[Manga] Chapter 464 Discussion

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Rurik

NOTE: lonewolf, for double post, you can always use the edit button/delete button, take advantage of those forum tools!!!!...>__<

Thanks for the tip. I learned about that one after I was severely reprimanded more than once for double posts XD Haha.... in this particular instance, though, I didn't know where to fit in that last piece into my original post, so I just risked a double post.

Originally Posted by Rurik

No, it was against Haku, he tried to use it against Rock Lee.

Thank you for correcting me.

Originally Posted by Rurik

What I need you to quote me the Manga where Itachi’s development as the strong Ninja was shown to us.

Let get serious here, aside from Naruto (and you could argue about Rock Lee) no other Character has been shown to us on how he develop his strength The most you are going to read is: I going to train this, Chouji take this pill and you will get N times more bigger than you already are, Neeji can do stuff without teacher because he is a genius, I have a sense of smell better than my Ninja dogs, Each time Im presented in the Manga I have a much more powerful Puppet. Do you want me to continue?

If you are going to talk about power-ups, why do you need specifically for Sasuke to be shown the development, and not The others….Heck, Jiriaya is shown to be strong as hell, because? Because he is a legendary Sanin, and you have to accept it like that, end of story.

For the first point, see my response to james0246 a little earlier.

With regards to the rest, I don't need to see Sasuke training or whatever, but at least give us an explanation. With the example of Chouji, Kiba, Kankurou, and Neji, none of them are given as much screen time as Sasuke; in their considerably long absences, it's reasonable enough to assume that they did something to improve. With Sasuke, however, it goes from losing to someone to owning the next who is stronger about 3 minutes later. I need it to make sense that Sasuke has gone from that level to the next in such a short time for me to accept it. It's not like he gained a little power-up. He went from being in a group and losing to fighting a powerful group and doing serious damage at least and maybe winning (it remains to be seen whether or not he'll win) in the time it took Naruto to beat Pein and meet at the Kage summit. Somehow, after using the Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu once, he has now mastered it to a level which surpasses Itachi, who has had the Mangekyou since he was 13. Sasuke was NEVER shown to be the same as Itachi - in fact, Kishimoto has put ample emphasis into the fact that he was in his shadow when he was a kid. Even 12 year old Sasuke wasn't nearly as impressive as young Itachi was, who led the Anbu and was feared by his own clan.

Now, as for past characters' strength, such as Jiraiya, Pein, Itachi, Madara, etc., if they're introduced as a monster, then it's safe to assume that that's what they are, and something in their past, which isn't shown for time continuity purposes, caused that. But Sasuke was introduced as a genius kid with a lot of potential, but still nothing extra, extra special, ie not like Itachi or Nagato.

Originally Posted by james0246

Ignoring for a minute the double standard, the fact of the matter is, Sasuke and his use of the Sharingan has always been spoken of as being better than Itachi's. Whether it be the potential of his Sharingan (which Orochimaru and others spoke about) or his actions (being able to suppress the Kyuubi with a non-mangekyou sharingan or breaking free of Tsukuyomi, and the possible invention of new techniques that ustilize the MS more efficiently), Sasuke's Sharingan has always been ranked as the overall highest in the series. Consequently, his power growth is directly tied to the growth of his control and mastery over his Sharingan. Which, in turn, means that we have seen every single development of Sasuke's because we have seen every single development of his Sharingan (which evolves via emotion, and in battle, not during training sequences).

I don't deny any of what you said here, but the ending statement in parantheses is exactly the problem. As I said, I don't care if Sasuke trains to get his techniques - but it still makes absolutely no sense to me that he can develop that much fighting power in a few seconds just because he's full of hatred or put in a tight spot. Sheesh, at least make him say something like 'I've been working on this since the last time I used it' or something.... make it make sense. Don't just give Sasuke hax mangekyou techniques out of nowhere, just cuz he's the special Uchiha boy.

Originally Posted by james0246

(@lonewolf777, while I understand your assertion that the elemental boundries were probably created for Part II, I do not think that is a legitimate realm of discussion due to the fact that we can make a similar assertion concerning a great many other topics and characters (the Kage Bushins, Danzou, the Raikage, etc).

Fair enough, and I didn't make the statement in an attempt to undermine Kishimoto's writing - his seemingly favoring Sasuke is what was intended for that. Rather, I was simply pointing out that I don't think the chakra types were really intended to be that big of a deal until more recently. We can always talk retcons, but I assume that's not for this thread

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Well he is right, you have double standards when it comes to judging characters you instantly assume that everyone BUT Sasuke worked to gain every new thing they show but with Sasuke it is a hax asspull, even when we have seen Sasuke train more than other characters apart from Naruto.

Sasuke is a genius so he will think of new ways to use jutsus and he has more potential than Itachi and as Madara said he could be more useful than Pain, Sauske and Naruto will get stronger at least with Sasuke he has side effects and his hax is taken away with each major fight or his side effects worsen.

Actually, he is not right, and I'll tell you why in a second, but the reason I don't respond to him is because I've never received a post replying to anything I've said from him except that it was an insult. If I don't insult him first, I don't see why he gets all in my face with his nonsense and lack of manners. You, Cub-Sama, sir, on the other hand, have disagreed with me numerous times in the past, and I have no problems with that, nor you. I especially appreciate that you do so in a much less rude manner. I find this a common problem on forums in general, that kids come on just to look for fights and arguments with anyone who disagrees with them like 'OMG.. you don't think I'm right?!? You're stooopid!' It seems that if someone has an extreme opinion, he must automatically be attacked. Personally, I would avoid forums altogether if it weren't for more fair-minded posters such as yourself, Rurik, Flipskuul, james0246, aurora, Alchemist007, etc.

Anyway, without digressing too much further, I'll direct you back to my old post. First of all, I agreed that Naruto's progress is somewhat illogical at times, and his skills can be pretty hax. I also concede that it doesn't have to be training that provides Sasuke with his skills. What I've been saying up until this point is that no other character makes such huge amounts of progress like Sasuke has in such a short time without an explanation. If you can bring me an example, I will gladly agree that I'm being unfair to Sasuke. But even Naruto's sage mode, probably the most hax thing thus far (at least one of them), came with an explanation to it, even if it may not have been fully adequate. At least we know that Naruto worked on it and learned from someone, and also, the time in Toad land is distorted. If it wasn't so short ago for Sasuke, I don't care if he's the strongest character in the manga. But look at his track record in Shippuden - he hasn't been exceptionally impressive at all, except upon remeeting him when he owned Team Yamato, even though Naruto was already drained at that point. Almost everything after that was either a rough victory or a loss of some sort for him, and yet all of a sudden, in like 2 weeks, he becomes the strongest ninja in the whole Narutoverse? How does that make any sense? And who else becomes the strongest ninja in the Narutoverse after being only pretty good in one or two weeks of nothing? Since the answer is nobody, I don't see how you can say it's a double standard.

Edit: Last note for why it is not a double standard - no other character in the series, other than Naruto, receives as much spotlight as Sasuke does, so of course I'll hold him to a different criterion. You can't tell me that it's the same for Neji to have improved greatly from when he was a kid to the modern time is the same as Sasuke having improved so much after losing to Killer Bee enough to alone take on 6 elite shinobi. Or for Temari to have become a Jounin after the time skip is the same as Sasuke mastering the mangekyou after not having even been able to use it right the first time, which was not even that long ago.

[CMSensei]

Well I guess you can say we finally lost Sasuke to the Darkness..

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by CMHerrera

Well I guess you can say we finally lost Sasuke to the Darkness..

Or the Dark Side....... *no Star Wars puns intended or requested *

[CMSensei]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Or the Dark Side....... *no Star Wars puns intended or requested *

lol Yea that too..

"I can see that it all up to Naruto".... *Runs and hides*

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by CMHerrera

lol Yea that too..

"I can see that it all up to Naruto".... *Runs and hides*

Hehehe. I don't know whether to lol or -____-;

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Edit: Last note for why it is not a double standard - no other character in the series, other than Naruto, receives as much spotlight as Sasuke does, so of course I'll hold him to a different criterion. You can't tell me that it's the same for Neji to have improved greatly from when he was a kid to the modern time is the same as Sasuke having improved so much after losing to Killer Bee enough to alone take on 6 elite shinobi. Or for Temari to have become a Jounin after the time skip is the same as Sasuke mastering the mangekyou after not having even been able to use it right the first time, which was not even that long ago.

That's the thing Sasuke has not gotten any more powerful as he did last fight he is using defensive abilities to try not to die and that is it, even then he is almost worn out only thing is he is using his abilities imaginatively so to complain that he got stonger is wrong because he is still at the same strength as when he thought Kira. No upgrades just new ways of using the same MS

[Haak]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Personally, I would avoid forums altogether if it weren't for more fair-minded posters such as yourself, Rurik, Flipskuul, james0246, aurora, Alchemist007.

[noven]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

I don't deny any of what you said here, but the ending statement in parantheses is exactly the problem. As I said, I don't care if Sasuke trains to get his techniques - but it still makes absolutely no sense to me that he can develop that much fighting power in a few seconds just because he's full of hatred or put in a tight spot. Sheesh, at least make him say something like 'I've been working on this since the last time I used it' or something.... make it make sense. Don't just give Sasuke hax mangekyou techniques out of nowhere, just cuz he's the special Uchiha boy.

On this page Juugo references the fact that Sasuke had said he wanted to try something. This implies that Sasuke was at the very least aware of his powers (meaning they did not spring up just to save him) and more than likely had developed some idea of how he wanted to use them (one could call this training).

Spoiler for chapter 464:

[Rurik]

I think we reach that ohh so cool part of our interesting arguments where we say, WE agree to disagree!, but I wanted to quote this part.

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

If those would have appeared after working on it a little, instead of gaining it suddenly and rather easily, then people would have had less problems with its development. Kakashi must have worked his a** off to get that MS. If we are to assume that Sasuke is above him in that talent and genius business, why can't he do that on his own.

I’m still not sure about what you are talking about, We know basically nothing on how exactly Kakashi gained the MS (not the Jutsu itself), To this case, Sasuke gained the MS on how we know it is supposed to be gained, which it should be more or less the same way Itachi gained it when he did, so Sasuke more or less gained the MS on his own, not only he fought Itachi, which even if Itachi was doing his play to Sasuke, for Sauke it was the fight for his life.

After that Gaining in such a simple manner should be something that should be considered natural for an Uchiha that went under the stress both Itachi and Sasuke went.

Now If we go to compare Sasuke and Itachi as such, and how Apparently Itachi didn’t had a teacher to gain his abilities (non MS related) then you are debating with the wrong person, because my Bias will always shift towards Itachi. THERE I SAY IT, IM a ITACHI FANBOY, SO WHAT?????

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Somehow, after using the Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu once, he has now mastered it to a level which surpasses Itachi, who has had the Mangekyou since he was 13. Sasuke was NEVER shown to be the same as Itachi - in fact, Kishimoto has put ample emphasis into the fact that he was in his shadow when he was a kid. Even 12 year old Sasuke wasn't nearly as impressive as young Itachi was, who led the Anbu and was feared by his own clan.

I'm only quoting some parts because like I said to Figs, I think we reached the climax of the debate. (dont worry, I did read everything you posted)

Actually you can blame the author for mishandling his story telling ability (some group out there think Kishimoto is a god of writing manga and that everything he writes is perfection incarnate)

But the facts are there in the Manga, Sasuke was supposed to be like this because it has been foreshadowed since the first time Itachi name was mentioned, that Sasuke had more potential than Itachi, the difference is that Itachi lived under a different situations… You could Say that Itachi was an early bloomer who powers sufficed earlier, not to mention, Sasuke lived under a different view of things, when Itachi was already viewing the turmoil between Uchihas and Konoha and maybe had a little mind poisoning by Madara.

Sheesh, at least make him say something like 'I've been working on this since the last time I used it' or something.... make it make sense. Don't just give Sasuke hax mangekyou techniques out of nowhere, just cuz he's the special Uchiha boy.

He actually had said every time since he gained the MS, that he had something new he wanted to test. With the MS tech Hax, yeah, there are that exactly, you are Uchiha, You Gain MS, You basically Gain 3 hax Jutsus.

[Ero-Senn1n]

wrong thread...

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Rurik

I think we reach that ohh so cool part of our interesting arguments where we say, WE agree to disagree!, but I wanted to quote this part.

Has it been that many posts already?

I’m still not sure about what you are talking about, We know basically nothing on how exactly Kakashi gained the MS (not the Jutsu itself), To this case, Sasuke gained the MS on how we know it is supposed to be gained, which it should be more or less the same way Itachi gained it when he did, so Sasuke more or less gained the MS on his own, not only he fought Itachi, which even if Itachi was doing his play to Sasuke, for Sauke it was the fight for his life.

I believe Kakashi gained it through a process requiring hard work. Based on that belief, for Sasuke to be considered above the rest, he should have at least done what Kakashi had done. It would be a realistic expectation for us to put Kakashi there as the threshold Sasuke should exceed.

Kishi made Sasuke gain MS in a way that would also kill Itachi. I think, if Sasuke would have gained MS earlier, that fight would be more meaningful. Kishi didn't do Sasuke justice by treating him this manner. And this is not the only time. That is a really cheap way of making a character grow, even cheaper than what we had seen so far with Naruto and many other characters.

After that Gaining in such a simple manner should be something that should be considered natural for an Uchiha that went under the stress both Itachi and Sasuke went.

If Sasuke is a genius above the rest, he should be considered and evaluated different than the rest. And showing this by making achieve sudden growths is not helping that representation of him.

Now If we go to compare Sasuke and Itachi as such, and how Apparently Itachi didn’t had a teacher to gain his abilities (non MS related) then you are debating with the wrong person, because my Bias will always shift towards Itachi. THERE I SAY IT, IM a ITACHI FANBOY, SO WHAT?????

That is only part of the problem, not the whole.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Has it been that many posts already?

I believe Kakashi gained it through a process requiring hard work. Based on that belief, for Sasuke to be considered above the rest, he should have at least done what Kakashi had done. It would be a realistic expectation for us to put Kakashi there as the threshold Sasuke should exceed.

Kishi made Sasuke gain MS in a way that would also kill Itachi. I think, if Sasuke would have gained MS earlier, that fight would be more meaningful. Kishi didn't do Sasuke justice by treating him this manner. And this is not the only time. That is a really cheap way of making a character grow, even cheaper than what we had seen so far with Naruto and many other characters.

If Sasuke is a genius above the rest, he should be considered and evaluated different than the rest. And showing this by making achieve sudden growths is not helping that representation of him.

That is only part of the problem, not the whole.

It really wouldnt have made sense for him to have ms before the fight the whole point of the fight was for him to experience the loss needed to achieve the ms as far as kakashi we dont know how he aquired ms whether it was through training or a loss isnt known so you cant really say he should have done what kakashi did until its revealed how he got his ms

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Rurik

THERE I SAY IT, IM a ITACHI FANBOY, SO WHAT?????
.

You have major problems with grammar, punctuation and the use of upper and lower cases. That's what.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Haak

Lol, sorry to forget you and the other nice guys I didn't mention..... ack, I'm a foolish one, I don't remember much XDDD Forgive me, sir (and other sirs)!!

Originally Posted by Rurik

But the facts are there in the Manga, Sasuke was supposed to be like this because it has been foreshadowed since the first time Itachi name was mentioned, that Sasuke had more potential than Itachi, the difference is that Itachi lived under a different situations… You could Say that Itachi was an early bloomer who powers sufficed earlier, not to mention, Sasuke lived under a different view of things, when Itachi was already viewing the turmoil between Uchihas and Konoha and maybe had a little mind poisoning by Madara.

Yes, this is true. But once again, potential and growth rate are not synonymous. It is not reliable to assume that because Sasuke has more potential than Itachi that he progresses that much faster.

Originally Posted by Rurik

He actually had said every time since he gained the MS, that he had something new he wanted to test. With the MS tech Hax, yeah, there are that exactly, you are Uchiha, You Gain MS, You basically Gain 3 hax Jutsus.

Originally Posted by noven

On this page Juugo references the fact that Sasuke had said he wanted to try something. This implies that Sasuke was at the very least aware of his powers (meaning they did not spring up just to save him) and more than likely had developed some idea of how he wanted to use them (one could call this training).

Spoiler for chapter 464:

Wanting to try something is not the equivalent of having been working on something. Wanting to try something is like me saying 'I wonder if I can do a backflip', whereas me saying 'I've been working on something' implies that I put some kind of effort into learning to do that backflip, which is more than just thought. And even if Sasuke is a genius, it simply does not make sense that he would make such huge strides just on a whim or an afterthought. It's acceptable with the title of genius that he could gain some skill and technique just out of his head, but jumping like 8 levels up the food chain needs a little more than just 'I've been wanting to try something'. Whether or not Sasuke was aware of them (as I'm sure he would be, since all three of them were used on him by his brother), it didn't give ample explanation for his mastery of the two main techniques by which he could use Susanoo, nor the level of mastery of Susanoo and Amaterasu which seems to have surpassed that of Itachi, strictly on a split-second battle decision.

[noven]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Wanting to try something is not the equivalent of having been working on something.

Straw man argument? I never said he had been "working" on his abilities, reread my post. In any case, whether or not he had been working on his MS abilities is indeterminable because that time period was offscreen.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Wanting to try something is like me saying 'I wonder if I can do a backflip', whereas me saying 'I've been working on something' implies that I put some kind of effort into learning to do that backflip, which is more than just thought.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything because neither situation occurred in the manga. He neither "wondered if he could" or stated that he had been working on them. All he said was that he wanted to try them.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

And even if Sasuke is a genius, it simply does not make sense that he would make such huge strides just on a whim or an afterthought.

Sasuke's "strides" are not happening on a whim. They are the result of his battle with Itachi, the one fight that essentially summed up his character's entire motivation for the whole series. His new abilities came at a huge sacrifice, not only his lifestyle of revenge before all else, but the very life of his brother. I don't understand how people don't see the hypocrisy in accusing Sasuke of getting everything for nothing when countless other characters have received bloodline limits, tailed beasts, and other powers for "free." Even Naruto was given Sage training in a matter of days/weeks elevating him beyond sannin level before defeating arguably one of the top 3 strongest characters in the narutoverse. I don't see anyone complaining about how his forbidden KB technique that he learned allows him to learn exponentially faster, surpassing Minato in development of the rasengan at age 16. Or perhaps how Kakashi received his MS "out of nowhere" without any explanation. Such double standards are far more annoying than any inconsistencies you've claimed.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

It's acceptable with the title of genius that he could gain some skill and technique just out of his head, but jumping like 8 levels up the food chain needs a little more than just 'I've been wanting to try something'.

MS techniques have nothing to do with the user's genius or lack thereof. If Obito awakened his Mangekyo he would also have access to the same techniques. If you have a problem with how powerful the MS is, you have a problem with the sharingan, not Sasuke.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Whether or not Sasuke was aware of them (as I'm sure he would be, since all three of them were used on him by his brother), it didn't give ample explanation for his mastery of the two main techniques by which he could use Susanoo, nor the level of mastery of Susanoo and Amaterasu which seems to have surpassed that of Itachi, strictly on a split-second battle decision.

It's quite a stretch to say that Sasuke has mastered Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi much less Susanoo. The only thing we've seen him use that Itachi didn't was his Enton Kagutsuchi, and because of the limited knowledge we have on Itachi there really isn't room to say that Itachi couldn't do the same. Again, there is evidence in the story that his choice to use Susanoo was not a split-second battle decision; it was premeditated act that he had planned on trying from the beginning.

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by noven

Straw man argument? I never said he had been "working" on his abilities, reread my post. In any case, whether or not he had been working on his MS abilities is indeterminable because that time period was offscreen.

I know you didn't say that - I'm the one who said it would have made at least some semblance of sense if he had said that, to which you replied Juugou implied that he had something up his sleeve. And that may be the case, but the time period between when he fought Killer Bee and now is not that long. Basically all that happened was Naruto vs. Pein (which despite taking up 35+ chapters, was probably not even a full day long, considering there was no sun-moon change) and the Kage summit.

Originally Posted by noven

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything because neither situation occurred in the manga. He neither "wondered if he could" or stated that he had been working on them. All he said was that he wanted to try them.

Yes, and the fact that none of that happened, and yet all of a sudden, he's able to take on multiple Jounin level opponents very shortly after getting owned is what doesn't make sense in the first place.

Originally Posted by noven

Sasuke's "strides" are not happening on a whim. They are the result of his battle with Itachi, the one fight that essentially summed up his character's entire motivation for the whole series. His new abilities came at a huge sacrifice, not only his lifestyle of revenge before all else, but the very life of his brother. I don't understand how people don't see the hypocrisy in accusing Sasuke of getting everything for nothing when countless other characters have received bloodline limits, tailed beasts, and other powers for "free." Even Naruto was given Sage training in a matter of days/weeks elevating him beyond sannin level before defeating arguably one of the top 3 strongest characters in the narutoverse. I don't see anyone complaining about how his forbidden KB technique that he learned allows him to learn exponentially faster, surpassing Minato in development of the rasengan at age 16. Or perhaps how Kakashi received his MS "out of nowhere" without any explanation. Such double standards are far more annoying than any inconsistencies you've claimed.

A few comments:
1. The result of his battle with Itachi? Then why didn't that progress show up against Killer Bee? Why is it that one second ago he, with a group, was defeated, and now by himself can fight as an equal with numerous higher-level shinobi?
2. The price of his brother's life wasn't something he paid, per se, considering he wanted him dead, but furthermore, because he didn't kill him. Rather, Itachi just overexerted himself to death.
3. It's not hypocrisy at all, because no other character, as I've stated, has made as much progress in such a short time with no explanation at all as Sasuke has. Fair enough - Naruto's Sage mode training is pretty hax, and I granted that. However, this came off his fight with the two unkillables, as well as real training, so at least some type of progress is conceivable. What makes less sense - Naruto learning a few new techniques and training hard to get a new battle mode or Sasuke losing badly then becoming in the top 3 of the series power wise?
4. With things like the biijuu or Kakashi's mangekyou, those are constants which give considerable margin of benefit of doubt. If the biijuu are powerful, and the character was introduced into the series with that powerful entity at his disposal (which really isn't the case, unless they can control it like Killer Bee), then that's just the standard of the series. If Kakashi is left for three years and then three years later says 'I have a Mangekyou Sharingan', I don't see why we can't assume that he trained somehow in those three years to develop it. Tell me how this is anywhere remotely like Sasuke becoming the master of the Mangekyou in basically no time flat after having struggled to even win a single fight up to this point in the series.

Originally Posted by noven

MS techniques have nothing to do with the user's genius or lack thereof. If Obito awakened his Mangekyo he would also have access to the same techniques. If you have a problem with how powerful the MS is, you have a problem with the sharingan, not Sasuke.

It's not the hax of the Mangekyou techniques that I'm concerned with; it's the fact that Sasuke seems to have mastered them without any intelligible sign of how. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to me. Obitou would have been able to use Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu, sure, but would he have been able to master them after only using them once in a defeat? No, that privilege is reserved for the mighty Sasuke-sama.

Originally Posted by noven

It's quite a stretch to say that Sasuke has mastered Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi much less Susanoo. The only thing we've seen him use that Itachi didn't was his Enton Kagutsuchi, and because of the limited knowledge we have on Itachi there really isn't room to say that Itachi couldn't do the same. Again, there is evidence in the story that his choice to use Susanoo was not a split-second battle decision; it was premeditated act that he had planned on trying from the beginning.

Well, the canon has indicated it by saying that Susanoo could only be used by one who'd mastered both eye techniques. Furthermore, they stated that he was able to control the flames in a fashion that Itachi could not. While you're correct in saying that it is possible that Itachi could use Susanoo in the same way as we currently see Sasuke using it, it's still supposedly pretty advanced stuff, and yet Sasuke pulled it out of nowhere (once again, 'Sasuke's wanted to try something' doesn't cut it as premeditation in my book - in fact, that further implies that he had NOT trained with it, because if he had, he would already have tried it before).

[noven]

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

I know you didn't say that - I'm the one who said it would have made at least some semblance of sense if he had said that, to which you replied Juugou implied that he had something up his sleeve. And that may be the case, but the time period between when he fought Killer Bee and now is not that long. Basically all that happened was Naruto vs. Pein (which despite taking up 35+ chapters, was probably not even a full day long, considering there was no sun-moon change) and the Kage summit.

The KB fight took place during Naruto's Sage training, which took only 3 days btw. The time it took for the Pain fight was probably only 1 day, however, the events afterward and the transit time to get to the land of iron was certainly not.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Yes, and the fact that none of that happened, and yet all of a sudden, he's able to take on multiple Jounin level opponents very shortly after getting owned is what doesn't make sense in the first place.

What I'm saying is your example of him "wondering if something will work" and causing it to work is null because that is not how it happened. There is a difference between planning on using something and arbitrarily using it out of the blue.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

A few comments:
1. The result of his battle with Itachi? Then why didn't that progress show up against Killer Bee? Why is it that one second ago he, with a group, was defeated, and now by himself can fight as an equal with numerous higher-level shinobi?

This is a very poor battle to cite Sasuke's abilities considering KB represented a unique antithesis to his fighting style. Use of lightning elements was countered by KB's own mastery of lightning; his sword skills, including chidori sword augmentation, was worthless against KB's superior sword skill; his sharingan reaction times were worthless against KB's reaction surpassing speeds; and genjutsu, even Tsukiyomi was rendered completely ineffective against a host able to control his beast. Basically all of Sasuke's normal battle techniques were countered and with the ability to use CS2/white snake jutsu's he had to rely on relatively untested MS jutsus to merely survive. These abilities were the result of his fight with Itachi, and him using them in a life or death battle is equivalent to him training with them. Most soldiers, for example, will tell you that no matter how much battlefield training you do, there is little that can substitute for true combat experience.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

2. The price of his brother's life wasn't something he paid, per se, considering he wanted him dead, but furthermore, because he didn't kill him. Rather, Itachi just overexerted himself to death.

It was after he realized the truth that his MS awakened, not while he wanted Itachi dead. His brother's life is the most valuable thing to him in the series right now, it's kind of ridiculous to say that he didn't pay for his death when Konoha's leadership basically fated them to kill each other from the circumstances created at the start of the series. Itachi was a sacrifice, and the survivors of his death are the ones who pay for it every day.
Regardless of what directly caused Itachi's death, it would not have occurred had Sasuke been there, the events are inseparably linked.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

3. It's not hypocrisy at all, because no other character, as I've stated, has made as much progress in such a short time with no explanation at all as Sasuke has. Fair enough - Naruto's Sage mode training is pretty hax, and I granted that. However, this came off his fight with the two unkillables, as well as real training, so at least some type of progress is conceivable. What makes less sense - Naruto learning a few new techniques and training hard to get a new battle mode or Sasuke losing badly then becoming in the top 3 of the series power wise?

First off, Naruto's Sage mode training taking 3 days is far less time than Sasuke's acquirement of MS techniques to his current use. That's more progress in less time. His sage mode training had nothing to do with the fight with Hidan and Kazuku, nor was his development of the Fuutonrasengan contingent on this fight. He had developed the technique before that, however, this does bring up an interesting point: notice how significantly more advanced his Rasenshuriken was during the Pain fight compared to the Kazuku fight. According to Fukasaku he had not trained with it at all while in Myōbokuzan, so where's all the complaining about the hax it took to greatly improved that?

It's just silly to argue about the different ways that they have developed strength, these motifs have been in place since the beginning. Naruto has received different gifts than Sasuke: His enormous chakra pool instead of a sharingan, his forbidden KB instead of dual element mastery, his kyuubi and Sage abilities (which also hinge on his enormous chakra and being the child of freakin prophecy) instead of MS potential, his will of fire instead of sasuke's natural genius.

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

4. With things like the biijuu or Kakashi's mangekyou, those are constants which give considerable margin of benefit of doubt. If the biijuu are powerful, and the character was introduced into the series with that powerful entity at his disposal (which really isn't the case, unless they can control it like Killer Bee), then that's just the standard of the series. If Kakashi is left for three years and then three years later says 'I have a Mangekyou Sharingan', I don't see why we can't assume that he trained somehow in those three years to develop it. Tell me how this is anywhere remotely like Sasuke becoming the master of the Mangekyou in basically no time flat after having struggled to even win a single fight up to this point in the series.

Kakashi's mangekyou was a constant in the series? Everything we know about the MS says that you can't "train" your way to it, there has to be life sacrificed, which is a much higher price than just training. The point behind this is Sasuke is HARDLY the only character to receive gifts (MS potential).

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

It's not the hax of the Mangekyou techniques that I'm concerned with; it's the fact that Sasuke seems to have mastered them without any intelligible sign of how. I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to me. Obitou would have been able to use Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu, sure, but would he have been able to master them after only using them once in a defeat? No, that privilege is reserved for the mighty Sasuke-sama.

Why would you assume that he's mastered those techniques (considering he's never even successfully used Tsukyomi), or that it's difficult to "master" them for that matter. If you're going with the data book's view of

Amateratsu symbolizes the ''Light of the Material World'' while Tsukiyomi symbolizes ''the Darkness of the Spiritual World''. Those who master both can call upon the power of the raging god of battle (aragami) which is Susanoo. It's materialized chakra, taking the form of the great fighting god.

then you have to be willing to admit it's just fine for Itachi to master Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu in a matter of hours as he awakens all 3 on the same day.

Spoiler for itachi's susanoo:

So then it begs the question, what is the definition of mastery and why is it such a big deal if it's obtainable in a single day?

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Well, the canon has indicated it by saying that Susanoo could only be used by one who'd mastered both eye techniques. Furthermore, they stated that he was able to control the flames in a fashion that Itachi could not. While you're correct in saying that it is possible that Itachi could use Susanoo in the same way as we currently see Sasuke using it, it's still supposedly pretty advanced stuff, and yet Sasuke pulled it out of nowhere (once again, 'Sasuke's wanted to try something' doesn't cut it as premeditation in my book - in fact, that further implies that he had NOT trained with it, because if he had, he would already have tried it before).

The post of the databook is the only canon that mentions the subject requiring mastery, and as we can see mastery holds a very different meaning when it comes to MS use.

When making a statement like that it's important to look at your source. Shii is nowhere near an expert on sharingan or MS techniques, his reactions indicate he's never even seen amaterasu before now and his statement about Sasuke's being stronger than Itachi's is, well, not a statement, it's a question.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...27#post2652827

Using Susanoo is not pulling something out of nowhere, it is the standard the series has shown us in our limited knowledge of MS users. Itachi being the only viable example awakened his Susanoo in a matter of hours, whether or not he used it. There is more to training than just using an ability, considering the devastating effects of MS techniques on one's eyes (sasuke's vision was already blurred after only 1 session) it would be stupidly out of character for him to "train" (in your limited sense of the word) with susanoo. He was aware that he could use it and had devised a strategy to combine it with amaterasu. This preconceived meditative planning is the training. This is what separates the dogmas of hard work and genius.

[Ichimaru]

this is what i dont get

sasuke fought against deidera...and was low on chakra

now he takes on 5 kages...and not even low on chakra, hence this tool is using MS skills like multiple times whereelse itachi could only use it 2-3 times a day...

darkness?

pull a rick james biatch