2017-03-02, 04:50 | Link #35601 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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So in my view, yeah it would be weird if the servants won't add a statement if they were locking the door. But if we apply Battler's chessboard thinking on this: Why should the servants put theirself in a bad sitation? Actually no, I think everybody else would declare to this point they are the culprits (I do not mean Meta Battler and Beatrice). Would they have the courage to say "Battler-sama said so."Maybe yes, Godha has the habit to slip something like that out sometimes. Did Battler consired that risk? Yes, he lied about his parents. Nanjo also could checked every from the first twilight. You should get the idea. Umineko's logic might be its strenght, but also its weakness? Nanjo do help the culprits by not doing his duty of care. Weird for a doctor, isn't? Absurd actions is a staple in this series, Higurashi is excused because of the syndrome. But I'm happy about this because if not Umineko would repeated like Higurashi did I think. For the ending: It could be that Ange saw an "illusion"or exaggeration of that game. Bern stated the game stopped after the 3 survivors found dead Jessica. Not after the epilogue. It would be a unfair trick that the child culprit could kill the last 2 survivors to "gain a kill" to be declared as a killer. About hints: Bern said she ommited tricks and motives, however the game has a view tricks like Battler letting Kyrie in the guesthouse or the hiding. But they were never stated in the rules... It's up to you to believe Bern's words. Well Umineko want to enforce "detective novel writing rules", the game itself also said you don't need to unless it's a Knox-esque or Van Dine-esque mystery. You are free to use them to use on the first 4 games, I believe. It's stated in red that Battler is not the culprit in all games, think about it, it was commented by Beatrice but uncommented by Bern. (maybe Asumu's dead baby Battler?) About the rules: Yes I also thought that, too. I believe Bern wanted to lead the game in a certain way to inflict pain/irritate Battler/Ange (Battler killed Shannon and Ange saw her parents were murdering), so she left out the fact of Natsuhi as a murderer. Bern is a game master for the challenge. I believe it too Ange was put on the gameboard (she had blood on her fingers)-at least the fragment HAS Ange in it. |
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2017-03-05, 10:38 | Link #35602 | |||||||
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
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I think I get your point: you want to say that as long as it is not against the rules, every logic is allowed. Even if it seems to be a bit weird at first. And Umineko itself addresses this quite often: to think outside of the usual margin. Quote:
But the reason why I still won't accept this is simply: Rule: "People who are not the culprit don't aid the culprit." It doesn't matter if you help intentionally or unintentionally, the rule states that you cannot (!) help the culprit. And with this solution, Battler can only go on murdering exactly because he receives help, whatever the servants' motivation might be. Quote:
So is my understanding correct that you want to say: the ending we saw is not the ending of the story but only a wrong one Ange saw? Where the rules don't apply? Quote:
Yes, you are free to think the rules of Knox don't apply. But I don't follow it. Because 1.) The same can be said for the red truth - the only reason we are given to apply this is that Beato says we should trust her, so it's the same for her and the mystery-rules. 2) Umineko makes a point of this, saying that if you don't follow the rules of mystery, the game becomes a fantasy for you. Therefore, I don't see why I should apply the rules only to game 1-4, especially when Dlanor and Will are fighting with red in Episode 5,6,7 and 8 as well, using their swords that personifies these mystery-rules. But overall, this is a different matter and I haven't thought about this very much. Still, even if we assume they don't apply for Bern's game, the problem with the "help" still remains, doesn't it? Quote:
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Furthermore, there are some hints that Bern is indeed working AGAINST Ange, but FOR Battler. Last edited by Lila; 2017-03-06 at 05:12. |
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2017-07-07, 12:18 | Link #35603 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
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I've been reading a bunch of past replies in this thread and elsewhere (since most discussion about Umineko obviously occurred long before I read it), and I'm genuinely confused by people who don't seem to understand Yasu's motives (when they're already aware of the details, that is, because I can understand thinking her actions are bizarre if you believe the issue is just Battler not returning). I think that it's a flaw of Umineko's that the motive isn't made more clear, but it should make perfect sense once you understand it.
Like, this person has a mutilated body and suddenly discovered (while already in a romantic relationship with someone who constantly talks about wanting children!) that she's physically a different sex than she thought and was born from incestuous rape (not to mention the stuff about Genji and Kumasawa lying to her). That's some pretty heavy shit! It's not unreasonable at all (especially in 1980's Japan) for her to assume that her physical condition means that finding love will be virtually impossible, or even that George might flip his shit and murder her or something if he finds out (since this is kinda a thing that actually happens in real life). Even ignoring love, it means that she'll have to hide a very important part of "who she is" from other people, because of a (completely reasonable) fear of how they might react. Basically you have someone with almost no social support system in a situation where they feel completely trapped and subhuman (both because of her body and the conditions of her conception). The bomb is very appealing, because she sees it as the only way that she can effectively preserve the legitimacy of her identities and romantic relationships. Post-bomb, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, Shannon was a normal girl who had just become engaged to George. If not for the bomb, she almost certainly would have never committed any murders, but the bomb is a particularly appealing form of mutual suicide for the aforementioned reasons (in addition to being instantaneous and likely painless). Even then, there's a big part of her that realizes this is crazy and wrong (this is expressed through Kanon's opposition to Beatrice). As for why she doesn't just express her feelings and identity to Battler (and instead plans to take the roundabout method of pressuring him to solve the murders), I think the issue is that she both wants him to understand while also being terrified of him understanding (both because she's afraid of him rejecting or being disgusted by her, and because it might effectively mean erasing her other public faces). It's not perfectly rational, but I think it's very understandable to have both those feelings, even if they seem contradictory. Also, it is very debatable whether she could have actually carried out the "first-hand" murders (as opposed to the bomb, which I think she definitely could have done). It's one thing to write about smashing someone's face, and another thing entirely to actually do it. Ultimately, you're not supposed to think her actions are entirely rational. Obviously the completely rational thing would be for her to realize that there's more to life than Rokkenjima and her current personal relationships. But I think it's entirely reasonable for someone in her situation (who has basically been confined to this small, limited environment their entire life) to have difficulty conceiving of anything more. The story even brings this up multiple times, like when Shannon says something along the lines of "To these fish, this tank is no different from the ocean" while in the aquarium with George. As far as she's conceived, Rokkenjima and the Ushiromiyas are her entire life. edit: The worst thing is the people who act like Yasu had some self-pity complex, when her problems were actually really, really bad! It's like looking at transgender suicide rates and saying "heh clearly they just couldn't stop pitying themselves" (and Yasu's situation is arguably even worse than that in a variety of ways). It's an attitude that clearly seems to stem from a person having a sheltered, easy life themselves. |
2017-07-07, 13:39 | Link #35604 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
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It's a fine motive for everything other than the bomb. That's just pure madness.
She was rich, after all. It would not have been much trouble to run away from everything, which I think would be my first idea in her shoes. If really driven to a corner, I could understand suicide and maybe disguising it as an accident. Instead, she goes straight for the "kill everyone" option, and I'm sure she has an idea of what will happen to Ange, too. If she hated all those people, that would be one thing, but the story suggests the opposite. All her animosity is directed at herself. She seems to even have forgiven Kinzo. That's why it's a bit hard to swallow, and why people looked for another culprit so long.
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2017-08-31, 12:44 | Link #35605 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
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Hallo everyone,
I wanted to ask just to make sure. In the manga of Episode 3 - 6 (Kuwadorian), Beato says in red that "there are no more than 18 people" BUT that is only the translation, because in the Japanese original she says: "there are no more than 19 people". So, is there something about the Japanese construction of "ijou" that I am not aware of or is that simply a translation "mistake"/"alteration"? Does anyone know? Last edited by Lila; 2017-09-02 at 10:03. |
2017-09-01, 09:33 | Link #35606 | ||
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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I think in reality people have run amok for - objectively seen - "lesser" reasons. There are so many factors that influence a person that it's hard to say what impact certain events have on someone. So I think it's not unthinkable that Sayo would commit mass-murder. But I'll add this: She blames Battler in Episode 4 - a person who as a 12- (!) year-old boy promised to come to the island - for the events on Rokkenjima. If it meant so much to her, she should have left the island and looked for him. Instead she chose mass-murder... So no matter how you look at it, even if I won't call her motives unrealistic, to defend her is damn hard in my opinion. But even Sayo herself admits this at the end - that she was always finding excuses and was always the passive one, hoping for someone else to "save" her. And so she herself admits what you criticise here: Quote:
This is my personal opinion, so of course, feel free to disagree, but I really dislike Sayo as a character, because she never tries to change anything on her own. That's why the alterations in Episode 8 manga are so good! She finally stops blaming everyone else and in the chapter "Umineko no naku koro ni", she actively influences the outcome of the story in a positive way. (I'm saying all this without following the Shkanontrice-theory) Last edited by Lila; 2017-09-02 at 09:58. |
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2017-09-07, 18:24 | Link #35609 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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この六軒島には19人以上の人間は存在しない! Which would be litterally translated as: "There are not 19 people or more" but as this would feel weird in English everyone choses the "there are no more than 18 people" translation as it means exactly the same (if the number of the people on the island isn't 19 or a number bigger than 19 it can be only a number in between 1 and 18 hence there are no more than 19 people). I hope this helps! |
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2017-09-13, 18:33 | Link #35611 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Umineko isn't a story I felt like I've fully managed to understand the scope of. I've read the visual novel twice, and while I do understand who the culprit is, why the murders were done, I can't say how. I'm no good at making theories or arguing against red/blue truth, and I want to believe in the fantasy side of things. I know it's a mystery, but it's much more comfortable for me to take it as fantasy anyway. I felt personally attacked in EP8, since I was definitely in the same position as some of the goats.
But, Umineko is an important story to me and it became a large part of who I am. I can't imagine my life without having read it. A lot of the characters have become like friends to me, and I fully want to believe in the miracle of magic, even if it's ridiculous. I love this visual novel so much, and the ending is glorious in ways I can't even describe. Many tears were shed. Hah. |
2017-12-27, 06:37 | Link #35612 |
The GAP Man
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You may heard this before but is it necessary to familiarize yourself with mystery stories to understand Umineko's commentary on the mystery genre? I really was more attracted to the character designs and 'idea' of Umineko rather than the actual mystery in the game.
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2017-12-30, 09:54 | Link #35613 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
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But thanks a lot. |
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2017-12-30, 09:55 | Link #35614 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
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Last edited by Lila; 2017-12-31 at 06:02. |
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2017-12-30, 09:58 | Link #35615 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
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So even though the forum seems to be really dead, I want to ask anyways: I am looking for an open-minded person That means: S/he shouldn't be fixed on Shkanontrice or Rosatrice or whatever and accept and think about some new input. I want to try something ^^
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