2022-09-21, 19:07 | Link #341 | |
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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Anyway, for the VA its mostly about healthcare and savings, for Crunchyroll its about money. Otherwise I somehow doubt this is a place you're going to find many dub fans, though there might be a few in the woodwork. I can't really comment on what would make a good dub but when you hear about actors like Giancarlo Esposito in Edgerunners it seems good for the industry as a whole. |
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2022-09-21, 21:21 | Link #342 | |
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When doing these kinds of extremely-time-constrained productions, money will honestly not be the biggest factor. And again, as the actor explained, the issue was not the price they were willing to pay for the job either. By doing a simuldub, their costs will automatically go up compared to a more normal dub schedule. The biggest issue for this kind of production will be about eliminating potential barriers/roadblocks (anything that could be hard to control at the last minute), and I can see how they might consider anyone out-of-market such a complication. The larger point I was trying to get at was whether it's really so important/critical to prioritize timeliness over quality/continuity for dubs, but clearly someone thinks so.
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2022-09-21, 21:51 | Link #343 | |||
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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2022-09-21, 23:14 | Link #344 | ||
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Experience with complex production management. The tighter your timelines, the less margin you have for error. You need to have redundancies for key staff. You may have to get people to come in off their normal schedule to deal with external delays. You may have to pay a premium to have things expedited. It also has a higher overhead for management because you need to keep things moving much more quickly between the stages and addressing any issues in real-time. Dub production is much more involved/elaborate than sub production (many more steps/stages), which is why it *typically* has lagged behind subs, so speeding up that process is necessarily more expensive.
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But anyway, what happened here is that Crunchyroll merged with Funimation, and rather than farming out dub work to LA-based studios like Bang Zoom! (who produced the dubs for previous seasons of this show), they are doing them in-house instead. This same sort of thing happened in the past too when Funimation would license a show that had been previously licensed by someone else, and you'd get this controversy about roles being recast to avoid dealing with union actors. In the grand scheme of things, it's worth drawing attention to in the sense that increased consolidation in the industry means less competition, and it comes at the expense of quality and continuity. And yeah, because it's Funimation behind the scenes, it means it comes at the expense of unionized actors as well. But it's not like anyone should be at all surprised that merging all these companies was about creating internal efficiencies. (To be a one-stop-shop that can offer simulsub + simuldub + wide distribution was obviously a goal.) Quote:
I would actually applaud wide-scale unionization across the anime industry, so don't take my measured response and cynicism as being some attempt to justify the actions of some greedy megacorporation. But at the same time, any honest look at what's going on here can see that getting Funimation/CR to "just meet" with the union is not nearly as small of an ask as they're making it sound (it involves Legal -- have you ever dealt with Legal?), especially when it's a simuldub that starts airing in weeks (so casting decisions were made long ago). This is a PR campaign packaged for easy fan consumption. We'll see if it has an impact.
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2022-09-22, 06:51 | Link #345 | |
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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Let me backtrack for a moment here though, because I don't think you understand that the fact they're based out of Texas to begin with is to keep costs low. Texas isn't exactly known as a hotbed of acting talent, aside from anime dubbing there's basically nothing there for aspiring actors. Committing to their "internal team" means a commitment to bottom tier (and obviously non union) talent who is either hoping for something better or who didn't really have the talent in the first place. Monopoly Crunchyroll probably has the leverage to push more actors to move to Texas, but that doesn't remotely mean the overall quality (or continuity, or consistency) of dubs will improve. There's zero commitment to quality in CR's actions, and IMO people are right to be fed up. |
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2022-09-22, 19:22 | Link #346 | |
Seishu's Ace
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2022-09-22, 23:46 | Link #347 | |||
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It's basically impossible to have a discussion with you if you keep interpreting everything I say in the worst way possible, accuse me of being disingenuous, and turn everything back to the same single one-note issue as if nothing else matters at all. I'm not trying to attack or discredit you or say that you're wrong, nor am I even trying to suggest that others who are mad are wrong, but the point of a forum is to have discussions about nuanced topics. And even though this issue is being presented in a very simple way, the fact is that it's a complex topic that has a lot of history behind it. If you prefer I could just sit here and say that Crunchryroll are cheap anti-union assholes who don't care about anime quality and all deserve to be fired, and Sony is an evil megacorporation who is just trying to extract maximum revenue from workers in the anime space so their executives can get huge bonuses. That may be true on some level, but it's also over-simplistic and there's nothing to actually discuss. Ever since you posted your comment in this thread, it was mostly just one quip after another from people basically saying "yup, Crunchyroll is shit" and I really don't care about people's +1 quips. This forum is to have conversations, so I am trying to delve into the topic with more angles to consider. But whatever I say it's just like "no, fuck you, they're anti-union and that's the end of it, and you not admitting that makes you anti-union too." I mean, seriously, please stop. You don't know me. I like discussing topics from many angles and trying to see the many sides of things. The world is never so black-and-white. We should be able to have more complex discussions about this kind of thing, even if we may disagree. Quote:
And, as I explained before, going the simuldub route is an explicit choice to prioritize speed. It is literally a "rush job" compared to the standard of the industry. They are doing this rush even though it may make things more complicated for them due to the tight production constraints. Choosing speed often comes at the expense of quality. (The classic project management triangle of "fast, cheap, good -- pick two") This is why I asked in the first place: are simuldubs really such a big deal that it's worth sacrificing quality and continuity over? I'm not sure that it is (it isn't what I would choose), but this test is certainly going to find out what the masses think. Quote:
Obviously there are better-paying employers than others, and the good translators are trying to secure the better gigs (better pay, better deadlines, more commitment to quality, etc.). CR does not have a reputation for good pay and their focus is on speed/efficiency over quality, that is for sure. But at the same time, there are better offers, and there are also worse ones. The VN translation scene, for instance, is rather famous for rates even worse than CR, basically to the hobby level (though there are a few exceptions). In general, the attitude towards translation isn't that great among many employers and it doesn't appear to be that valued among a lot of the general fanbase. (Even Netflix, which you mentioned earlier, has gotten into several controversies recently about the quality of their translations.) It goes back to what I said earlier that I wish people in general valued quality over "fast and cheap" in this general space. There certainly are still some who do, but it seems far too few and far between.
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2022-09-23, 07:21 | Link #348 | |||||
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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Its also misguided to compare an industry like voice acting with corporate divisions where basically any MBA will do. Acting is a craft that is geographically centered outside of Texas in the US, so if you're trying to force people to work there you need to either lure people there or settle for what you get. Quote:
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I'm not sure if you're aware but Seven Seas actually unionized across the board earlier this year. Last edited by stray; 2022-09-23 at 07:53. |
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2022-09-23, 11:58 | Link #349 |
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As I recall from the early days of CR, translators like Quarkboy reported they'd often not receive the final scripts until a day or two before the telecast. Has that improved now that day/date sub releases are commonplace? Pretty hard to do simuldubbing when you don't have a script.
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2022-09-23, 15:53 | Link #350 | ||
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So you think of what kind of conditions are needed to perform all these steps into such a short period of time. The usual way to solve this kind of problem is for all the players to be working very closely so that you can solve every problem in real-time -- sort of like how you'd handle a live broadcast station or something, with everyone at arm's reach and the someone calling the shots live. You need a really talented line producer with lots of experience, and extremely competent staff who work well in high-pressure time-sensitive environments. ANN reposted this article from May this year that addresses the larger goal of unionizing production at Crunchyroll, and anticipated that the return to in-person dubbing at the Texas facility (and the desire to use their in-house studio) would create exactly this problem. But it also talks about the fact they upgraded their studio space and that one of the benefits of in-person dubbing was normalizing the sound quality. These are the exact kinds of optimizations you'd be looking for if your goal was ultimately to reduce the production turnaround time to support simuldubs. From their point of view, they may think that something as complex as simuldubs is only possible because all the staff are local, everything happens in-house and in-person with their upgraded studio tools. From a pure process-optimization standpoint, that makes sense. This is why I asked before: are simuldubs really worth it if it comes at the expense of quality and continuity? In other words, the thinking likely goes like this: 1. We contractually agreed with the production committee to do this as a simuldub. 2. In order to pull off the complex logistics of a simuldub, we need to rely on our in-house studio and have everyone record in-person to improve turnaround time and reduce risk. 3. Therefore, we need to recast the actors that aren't local. But they arguably started from a totally wrong premise. If they valued quality and continuity more, it'd be like: 1. We want to ensure a good experience for dub fans, and that means bringing back all the old talent, even though they're out of market. 2. Logistically this will require more time to work remotely and balance the difference in audio clips from various remote actors. It's better to do this properly than on a constant time-crunch. 3. Therefore, we should inform the production committee that simuldub is not possible on this show, and we'll dub on a more normal/regular production schedule to provide a better experience to the fans. Quote:
The ANN article linked is talking about efforts to get the whole studio unionized -- I am 100% in favor. If they are moving towards this kind of time-sensitive simuldub production, then it's all the more important to balance the worker experience with the demanding needs of dynamic productions with lots of potential unknowns. For example, with this kind of time-sensitive production, you might need to call an actor back into the studio at the last minute to re-record some lines, or when materials come in late you might need to ask your production staff to work late to otherwise hit the deadlines. Because of the very tight timelines, these are "drop everything and do this now" kind of demands (it's basically "on call"), so how are people compensated for those kinds of out-of-the-norm situations? Without any kind of worker protection or consideration, it has the potential to be a very bad work environment. Being unionized doesn't solve all the issues that simuldubs entail, but it makes the conversation about how to address those issues a bit more balanced between management objectives and the workers. I think you still may find that, in the case of simuldub productions, they still want to do everything in-person at their main studio just for the logistical benefits. But at least it would provide better assurance that the workers are treated fairly and compensated properly. Now that's what I think *should* happen. But whether that is the takeaway from this whole situation or not, we'll see.
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2022-09-23, 18:29 | Link #351 | ||||
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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Personally I've always been kind of jealous of the Japanese style and felt like western dubbing was incredibly sterile because of this but again I'm not trying to really shit on dubs here. Japanese still record individually for VN and games and such. Quote:
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Anyway, you seem pretty cynical but the link you posted from May proves this movement didn't come out of nowhere. Japanese media has a spotty history in the west and for a long time people were happy to have a translation or a dub at all, but after a billion dollar merger people can concern themselves with quality and continuity. And a billion dollar company ($85B really) doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that a scrappy independent gets. And then there's also the issue of animator pay, but that's bigger than Crunchyroll though I doubt their involvement on production committees is necessarily helping. |
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2022-09-24, 01:22 | Link #352 | |||||
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And of course I never said it was "impossible." I'm saying that the more you try to shorten the schedule and achieve "day-and-date" release (which seems to be their goal), the more you need to focus on efficiency. And when you're focused on maximizing efficiency, it makes sense to try to do more things in-house. And the point I was getting at to start with is that, for simuldubs, the return to the office (after pandemic-driven WfH) and trying to do more work in-studio is probably their goal more than specifically spiting unions -- even though the fact their "house" is in Texas, a notoriously union-hostile state, is no coincidence either. Quote:
It's like... let's go back to the origins of this site as a fansub hub for a minute. What we learned back in the day was that the vast majority of the downloads for an episode went to whatever sub came out fastest, even if they were "speedsubs" (i.e., lower quality). Some people would wait for the "good subs" but most just wanted fast. (Some people would download both and they'd keep the good fansubs for archival. The fansub/scanlation groups I was in always focused more on quality than speed, because that's what most of us cared about most, and it's one of the reasons I eventually left the scene -- producing quality work takes time and not that many people valued that effort.) As Crunchyroll transitioned from an illegal fansub reposting site to a licensed streaming site, they learned the same lesson fansubbers did: the masses care more about fast than they do about quality. And they also saw that there were plenty of fans who could do fast translation work cheap, and they co-opted that cheap labor as their business model. The point about "they're a rich company now, they should be held to a higher standard"... I guess that's where my cynicism really comes in. Companies care about metrics. If their data showed that they would increase their conversions and views by focusing on quality, they'd do it. But if their data supports that "we can improve our efficiency by moving everything in house and reduce turnaround time, and that increases our conversions/views even higher" -- that's what they'll do. So absent truly strong demand from customers that correlates with metrics (and not just a spat on social media), it's probably right that unionization (or threat of it) is one of the only semi-reliable ways to push companies towards valuing anything other than maximizing RoI and increasing profit for the shareholders/owners.
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2022-09-24, 08:04 | Link #353 | ||
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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Its become pretty common in gaming to have simultaneous worldwide release of games that years ago required 6 months or more to localize and dub. Atlus for example just put out Soul Hackers 2 globally last month. Its no longer accepted for the American production team to start only after the Japanese production team has concluded, especially with western companies more involved in the production. Monopsony is probably a better word (than monopoly) to describe the problem with Crunchyroll right now; the leverage they have over dub actors and the leverage they're gaining within Japan. Quote:
That's the thing, you've got this whole argument that this somehow isn't about money but... in the end its about money. Union are craftspeople with experience who are perfectly capable of working on a tight deadline but who expect to be paid commensurately. That's the issue. Whatever bullshit you're saying about "traditional dub schedules" is a distraction that sounds incredibly anti-union. |
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2022-09-24, 18:40 | Link #354 | ||
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So anyway, I think I've been plenty patient in trying to explain myself as clearly as I can, but I'm done.
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2022-09-24, 21:05 | Link #355 | ||
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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2022-09-25, 10:10 | Link #357 | |
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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AFAIK it depends on where in the process production is. Normally key animation is complete but inbetween animation is what can sometimes bump up against broadcast schedules.
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2022-10-15, 20:10 | Link #358 |
Speedy Sea Cucumber
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On the video gaming side of things Bayonetta's (previous) English VA took to Twitter to shame Nintendo and Platinum for their lowball offer.
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2022-10-16, 08:21 | Link #359 | |
You're Hot, Cupcake
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You have to invest something significant in the voices to make it work. Game devs are already on gruelling schedules and get little of the financial gains or credit in Western companies. For a lot of the workplace issues Japan has, they seem to treat the VA talent better overall in terms of payment and future opportunities. Emphasis on overall but it feels like a success story like Crispin Freeman just wouldn't happen today.
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2022-10-18, 14:18 | Link #360 | |
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Looks like she was offered way beyond union rates, but she wanted more. Maybe she was ill advised by her agent, who knows. |
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