, non-canon ending aren't false. Nobody stops someone to choose an other ending. (heh even Ange had the trick as a first thought but it's an another story)

No, I don't mean the manga, I mean Ryukishi confirming it ages ago, before EP8 manga even existed. And I also don't like how you're turning a blind eye to the superior EP8 which has been confirmed countless of times as canon.

As I mentioned before some fans felt that the real ending was forced. I'd say it's not bad to stay in conversation even with people like "Rosatricers"or whatever.

I don't, I've had my fair share of discussion with those delusional people and they will talk out of their ass to deny things presented in the story as well as the Word of God. There's nothing more annoying than a person who claims that they are a fan, yet denies everything.

[Mali]

@ JJ
Ok I forgot that was in the interview. I think many readers understood the magic ending. I'm okay if a creator wants to speak about his work.
But Umineko also has to stand on its own. In the VN the player was given the choice. If the trick ending was chosen nobody would be like . But he manga showed after expressing her first thoughts.
For the boat scene: I don't think it implies that she learnt nothing. Look a difference between the 2 endings. In the magic one we see what happens in x years. The other one just shows some minutes on the boat and only fate knows what happens after this.

For the ending choice: In my opinion it should have depended on the readers' choice (as they were in Ange's position) like in the original.
It wouldn't be better if the trick ending was canon.
If sequel would appear so what should Ryukishi choose? I made a example about Ange in my previous post.

@ Levani
I like the manga version, but dislike they took liberty of making a choice for the reader. You can point on me, but don't expect nobody would criticise changes in an adaption. Having the same opinion as the Word of God is ok, using it as an argument isn't. Welcome to the fandom.

[Levani]

I like the manga version, but dislike they took liberty of making a choice for the reader. You can point on me, but don't expect nobody would criticise changes in an adaption. Having the same opinion as the Word of God is ok, using it as an argument isn't. Welcome to the fandom.

I don't need welcoming in this fandom, I've been here for years, thank you very much, long before even the episodes were translated and have actively helped with multiple projects like : assistance in translating, making the PS3 patches, which includes voices and I'm also assisting in the new PS3 game-porting project.

So, what you're saying is that The Word of God is not an argument because you decide to shut your ears and tell the author that what he just said was wrong, I see, makes sense.

[AuraTwilight]

Word of God is 100% valid in Umineko; it's literally equivalent to Red Truth and indeed what the latter is a metaphor for. Umineko is not a work that invites Death of the Author.

[Mali]

I don't need welcoming in this fandom, I've been here for years, thank you very much, long before even the episodes were translated and have actively helped with multiple projects like : assistance in translating, making the PS3 patches, which includes voices and I'm also assisting in the new PS3 game-porting project.

So, what you're saying is that The Word of God is not an argument because you decide to shut your ears and tell the author that what he just said was wrong, I see, makes sense.

Nice to read that. Do you assist in the announced steam-version, too?

Like I said before the author has the right to add/change content if he wanted.
Praising and critcising are normal things and equally important for a creator. It seems you see my actions as senseless bashing against Umineko. It's not the case. And I think we are using "word of god" in two different contexts
It's not ok to argue badly about critical constructive opinion.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

@ JJ
Ok I forgot that was in the interview. I think many readers understood the magic ending. I'm okay if a creator wants to speak about his work.
But Umineko also has to stand on its own. In the VN the player was given the choice. If the trick ending was chosen nobody would be like .

The trick ending would have a lot of people unsatisfied as Erika just popped into existence on Ange's boat even though she died and talked to Ange. Either Ange in the trick ending is dead, is allucinating or it's all fantasy.

Originally Posted by Mali

For the boat scene: I don't think it implies that she learnt nothing. Look a difference between the 2 endings. In the magic one we see what happens in x years. The other one just shows some minutes on the boat and only fate knows what happens after this.

What Ange 'learns' in the trick ending is to continue to act like Erika, construct her own truth by thinking the worst of every human being and forcing it on others by killing Kuwabata even if she has no idea if he has betrayed her or not.

Acting like Erika is something she was actually already doing when she was pinning the blame on Eva without proof because it was more convenient than suspect her own family.

In short she hasn't really learnt it, she has just continued on doing it only she got worse.

Originally Posted by Mali

For the ending choice: In my opinion it should have depended on the readers' choice (as they were in Ange's position) like in the original.

You seem to view Umineko as one of those games with more possible endings that are all equally valid. I view Umineko as a game in which you've to find the right ending.
Umineko remarks that, after all, there's only one truth... and when we've two either one is wrong (in Bern's game the culprit is Battler's family, not George's family as Erika said) or we're back to square one in the catbox (because two truths/theories existed in Ep 5 basically even the witch was allowed to exist and nothing was considered solved).

In short Ryukishi, with the ending basically let us play with the idea that 'the George's family culprit theory' could be right before reminding us that no, there's only one truth and that this truth is that Ange chose the magic ending.

Originally Posted by Mali

It wouldn't be better if the trick ending was canon.
If sequel would appear so what should Ryukishi choose? I made a example about Ange in my previous post.

When they cry is being continued in Hotarubi with Lambda and Bern playing a game.

...and I think that we should remember to differentiate between PrimeAnge and MetaAnge, Rika and Bern.

Originally Posted by Mali

I like the manga version, but dislike they took liberty of making a choice for the reader. You can point on me, but don't expect nobody would criticise changes in an adaption. Having the same opinion as the Word of God is ok, using it as an argument isn't. Welcome to the fandom.

It's Ryukishi who took the liberty of informing the readers of which was the right decision. In Umineko we've been asked many times to find solutions. In Ep 8 manga version Ryukishi let us check if we've found the solutions he basically asked us to find.
Umineko was all about asking us to understand the message the author was giving us and finding the solution he wanted us to find.
When some people didn't after the VN he did the same that Beato did when Battler couldn't find the right solution and offered her a wrong solution, denied his solution with red.
Canon solutions are red to tell us that if we found other solutions we were wrong.

Of course you can reject canon in the same way as Battler could doubt the red.

However if you do you aren't anymore playing with Ryukishi. You're taking the gameboard and playing a solo game in which you don't care about finding the answers he asked you to find but are interested in just your own truth.

It's a possible choice, of course, but at this point you've chosen to play a different game from the one you were asked to play.

It's no more 'find the solution Ryukishi asked you to find' but 'find a solution you like'. It's no more understanding the game but forcing a solution you like on it... which is basically going for the trick ending and accepting Erika's mentality that you can force your own truth on something.

It's fine to not like something in Umineko or even Umineko as a whole. I've parts of Umineko I don't like as well.
But denying word of God isn't constructive criticism, is playing a different game.

It constructs nothing, it improves nothing, it just denies the existence of what one doesn't like.

[marianx]

does anyone know why beatrice at the end of game 6 was switching between being kind/ being like the original beatrice. it kind of confused me. things i thought is that maybe battler learned to view beatrice fully from both perspectives? since im guessing maybe his own interpretation effects her, since she is just part of his own mind. sorry if i am going off topic or something just wanted to know this lol.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by marianx

does anyone know why beatrice at the end of game 6 was switching between being kind/ being like the original beatrice. it kind of confused me. things i thought is that maybe battler learned to view beatrice fully from both perspectives? since im guessing maybe his own interpretation effects her, since she is just part of his own mind. sorry if i am going off topic or something just wanted to know this lol.

Hum... the manga implied MetaBeatrice is actually Sayo's soul, not a part of Battler's mind.
My theory is just that those behaviours were two sides of the original Beatrice/Sayo.
Sayo could also be sweet and affectionate... so that sweet Beatrice is part of her.

[marianx]

oh that actually is interesting, i haven't read the manga to be honest so i was just under the impression it was only in battlers head. your theory also sounds like it might be correct, not sure though. i just thought it really out of place how she was switching.

[Mali]

@ jjblue/35496
About the boat scene: What you said is the straight analysis of the scene. It's right. But I would note that Ange woke up from a day dream -> she should have at least some conscience.
(I could reflect this on Eva's decision, she revised it)

The trick ending is by no means a bad ending/choice, maybe anti-climatic.
As I said before this scene didn't show the future, 'open ending'. I disagree your view she didn't learn anything. Even Erika gained a 'bit' love after her time in the abyss.
I had the opinion that Ange didn't see the point of Eva's decision not telling what happened in the magic ending and Ange wouldn't think pinning the guilt on Eva for eternity in the trick ending. If we can see it in a more positive light she has a chance of learning the truth of Eva. I'm interested if Ange could have a happy life in the non-conon ending, too.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by marianx

oh that actually is interesting, i haven't read the manga to be honest so i was just under the impression it was only in battlers head. your theory also sounds like it might be correct, not sure though. i just thought it really out of place how she was switching.

I recommend reading the manga then as it's awesome! If you go back in the forum you might find translations of the various chapters...

Originally Posted by Mali

@ jjblue/35496
About the boat scene: What you said is the straight analysis of the scene. It's right. But I would note that Ange woke up from a day dream -> she should have at least some conscience.
(I could reflect this on Eva's decision, she revised it)

Uh? I'm not sure what you're implying. That Ep 8 was a daydream and after waking up from it and killing two people she started allucinating?
Because Erika surely doesn't represent Ange's coscience as she praises Ange's actions... unless Ange has a serious lack of morals...

Originally Posted by Mali

The trick ending is by no means a bad ending/choice, maybe anti-climatic.
As I said before this scene didn't show the future, 'open ending'.

I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, the scene didn't show what will happen in the future years but the start it's not promising. Ange became a murderer. She just killed 2 people. And even if we, as readers, can excuse the murder of Amakusa because WE know he would actually harm her... (Ange doesn't, it just her theory) there's nothing to prove that Kawabata would do the same, just Ange's speculation.
I wouldn't call Ange becoming a murderer a good ending. Not mentioning she might be starting seeing things is she take her seeing Erika as 'litteral'... and if it's not litteral... she's merely using magic to justify herself.
The bad ending lead us to a 'black Ange' or whatever one wants to call her.

Originally Posted by Mali

I disagree your view she didn't learn anything.

There's no proof whatsoever she learn something in the bad ending or that she gained some love. Also Ange was already shown in Ep 4 as someone who doesn't trust in people (she refused to drink what Okonogi offered her which, we know, wasn't poisoned or to use the car he offered her...) so it's not like her believing Amakusa might actually plan to harm her is 'something she learnt'.

Originally Posted by Mali

Even Erika gained a 'bit' love after her time in the abyss.

Not really. Even in the VN she's back on serving Bern and destroying the golden land as cruelly as possible to the point that even Dlanor judged her beyond redemption.

Originally Posted by Mali

I had the opinion that Ange didn't see the point of Eva's decision not telling what happened in the magic ending

We don't need the magic ending to know that Ange didn't agree with Eva hiding the truth. We know it from Ep 3. Also, although the manga made it obvious, even in the VN is hinted that Ange ended up on seeing the diary and that's what pushed her to attempt to jump from that building.

Originally Posted by Mali

and Ange wouldn't think pinning the guilt on Eva for eternity in the trick ending.

In the trick ending it's not that she's not pinning the guilt on Eva, it's just that she has stopped caring about the past. She's not absolving Eva or understanding her or claiming it's not her fault or anything else. She's just shrugging off the problem of whatever happened to her family.

Originally Posted by Mali

If we can see it in a more positive light she has a chance of learning the truth of Eva. I'm interested if Ange could have a happy life in the non-conon ending, too.

In the trick ending Ange murdered two people in cold blood due to her suspicions and decided to find fun exposing other people's 'sins/truths' be they real or speculated like Erika did, basically becoming an intellectual rapist as well.

While from a narrative point of view it might be interesting to have a paranoid, murder prone, cruel Ange living a happy life I'm not sure I'll call this a happy ending.
True, what constitute a happy ending is relative but well, I'll side with the group who wouldn't like the bad guy to walk away toward happiness.

[marianx]

heres something interesting i found. i seen the conversation about how basically everyone was saying shkannon is confirmed for a fact, and that word of god is absolute in umineko. well i found this. http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/5724.html . he is pretty much saying in here beatrice is mocking that, and that the opposite actually is more effective.. i would not be suprised of ryukishi pulled something like this anyways because he seems like the type of author that likes these type of tricks, especially considering higurashi. something to consider.

[AuraTwilight]

That's...not what the article is saying at all. It's mocking the idea of people taking "Red Truth" and the like at face value without thinking; it's true, but can't be taken in a vacuum. For example, the reds that count Shannon and Kanon separately even though they're not.

The point being made here is the Red Truth is only valuable if you trust the speaker, and that it's not the "Word of God" in the sense that it shouldn't shut down your thinking.

It should be remembered that this article came out before EP4 did, when Shkanon was still a fairly well-kept secret on Ryukishi's part.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Uh? I'm not sure what you're implying. That Ep 8 was a daydream and after waking up from it and killing two people she started allucinating?
Because Erika surely doesn't represent Ange's coscience as she praises Ange's actions... unless Ange has a serious lack of morals...

I wonder why Ange was daydreaming? I could say I'm your opinion if Ange was not daydreaming.
And I clearly refered to the daydream, not Erika, as her conscience. Why?
Ange should have reasons and Erika might be a concept like Beatrice. Why that? Because she knew she would dissapoint her brother. Proof and hints? Look at his face after she told her first thought about Beatrice's quiz. The first thought is mostly the right decision.
In my opinion I found it strange to be highly ironic in that scene.

I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, the scene didn't show what will happen in the future years but the start it's not promising. Ange became a murderer. She just killed 2 people. And even if we, as readers, can excuse the murder of Amakusa because WE know he would actually harm her... (Ange doesn't, it just her theory) there's nothing to prove that Kawabata would do the same, just Ange's speculation.
I wouldn't call Ange becoming a murderer a good ending. Not mentioning she might be starting seeing things is she take her seeing Erika as 'litteral'... and if it's not litteral... she's merely using magic to justify herself.
The bad ending lead us to a 'black Ange' or whatever one wants to call her.

I wouldn't defend this but ...Cpt. Kawabata knew that Ange was in danger and only he and the former deceased servants... just saying.
The trick ending leaves us a open ending. Ange murdered two people, it doesn't mean she became 'black', I'd call her an anti-hero.

There's no proof whatsoever she learn something in the bad ending or that she gained some love. Also Ange was already shown in Ep 4 as someone who doesn't trust in people (she refused to drink what Okonogi offered her which, we know, wasn't poisoned or to use the car he offered her...) so it's not like her believing Amakusa might actually plan to harm her is 'something she learnt'.

→first quote
Then she shouldn't have a daydream. Then she would throw everything else (reuniting with her brother and family) away. You go against the story (isn't the same style of thinking of Rosatricers and Jessicatricers? )

Not really. Even in the VN she's back on serving Bern and destroying the golden land as cruelly as possible to the point that even Dlanor judged her beyond redemption.

Ange and EVA-Beatrice served her as well.
Beato made the statement "without love etc. ...." in EP6.
In EP8 even the villians changed their habits and thinking as well.

In the trick ending Ange murdered two people in cold blood due to her suspicions and decided to find fun exposing other people's 'sins/truths' be they real or speculated like Erika did, basically becoming an intellectual rapist as well.

While from a narrative point of view it might be interesting to have a paranoid, murder prone, cruel Ange living a happy life I'm not sure I'll call this a happy ending.
True, what constitute a happy ending is relative but well, I'll side with the group who wouldn't like the bad guy to walk away toward happiness.

It's hard to decide if she was heart cold as you said or anything else...Maybe because it's Ryukishi's work? If I compare it to the other (fictive and real) murders I would say she is worse.

[marianx]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's...not what the article is saying at all. It's mocking the idea of people taking "Red Truth" and the like at face value without thinking; it's true, but can't be taken in a vacuum. For example, the reds that count Shannon and Kanon separately even though they're not.

The point being made here is the Red Truth is only valuable if you trust the speaker, and that it's not the "Word of God" in the sense that it shouldn't shut down your thinking.

It should be remembered that this article came out before EP4 did, when Shkanon was still a fairly well-kept secret on Ryukishi's part.

what i got from the article, is that he said you have to trust her. no where did he claim red truth was actually the truth. he pretty much said everything is unverifiable. unless im misinterpreting this.

[marianx]

does anyone here have aim or skype? im trying to figure out umineko myself and i kind of want someone to talk to it about.