2016-02-01, 13:17 | Link #35501 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Basically in the first bit Ryukishi agreed that yes, everything is unverifiable but if you don't believe you can't solve the mystery (=if you completely reject the red truth then everything goes.... you've no basis for theorizing, if you don't try to solve the mystery with the info you have but keep on waiting for more info then you'll never solve it and so on). Beatrice challenges us to solve her mystery. With her rude words she's basically telling us to give it a try as it made it solvable and subtly she's also telling us to discharge the idea of X (=unknown people, element, trap, weapon, whatever). Ronove tackles directly the red truth. The red truth is true, we should trust Beatrice in this regard and use it to solve the mystery... but we shouldn't trust her blindly. Quote:
I feel bad for asking but I'm really having troubles following your logic. And I don't get how can you say that the first thought is the right decision. In the puzzle George and Jessica gave Ange it was proved the first thought wasn't the right decision twice. Quote:
This doesn't stop Ange from becoming 'black Ange' or whatever we want to call her. If we see Black Battler as the main character of Forgery XXX (or of the Ougon arcade with him and Kanon) he's an anti-hero as well as a psychopath murderer. The problem here is: it's all right to kill a person if you suspect he/she has ill intention toward you? Without real proof? Without trying to go for an alternate solution? After Ep 8 Ange didn't become a better person in the trick ending. Ange becomes a person who, should she suspect of you, will kill you without real proof you were betraying her. Quote:
I've summarized what she did in Ep 4. It's not even a theory. How this becomes going against the story? Quote:
Ange and EVA-BEATRICE served Bern for completely different purposes. It wasn't for their private enjoyment or in order to hurt others like Erika did. It's even possible to speculate that EVA-BEATRICE accepted to serve Bern because her aim was actually to help Ange (which she did many times during Ep 8). But still EVA-BEATRICE is not Erika and her motivations are completely different. Quote:
She could care less. She's cold hearted. |
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2016-02-01, 14:08 | Link #35502 | |
The True Culprit
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The Red Truth is an agreed upon rule. You can't play the game without respecting the rules. And you may skype me. I'll tell it to you privately.
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2016-02-01, 16:00 | Link #35503 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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I don't argue about whether she made the right decision or not. I was trying to give a signal "why should she daydream before making such decision?". I think how this scene starts I'd give the dream more significance. As you know there was nothing like that in EP4. What I'm saying about "first thought=mostly the best thought" is the same as 'intuition'. I did not say she decided her future according to instinct. It was a sign why Battler and Beato looked disappointed. Quote:
I like to see Black-Battler as Asumu's Battler. Quote:
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I know anyone who would serve Bern didn't mean he/she is villainous like Will. Erika was just given the evil role, but she was even accepted as a friend by Battler. She made a good job solving 5 and 6 (though I would say Erika could EP5 better). Indeed Erika gained love. |
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2016-02-02, 16:43 | Link #35504 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Also, the original point of discussion was 'what an Ange who chose the trick ending would have learnt' as you said she learnt something from it but not what and I said 'What Ange 'learns' in the trick ending is to continue to act like Erika....' and you seemed to... disagree? I'm not sure and I don't really get where this is going... Quote:
She actually had the time to express her feelings on her own actions quite clearly and there was not a sliver of regret in what she had done at the moment. You said Erika gained a 'bit' love after her time in the abyss. I said she didn't as she's shown back on being a jerk, happily hurting people to the point Dlanor got disgusted by her behaviour. At this point you said EVA and Ange served Bern too... ... and I got lost because, as I said, although EVA and Ange served Bern their situation couldn't be compared to Erika so them gaining love or not wouldn't work to prove that Erika gained love. Quote:
In Ep 8 there's not a single hint she 'gained love'. At best, she's pitiful because her lack of love is due to the traumas she received, is a way to cope with her pain. Erika thoroughly enjoy wrecking everything and she's willingly doing it. Let's not forget that Erika has a twisted personality regardless of the role given to her. Even when she's pinning the culprit, she's not doing it out of the godness of her heart or for a sense of justice but because she enjoys exposing truths others want to keep hidden. In short she's not doing it because she gained love. Battler being willing to accept her as a friend doesn't mean she's a nice person, just that he doesn't bear her any grudge. That's all about Battler being kind, not about Erika gaining love... and even Bern will comment on how Battler's kindness is his downfall. Back to the original point... we've no proof Erika gained love in Ep 8, actually Ep 8 pointed otherwise. |
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2016-02-03, 12:11 | Link #35505 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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The VN made the final ceremony very straight and everyone seemed to be ok no matter what the player choose. In the manga her "first" answer was the trick one ... I can tell by Battler's and Beato's faces that their mood saddened, and even Eva had a suprised look. Quote:
It's the same problem with the Black Witch: Nobody understands her. She killed 2 people and that's it. Bad person. Sayo planned to kill the whole family. Bad person. Genius!Battler used his relatives as pawns to revive a witch. Bad person. Natsuhi killed s.o.. Bad Person. We shouldn't use "Black" anymore to avoid confusion. For example Black-Battler was a sheep in wolf disguise. Black-Ange didn't show any sign to become "Erika". Ange and Erika have totally different temperaments. It's up to us to solve this problem, or else she will remain evil. Quote:
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Yeah this hint was love!As she said herself, somebody had to be the bad guy. I don't see why love is a privilege for the good guys. Beatrice even didn't show it until EP3. |
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2016-02-03, 18:44 | Link #35506 | ||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Also the manga made clear that Ange chose the magic ending. There's not even a discussion if we're talking about the manga. Quote:
Are you going to deny the rest of the scene because it's not convenient to your theory? Quote:
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Killing on the other side is a crime, a crime that causes a lot of pain. In Sayo's case it would have been a planned crime... though as she never committed it we don't know if she just told herself 'I'll do it' but then she would have come to her senses and not to it or she would have gone through it. In short what she wanted to do was bad... but as we can't say if she would have done it or not it becomes harder to judge her. In Natsuhi's case is a moment of insanity due to her precarious mind balance. We know Natsuhi regretted what she had done... but not enough to confess her own crime and receive punishment. In short she did the deed, had some excuses but the worst part is that she did her best to never pay for her crime. Human? Yes. Good? No. In Ange's case is a planned crime that she carried on and left her feeling accomplished and satisfied with herself. She's, among the people you mentioned, definitely the worst and I wouldn't wave it off saying just that 'She killed 2 people and that's it.' Will Ange redeem herself? So far it's pure speculation as there's no proof whatsoever she'll suddently become a good person. She states she wants to keep on continuing like this. At the moment Ange is a VERY bad person. It's a canon term as the embodiement of the Battler culprit theory is called 'Kuroki Battler' (=Black Battler) or B.Battler (=short for 'Black Battler') and also the evil side of Rosa is called Black Witch and Ange referred to EVA BEATRICE as such as well when she meant the Eva who abused her. 'Kuroki X' basically refers to the dark/evil version of a person. The only sheep in wolf disguise is the one in Ep 5... though note that in Ep 5 they do not mention black Battler, Battler just blames himself. So it would be Battler the one who's a sheep in wolf disguise, not black Battler. In Bern's game, in the forgeries, Black Battler is the magical representation of the culprit who killed everyone for his own satisfaction and the piece 'black Battler' embodies a merciless murder who takes pleasure in causing other people's pain. Quote:
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The Ange of the trick ending is evil. There's no playing around this. Amakusa's face and she states it both in the VN and in the manga. Quote:
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I got that much but you didn't prove I was wrong, you tossed in an unrelated fact and tried to use it as a basis to tell me I was wrong. Quote:
She takes sadistic pleasure in exposing the truth, in tearing apart the gameboard, in pushing Ange deep into desperation. Where's Erika's love you're talking about that she supposedly gained after being in the abyss? |
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2016-02-06, 15:01 | Link #35507 | |||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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Wasn't it clear the whole time ? Quote:
* Because of that I said she had conscience in the boat scene. Virgilia stated about Erika she understands magic. Thad could mean she had the other choice in her mind. Quote:
In Ange's case it was Eva's protective that drove her into a problematic life. Quote:
Battler justified his action in EP6 because he had to solve the game himself before an outsider else could with an other popular theory. 2) In that case...wouldn't it be better if she turned the bomb off?? If I would change my mind to save people I certainly will do it. In the manga ending Battler viewed her actions as an attempt and said it was justified because of her pain. 3) / 4) I used these examples to show another view on murders. Kawabata might be better killed off quick than having a tea time with Kasumi. Quote:
If we used this on Ange we can suppose Ange had a really good reason to kill off an innocent. Quote:
Bern's game had more than one solution. It seems Battler likes to ignore the red "Battler is not the culprit" to reach his goals. Quote:
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At the end of the EP6 she got some new insights of truth and she wasn't longer the witch of truth in the abyss. She knew the concept of "seeing with love". After all she isn't a witch, she wasn't one but a DETECTIVE. Erika represents the the way of facts and Beatrice the way of interpretations. Facts are naturally the enemies of hopes, isn't? I'd say Ryukishi represented this very good in EP6 and EP 8. |
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2016-02-07, 16:28 | Link #35508 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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When you said 'I read it yet' I assumed you meant 'I didn't read it yet' and forgot to write 'didn't'. If the misunderstanding was due to my poor English knowledge I apologize. Quote:
This doesn't answer to the first question 'why shouldn't they look sad?' as, at the beginning, it looked like Ange was going to chose trick not to the second 'Are you going to deny the rest of the scene?' Quote:
Neglecting her, beating her was all to help Maria to grow up? I fear we don't share the same educational system and values then... Also I'll say Maria is growing up as a disturbed child with no friends. That's not exactly what I'll call a successful result. Quote:
Again I fear we come from world with different values. In my country you aren't allowed to abuse a child because you've been abused. Quote:
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And Eva herself admitted she was keeping silent not just for Ange's benefit but also for her own. Eva murdered Natsuhi and Hideyoshi murdered Krauss. She didn't have the guts to tell Ange the truth when she was alive... but let the diary around so that Ange could end up finding the truth when Eva was conveniently dead. Quote:
Ep 6 doesn't show Battler solving the game nor stop people from trying to solve the game with other theories. Also if I was Battler's family in such situation he wouldn't even need to ask for my permission, I would want to help him. And we see in Ep 8 that no one complained and they're all glad for the story he woved for Ange. Also he's not having his relatives doing anything bad as they're merely playing a prank. Why do you find this bad while you're okay with Ange killing people? Quote:
Would it be smart to take time to deactivate a bomb who'll explode in around 23 hours when one needs to run saving everyone as they could be killed right now? Would it matter to deactivate the bomb if Kyrie and Rudolf had managed to kill everyone? Would it matter to deactivate the bomb when they could reactivate it? Quote:
Or she could have gone to the police with an excuse (asking for info about the case), from there use their protection to freely hire her own bodyguards since she has money to use freely, fire Amakusa, not go to Rokkenjima and play for him the role of bait. Or point a gun on Kawabata's head and demand him to turn the boat around. Or tie him somewhere. Or many, many other things that didn't involve killing him in cold blood. Quote:
Although B. Battler and EVA-Beatrice were also occasionally used to diguise the culprits they were, in other situation, played completely straight as in they didn't disguised anything. They were the culprit. And they weren't necessarily used only with good reasons. B.Battler is often used for other people's amusement. Quote:
No. Bern's game has only one solution. Ryukishi said: Quote:
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Bern never knew of this red and was therefore in no obligation of using it in her game. Of course she knows that in Beato's games the culprit was neither Battler's family nor George's family but Sayo but the same doesn't apply for her game. Even in Ep 8 Beato says that Battler not being the culprit applied to her games but that as this was Bern's game it was okay for her to make him the culprit. Quote:
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"I asked for help and no one heard" can kill my hope that someone will help me. "I asked for help and someone heard" gives me hope that the one who heard me will come to help me. And Erika didn't need love to solve things just with that red hint in the same way as she didn't need love to solve the trick of the cup in Ep 6. Erika doesn't look at Beato's games with 'love' but with the longing to crush them, expose the truth Beato and Battler want to hide and hurt them. The only thing for which she has love is the idea she could hurt them. Last edited by jjblue1; 2016-02-08 at 07:53. |
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2016-02-09, 06:46 | Link #35509 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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This is a hard question... I would support, but I don't want to release stories about dead relatives. |
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2016-02-09, 12:50 | Link #35510 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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We know Rosa was abused during her childhood and that her behaviour is likely due to it. As pitiful as her situation is, this doesn't allow her to abuse Maria. Spoiler for Ep 4: Ange's bullying Under spoiler cut because there are really LOTS of scenes...:
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It also explained that Tohya released Banquet as an attempt to expose what he believed was Eva's sin (he thought Eva had killed everyone) without exposing himself (he didn't acknowledge himself as Battler and didn't want to be acknowledged as such). In short he didn't do it out of fun or malice toward his relatives but in attempt to pin the blame on the one he believed was the culprit. Also note that Banquet, Alliance and End written by Tohya were described as different from the ones we read so we can't say exactly how they were (beyond Banquet pinning Eva as the culprit). We know only that when Tohya met up with Eva and discovered she was innocent he was the leading force among forgery makers (apparently due to him they had grown exponentially) and that, as soon as he found out the truth, realized his actions not only didn't pin the blame on the right culprit but were hurting his sister so he did his best to silence everything. In short Banquet was, for sure, released with the purpose to bring justice for his dead relatives... Alliance and End we can't know as we might not be reading them as Tohya wrote them. I wouldn't say his intents were meant to be cruel toward the Ushiromiya (whom, to be honest he didn't acknowledge as relatives). Just misguided and not carefully planned as he didn't realize they could have a backlash that could affect Ange. |
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2016-02-10, 19:12 | Link #35511 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
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I'm currently reading Umineko Episode 8
Spoiler for Epsiode 8:
No spoilers please I haven't figured out everything about the Rokkenjima Incident. I'm planning to reread everything after I'm done with episode 8. Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2016-02-10 at 19:26. |
2016-02-10, 19:33 | Link #35512 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Example: Innocent person: I believe X is dead (= X is surely dead) Culprit: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as the culprit can lie) If Nanjo is the culprit this statement might be a lie therefore an innocent person might mistake an alive person for a dead one. Example: Innocent person: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as he could be making a mistake) Culprit: I believe X is dead (= X's dead or alive status is unknown as the culprit can lie and make mistakes) |
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2016-02-10, 19:38 | Link #35513 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
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Does this mean red truth can be used to state falsehoods as long as the stater believes it? Or is the following rule wrong? "Purple statements are as absolute as red truth. However, the culprit alone may lie with purple statements." Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2016-02-10 at 20:13. |
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2016-02-11, 08:17 | Link #35514 | |
貴方が私のマスターか?
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Georgia, Tbilisi
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However Red Truth has its flaws. Just as any logic has the flaw of noise, so does the Red.
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2016-02-11, 18:12 | Link #35515 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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You can't say that 'the sun is blue' just because you believe so. However I think it would be possible to say I BELIEVE the sun is blue because in this case the red truth would refer to what you believe (you truly believe the sun is blue even if actually it's not) and variation of the themes, not to the true colour of the sun. Red truth must state true things. However red can still be misleading. For example in the previous example you might believe my belief was true (=the sun is blue) when the only true thing was that I believed in something false (=the sun isn't blue but I'm sure it is). There are also more situations in which red can still trick you into believing in something false without stating something false but I'll let you guess them. |
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2016-02-12, 17:55 | Link #35516 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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if anyone has skype or aim, and solve umineko message me. i want to talk to someone about it so i can figure it out myself. my skype is zaryo@live.com
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2016-02-14, 15:12 | Link #35517 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Hey guys, I'm a long time lurker and although I've read and re-read the VN/Manga few times there are still few things I don't quite understand. Hopefully you can help me understand it:
1: Ange's timeline. What happened and what didn't happened, and when did it happen compared to other events? If we refer to the magic ending Ange must've met Hachijo Ikuko, but Featherine says their meeting is an illusion or something like this. Also if they met, I am not certain that Ange could've gone to Rokkenjima so I guess that the events from where Ange jumps from the building, goes to rokkenjima and kills Sumadera are something Ange imaginated ? Since in the magic ending she apparently never went on rokkenjima to begin with. 2 : Episode 3 Shkannon murders. I get the whole Shkanontrice thing but how can Yasu still walk and kill if Shannon and Kanon are dead ? How can one still walk and kill when her two main personaes are dead ? I believe Yasu isn't included as one of her personae so I don't quite get it. 3: Erika's perception of Shannon and Kanon at the same time. Ok the narrator in this episode is Battler and he shows us Kanon and Shannon together at the same time even though Erika is told that kanon or Shannon is away for some reason WHILE the other one is there, ok. But then why do Erika and the Eiseirn Jungfrau perceive Kanon and Shannon at the same time when going back to what happened? They should have realized that the two point of view don't match. That happens after Erika looses against battler in Kinzo's room. (Sorry for the english errors ^-^) Last edited by Rentora; 2016-02-14 at 16:13. |
2016-02-14, 15:44 | Link #35518 |
The True Culprit
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1. Everything that occurs after EP4 can be treated as a Forgery; Toya's speculations on what happened to her after she went missing after Eva's death. The Magic Ending, where she doesn't jump, changes her identity, and meets the Hachijous, seems to be her true timeline, though she seems to have memory of all of them because of her jaunt through the Meta-World, maybe.
2. Yasu's trick is that she considers Shannon and Kanon to be people, but not herself. If her two main personas are dead, then she's her "Beatrice" persona, who is a "Witch." She can thus walk around unimpeded. 3. Erika technically never witnesses Shannon and Kanon together at the same time. It's especially weasel-y, but basically the implication is that Yasu was there as Shannon, faked Kanon's voice, and claimed he was behind Gohda or something.
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2016-02-14, 19:16 | Link #35519 | ||
貴方が私のマスターか?
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Georgia, Tbilisi
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I think EP8 manga confirms that Erika did not witness Kanon in that super annoying EP5 scene. Quote:
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2016-02-15, 01:55 | Link #35520 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
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1: Still, even if what we're shown were Tohya speculations, Ange must have met Ikuko at some point and learn about the truth inside Eva's diary. So we aren't shown at all when and how those events happened ? The magic endings implies that Ange has already done her "magical journey" and knows about rokkenjima prime and is the witch of resurrection. When did she learn about the truth in the book anyway and when did she meet Ikuko ?
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And in episode 8 Erika claims that Kanon and Shannon were never in the same room together at the same time. Spoiler for image:
So if we refer to this part of the manga none of Erika and the Eisern Jungfrau noticed something was off. If we don't, then Erika must have been really focused on cornering Natsuhi to not realize she never saw Kanon and shannon together in the same room, while she probably heard Kanon talking behind Gohda or something. |
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